'A sulken sort of satisfaction' - what does that mean ? Resentful that you feel 'under command' not to do, feel or be something ? But that doesn't mean you can't control or influence some causes/effects of events, does it ? Why would it be your memory that commands you ? Memory of your interpretations of Stoicism and a perception of failure ? What ? A Higher Self ?

Your discussions can be a sort of Socratic sustenance. Keeping on going. A source of strength and nourishment. 'A Good Stew' as @180 Proof might write :sparkle:.
Working through stuff...

I guess you can be both content and not content at the same time.
Generally, I am comfortable in my surroundings but it is natural that particular thoughts arise about unsatisfactory states. About how we might have said or acted differently - for a better outcome for self and others.

Do you find yourself tired or relentlessly under siege with discerning what life or fate has in store for you? Do you actually read to yourself affirmations every day about what to purpose to yourself in terms of ancient philosophy your intent towards and for what need? Due to this, do you struggle with a philosophical apathy to try to surmount the issue with an attitude towards life? If so, then how did it work out for you? — Shawn

I find myself tired talking or thinking about same old, same old.
And seemingly never learning a damned thing, even if I have...
It can become discouraging if you think too much about it. I think that is why Marcus, man of action, gave himself limited time to set his mind straight before the daily grind. I can't remember but didn't he write in the mornings ?
I don't read or write daily affirmations.
There is no relentless 'siege' re what life has in store...having covered most of it, I am not so concerned.
Still naturally anxious - there is a need to keep an eye on the way I think/feel.
All the better not to become overwhelmed. I think 'talking' here and elsewhere with fairly sensible and fun people with life experience can help. Just as you are doing :smile:

Here's something to reflect on, stew over:

The Stoics believed that we should live mindfully, paying continual attention (prosoche) to our ruling faculty (hegemonikon).
This is also derived from their interpretation of Socrates. The Stoics place considerable emphasis on our ability to admit our weaknesses and fallibility, by reflecting on and criticizing our own character, in a constructive manner, in order to continually improve ourselves. — Donald Robertson: 3 Ideas the Stoics learned from Socrates

https://donaldrobertson.name/2018/04/18/three-ideas-the-stoics-learned-from-socrates/

We can admit our weaknesses but to dwell in them is not a recipe for contentment...
There's a time for everything.
You wanna dance :party:

Dinah Washington: What Difference A Day Makes
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OmBxVfQTuvI

What a difference a day makes
24 little hours
Brought the sun and the flowers
Where there used to be rain

My yesterday was blue, dear
Today I'm a part of you, dear
My lonely nights are through, dear
Since you said you were mine

What a difference a day makes
There's a rainbow before me
Skies above can't be stormy
Since that moment of bliss, that thrilling kiss
It's heaven when you find romance on your menu
What a difference a day made
And the difference is you

Source: Musixmatch

*virtual hugs to music lovers everywhere *
:love: :flower: :heart:

it takes quite a lot of effort to quell the anxiety of making money enough for one's needs or taking care of a family or making time in one's schedule for appointments and family, AND on top of all this behaving in accordance with virtue. — Shawn

What do you think it means to behave 'in accordance with virtue' ?
How many do you think achieve this ?
It's not about being perfectly free from emotion, that's an impossibility.
But trying to control those harmful to yourself and others.
Like the total rage I talked about the other day. It wasn't helping me and I allowed it to take over my mind. Even with previous experience and a knowledge of different ways to manage it. We are only human. It's worse when you give yourself a hard time over it.
Negative natterings.

--------

https://iep.utm.edu/stoiceth/

'The Stoics held that virtue is the only real good and so is both necessary and, contrary to Aristotle, sufficient for happiness; it in no way depends on luck.

The virtuous life is free of all passions, which are intrinsically disturbing and harmful to the soul, but includes appropriate emotive responses conditioned by rational understanding and the fulfillment of all one’s personal, social, professional, and civic responsibilities.

The Stoics believed that the person who has achieved perfect consistency in the operation of his rational faculties, the “wise man,” is extremely rare, yet serves as a prescriptive ideal for all. The Stoics believed that progress toward this noble goal is both possible and vitally urgent.'

--------

As we've discussed before - it might be what the Stoics believed but we don't need to or follow the whole shebang.
We might not go on well or attain ALL our goals but the ability to follow a problem or decision-making process in a real and practical manner is important. Don't you think ?

Didn't we agree at one point that the Serenity Prayer, with or without a 'God', was a pretty good way to go ?

Doing the best we can...given some perfectly natural concerns and anxieties...low moods or worse. Hold on to the best, most useful ideas. Let go of the worst.

What sayest thou ?

Stoic Apathy

https://existentialcomics.com/comic/286

McFly - All About You (NHS Charity Video) During covid lockdown...

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NyDyllvEFfs

Just thought I'd drop this in the mix:

Until now, human civilization has operated within a narrow, stable band of temperature. Through the burning of fossil fuels, we have now unmoored ourselves from our past, as if we have transplanted ourselves onto another planet. The last time it was hotter than now was at least 125,000 years ago, while the atmosphere has more heat-trapping carbon dioxide in it than any time in the past two million years, perhaps more.

Since 1970, the Earth’s temperature has raced upwards faster than in any comparable period. The oceans have heated up at a rate not seen in at least 11,000 years. “We are conducting an unprecedented experiment with our planet,” said Hayhoe. “The temperature has only moved a few tenths of a degree for us until now, just small wiggles in the road. But now we are hitting a curve we’ve never seen before.” — Guardian - Earth is already becoming unlivable. Will governments act to stop this disaster from getting worse?

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/ng-interactive/2021/oct/14/climate-change-happening-now-stats-graphs-maps-cop26

With photographs and predictions.
People and countries are already affected.
What can be done, if it's not too late ?
Watch programmes - telling us what to buy - electric cars, bamboo toothbrushes, wonky veggies...?

Ah, here we go:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0010k49/shop-well-for-the-planet-series-1-episode-1

Life is busy for mum Alison and dad Alex. They have a packed schedule looking after their two active sons, seven-year-old Arthur and 11-year-old Harrison. With so much going on, trying to go green has never been a priority for them, but the pandemic and lockdown have made them rethink. Now the whole family want to try to help the planet, but they don’t know where to start.

Chris and Jo set up a pop-up shop filled with the family’s main areas of eco-concern and reveal their average carbon footprint. Alison and Alex are shocked to find out how much over the national average they currently are. To turn the family's house green, the team swap their usual cleaning products for homemade versions and eliminate some of their single-use plastic. Jordan and Chris take on committed carnivore Alex and try to convince him that going meat-free a couple of days a week doesn’t have to be painful. Can they turn him around with their simple and quick veg curry?

Melanie and Alison test eco varieties of toilet rolls, but do they stand up next to the regular supermarket options? The great British public put a range of natural deodorants to the test to see if they really do keep you smelling fresh, and another group tickle their tastebuds with Fairtrade chocolate to find out whether price makes a difference when it comes to taste. As a dog owner, Jordan wants to investigate what the impact of our pets is on the planet. He travels to Scotland to meet the owner of an eco-friendly dog food business and find out what his secret ingredient is.

Anticipating my receipt next week of the Giles Martin-remixed Let It Be Super Deluxe CD set released today, here's a mini-suite from the Fabs ... — 180 Proof

Ah, you couldn't resist after all. Knew it ! :cool:

Why all this apparent unhappiness and continued confusion over stoicism and its terminology ?

You have discussed this many times with e.g. @Ciceronianus in your thread here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/6764/why-i-gave-up-on-stoicism/p1

I think that @Ciceronianus might describe himself as a pragmatic stoic and might have a succinct and clear response to hand.

Apart from that - if you are still troubled by fixing on one philosophy as a way of thinking about/behaving in life, then why do you need that ? Certainty ? Security ?

One problem at a time.
What are your actual daily living concerns ?
We are all faced with problems, some of which we can sort out by clear thinking.
It doesn't help to get mired in some dogmatic way of living or obsession.

There will always be changing circumstances and we need some kind of knowledge so that we can adapt. Also, a certain flexibility.
A practical way to live your own life as best you can - not necessarily by some theory or handed-down practice.
Self-knowledge and the ability to see the merits or value in adopting mixed methods...
Work out what is do-able for you. Then just do it, or don't.

But you know all this already - why keep asking ?

Namely the dictums of treating one's day as if it were your last, seem pretentious through a deeper desire to be free from all excessive wants or even needs in one's life. — Shawn

I think that this is about appreciating the day as it comes. Not taking life for granted.
Not worrying too much about the future cos your end could come sooner than you think.
Look out for that 3-legged elephant on an escalator :scream:

Edit: adding this, but I think you are already well-acquainted:
https://dailystoic.com/7-stoic-tenets-to-keep-in-mind-today/

Chilling out watching Sky Arts - Paul Simon: Live in Central Park 1991.
1,000's of fans. Incredible sight and sound.

Still Crazy After All These Years: Live from Central Park, 1991 (Live Performance Video)
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yVK3tTBJze4

George Harrison - All Things Must Pass (2020 Mix / Audio)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWV4pFV5nX4

Sunrise doesn't last all morning
A cloudburst doesn't last all day
Seems my love is up and has left you with no warning
It's not always going to be this grey

All things must pass
All things must pass away

Sunset doesn't last all evening
A mind can blow those clouds away
After all this, my love is up and must be leaving
It's not always going to be this grey

All things must pass
All things must pass away
All things must pass
None of life's strings can last
So, I must be on my way
And face another day

Now the darkness only stays the night-time
In the morning it will fade away
Daylight is good at arriving at the right time
It's not always going to be this grey

All things must pass
All things must pass away
All things must pass
All things must pass away

R.E.M. - Everybody Hurts (Official Music Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rOiW_xY-kc

Everybody Hurts
R.E.M.
When your day is long
And the night, the night is yours alone
When you're sure you've had enough
Of this life, well hang on

Don't let yourself go
'Cause everybody cries
Everybody hurts sometimes

Sometimes everything is wrong
Now it's time to sing along

When your day is night alone (hold on, hold on)
If you feel like letting go (hold on)
If you think you've had too much
Of this life, well hang on

'Cause everybody hurts
Take comfort in your friends
Everybody hurts

Don't throw your hand, oh no
Don't throw your hand
If you feel like you're alone
No, no, no, you are not alone

If you're on your own in this life
The days and nights are long
When you think you've had too much
Of this life to hang on

Well, everybody hurts sometimes
Everybody cries
Everybody hurts, sometimes

And everybody hurts sometimes
So hold on, hold on
Hold on, hold on, hold on
Hold on, hold on, hold on

Everybody hurts

Songwriters: Peter Lawrence Buck, William Thomas Berry, John Michael Stipe, Michael Edward Mills
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

R.E.M. - Everybody Hurts (Official Music Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5rOiW_xY-kc

Medication + therapy first. Then philosophy. — darthbarracuda

Yes, in extremely debilitating cases and depending on cause, I think it important to first heal the brain. Treatment(s) will vary.
As you say, there's a process before one might have the capacity to think straight.

I got pretty close to offing myself several years back, some people here might remember my first posts in the old forum...I didn't need philosophy, I needed a balanced neurochemistry. Thankfully I managed to get things more or less in line, though it took years. — darthbarracuda

Sorry to hear of your experience and glad you have thing 'more or less in line'.
This suggests that there is no permanent 'cure' as such and needs continual monitoring.
I think that sounds right for any of our incapacitating mental problems. Some much more intransigent than others. 'Taking years' - to try and find whatever works best...and changing if necessary.
I hope the healing process continues well for you.

Philosophy is only helpful if you have the capacity to form rational judgements of it, otherwise it's dangerous. Very easy to put people over the edge, after which they're liable to do something stupid and hurt themselves or someone else. It's why I try to be gentle to people online, even if they get on my nerves; you never know what they are going through and what role your words might play in their fate — darthbarracuda

Philosophy - if seen as a way of life - a continual process of critical thinking with element of self-analysis can have its dangerous moments. But danger isn't always a bad thing, is it ?
I agree that exercising judgement in deciding what is of value is paramount.
Also, that we can all be more vulnerable at certain times and need to be careful in what we say and how we say it.
Philosophy is not for the faint-hearted.
Words and knowledge are key to understanding. If we only want to read or hear the things that make us comfortable, stay within our comfort zones, then stay well clear of philo forums !

It is about listening and asking questions when we don't understand, not simply dismissing...
And then going out and enjoying the trees in the breeze. Balance.
So, now outta here - good to talk :smile:

Thanks for for this 18:12 minute video of Herbert Fingarette, recorded in 2018 and wiki link.
I wonder how many had heard of this philosopher/educator/author before this was produced.

A poignant story with background music - classical and moving - as he remembers times spent with his wife, listening and holding hands. Leslie died 7yrs ago.

Now, he talks about the challenges of being lonely and dependent on others. Half of him has gone.
He conducts the music, he tells us that, "Loneliness and absence is actual part of life".
Note well, it is 'actual' not 'absolute' as per subtitles.
His wife's absence is a 'presence'.

He revises his writing re Death.
He feels his statement that 'it isn't rational to fear death' was not a good one.
From his current perspective, he thinks it is important to figure out why we are concerned with death. There is a sense of realism. Whether there's a good reason or not, the idea of dying soon haunts him. The question as so often arises - "What is the point of it all?"

This philosopher is still trying to figure out - "What is going on ?"
The issues are hard. He doesn't want death to happen, even if life is messy.
He asks why he would still want to hang around...
Concludes: there is no basic reason.
"I'm going to leave, what does it mean ?"

Apparently only now realises and marvels at the beauty, wonder and transcendence of trees blowing in the breeze. This brings tears to his eyes. Only now ?

When he wrote his books he felt he had solved problems - but thinking about death:
"...this is not resolvable. Not theoretical. It is central to existence".
Something he tells us he has failed to come to terms with.
Now, he thinks that the truth is he is existing and waiting.
"Waiting until I have to say good-bye".

--------

From wiki:

Fingarette's work deals with issues in philosophy of mind, psychology, ethics, law, and Chinese philosophy...

Fingarette also influentially applied his work in moral psychology to pressing social and legal issues, particularly those surrounding addiction. In his 1988 book Heavy Drinking, Fingarette challenges the disease theory of alcoholism popularized by groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous.

Fingarette's arguments were employed by the U.S. Supreme Court in a 1988 decision to deny VA educational benefits to two alcoholic American veterans. — Wiki: Fingarette

How on earth did a philosopher's theory come to be used in this way ?
To deny American veterans education. Outrageous.
Where was the mental health support ?
I can't imagine Fingarette would have been happy with his work being applied like this.

:cool:

BBC Radio 3
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m0010gw1

Big Cosmic Energy

Elizabeth Alker drifts to the edges of ambient and electronic music, and explores the spaces in between. This week features soaring new music that reaches up to the sky by singer Hayden Thorpe. Hayden climbed not one but two mountains to record the music video and said of the experience, “Summit fever took over us. When you’re suspended between rock and sky there’s an explosion of the senses”. Plus a cut from a luxurious vinyl reissue of The Caretaker’s series of albums that catalogue his experience of early onset dementia, and German kosmische musik pioneers Popul Vuh invite you into their expansive cinematic world.

but it says that the experiencing self seems different from Brahman, when in actuality it isn’t different. The seeming difference is the misidentification that must be overcome in order to achieve moksha (liberation). — Paul Michael

I stand corrected.

How do you know that it is a misidentification ?
How do you overcome this ?
What is moksha ( liberation) ?
What is it freedom from and to where ?

I never considered his personal philosophy much. I’m not really sure what that even is. He just got me wondering things like “what if God doesn’t exist?”

Do you still have him buried/burrowed in your head ?
— Amity

I don’t know what you mean exactly. I still like his music, at least his older stuff. — Pinprick

Thanks for your reply.
Re: being influenced by anyone.
Sometimes, songs get stuck in our heads. Like an earworm burrowing in. Usually, it's just a catchy song which begins to irritate after a while.

There can be certain cult-like elements which might send negative vibes or messages.
Interesting to consider music and its effects on our thoughts, emotions and moods...
Also, the philosophy of the musician/singer...

Good to talk :cool:

In philosophy - rich seams of both.
Ideas of value and insubstantial dreams.
In, of and sailing through the mind.

’m just a regular person with no such attainments to speak of. — Wayfarer

Glad to hear it. I thought you were some kind of a God - with all the answers re Consciousness.

From what I understand, Advaita Vedanta is a school of Hindu philosophy which claims that all that exists is one pure consciousness, or what they call Brahman. Each individual, Atman, is identical to Brahman...

To me, Advaita seems to be a form of monistic idealism, an Rupert Spira has explicitly said as much in at least one of his YouTube videos. — Paul Michael

[My underlines]

An interesting topic which I've only briefly looked at. However, turning first to the Internet Encyclopedia of Philosophy (IEP) for an overview:

The essential philosophy of Advaita is an idealist monism, and is considered to be presented first in the Upaniṣads and consolidated in the Brahma Sūtra by this tradition.
According to Advaita metaphysics, Brahman—the ultimate, transcendent and immanent God of the latter Vedas—appears as the world because of its creative energy (māyā).
The world has no separate existence apart from Brahman.

The experiencing self (jīva) and the transcendental self of the Universe (ātman) are in reality identical (both are Brahman),though the individual self seems different as space within a container seems different from space as such.
These cardinal doctrines are represented in the anonymous verse “brahma satyam jagan mithya; jīvo brahmaiva na aparah” (Brahman is alone True, and this world of plurality is an error; the individual self is not different from Brahman). Plurality is experienced because of error in judgments (mithya) and ignorance (avidya). Knowledge of Brahman removes these errors and causes liberation from the cycle of transmigration and worldly bondage. — IEP: Vedanta, Advaita

Here, the experiencing self is described as different, like 'space within a container' within space itself.
So, the individual body/self is different from Brahman. Again, the 'self' as a concept has been discussed many times...it's partly what has kept philosophy alive...since at least Plato.

--------

Does Western philosophy comment on Advaita specifically? If so, what is the general consensus on Advaita in Western philosophy? — Paul Michael

'Western philosophy' like 'Eastern philosophy' covers so many different views or visions, that it is unlikely that there is a 'general consensus' on anything.

The major metaphysical concepts in Advaita Vedānta tradition, such as māyā, mithya (error in judgment),vivarta (illusion/whirlpool), have been subjected to a variety of interpretations.
On some interpretations, Advaita Vedānta appears as a nihilistic philosophy that denounces the matters of the lived-world. — IEP: Vedanta, Advaita

The Advaita Vedānta ideas, particularly of 8th century Adi Shankara, were challenged by theistic Vedānta philosophies that emerged centuries later, such as the 11th-century Vishishtadvaita (qualified nondualism) of Ramanuja, and the 14th-century Dvaita (theistic dualism) of Madhvacharya.[293]

Advaita Vedānta and various other schools of Hindu philosophy share terminology and numerous doctrines with Mahayana Buddhism.[307][308] The similarities between Advaita and Buddhism have attracted Indian and Western scholars attention.[309][310] and have also been criticised by concurring schools. — Wiki: Advaita Vedanta

To suggest that there is 'One Absolute Truth' or 'One Pure Consciousness' and then to have other schools, variants or understandings...( as above)...has become an industry, or business, in itself.
There is plurality in the world - how can it be an 'error' ? It is what it is.

The perennial philosophy (Latin: philosophia perennis),[note 1] also referred to as perennialism and perennial wisdom, is a perspective in philosophy and spirituality that views all of the world's religious traditions as sharing a single, metaphysical truth or origin from which all esoteric and exoteric knowledge and doctrine has grown.

Perennialism has its roots in the Renaissance interest in neo-Platonism and its idea of the One, from which all existence emanates. Marsilio Ficino (1433–1499) sought to integrate Hermeticism with Greek and Jewish-Christian thought,[1] discerning a prisca theologia which could be found in all ages. [2]

Giovanni Pico della Mirandola (1463–94) suggested that truth could be found in many, rather than just two, traditions. He proposed a harmony between the thought of Plato and Aristotle, and saw aspects of the prisca theologia in Averroes (Ibn Rushd), the Quran, the Kabbalah and other sources.[3] Agostino Steuco (1497–1548) coined the term philosophia perennis.[4] — Wiki: Perennial philosophy

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But learning to realise oneself as ‘pure consciousness’ takes more than grasping at the idea; probably something like, creating a mantra around it, and repeating it 10 million times, would be more like the traditionalists recommended methodology. — Wayfarer

Have you realised yourself as 'pure consciousness' ?

Sorry, didn't see that in time. I wish Brexit could be solved with music — Olivier5

That's OK - the rage I felt that day I knew would not last but it didn't go gently.
It's been building up and the dam burst...

Thanks for all the music. It helps with perspective. Some have even more reason to be angry given their circumstances. The homeless.

To live and not to breathe
Is to die in tragedy
To run, to run away
To find what you believe
And I leave behind
This hurricane of fucking lies
I lost my faith to this
This town that don't exist — Olivier5

Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'.
— Amity
Well, it is called "the fairy garden." It summons to me places and times of magic that belong to a child, but that an adult can only remember. But that's just me; how would you describe it? — tim wood

I listened to it again, this time without watching the orchestra. I wasn't summoned to magical places that only belong to children. Adults can find magic in the music. But my mind was still in thinking mode - trying to answer the question of how I would describe it. Another time I will simply listen...

Words jotted down quickly as the music progressed:
wistful, other-worldly, lifting up, spirit lightly, sparkly, 'Peter Pan!', magical, opening-up, wide expanse, possibilities, becoming stronger, building to climax, 'There!' - destination reached.
--------

So, I wanted to find out more about Ravel's 'Mother Goose Suite'.
I hadn't appreciated that 'The Fairy Garden' was indeed the Finale.
From:
http://www.favorite-classical-composers.com/mother-goose-suite.html#:~:text=Ravel%27s%20Mother%20Goose%20Suite.%20Delicate%20Childhood%20Stories.%20The,orchestral%20ballet%20version%20made%20it%20well-known%20and%20popular.

The embedded video:
Ma Mere l'Oye: V.Tableau: Laideronnette, Impératrice des Pagodes-VI.Apotheose: Le Jardin Féerique
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vq6hAQJaRA&t=8s

--------

How does appreciation of Bruckner or a 'Manson' * enable anyone to appreciate themselves ?
— Amity
I'd answer, and not being evasive but I'm thinking you already know. — tim wood

Well, I might already know - somewhere in the depths - but it isn't obvious to me.
Following the breadcrumb trail:

Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ?
— Amity
It comes from a listening combined with an understanding of what's being heard. With Tony Bennett I simply had not understood, nor known enough to have cared. — tim wood

And hearing the Bach think little more about it - but it's a version of perfection the appreciation of which is gained through an open and attentive listening and also through the experience of imperfect or lesser versions. And there is a lot of this perfection in the world, though often realized in the mundane and the standardized and thus overlooked. And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves. — tim wood

I've bolded what I consider the key parts related to Appreciation.
Timing. Understanding. Knowledge. Care. Attention. Degrees of perfection. Comparisons. Judgements. Relating. Enabling.

Comparing different versions of the same piece is perhaps one way of finding the 'more perfect' but most times we take shortcuts and listen to a few recommendations. Time is short.
And it is in giving time to listen to others that we can gain some kind of understanding of preferences.
In music generally.

I am intrigued by what @Pinprick said about his liking for the music of Manson. Also that his current profile shows an alchemical symbol. So, a different kind of magic perhaps from the fairy garden ?
I hope there is a response to my questions, here:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/604714
All the better to understand... the gratitude and appreciation expressed.

Appreciating the other not just for who they are but how they can help us see or 'appreciate' ourselves and where we come from or stand. And where our next step might lead. Even if it is down the garden path, we can always stop and turn...

We might be in a better position to understand ourselves when we can really listen to experiences in music and life. The rhythm and pace. From beginning to end.
Our own growth and development.

So often we stand in judgement of others without truly understanding them.
None of us are perfect but that doesn't stop us being and doing the best we can.
Appreciating the chance to learn more. To become, perhaps, a better version.
Be kind to yourself. The magic of music and fairy tales are not just for children.
We all need imagination and inspiration. And other people...

Thanks for listening :sparkle:

.

...it applies to all of Bruckner's symphonies. — tim wood

You've listened to them all ?
From the little I've read, Bruckner was seldom satisfied with his work.

This apparent dichotomy between Bruckner the man and Bruckner the composer hampers efforts to describe his life in a way that gives a straightforward context for his music. Hans von Bülow described him as "half genius, half simpleton".[2] Bruckner was critical of his own work and often reworked his compositions. There are several versions of many of his works. — Wiki: Bruckner

--------

I wonder if as with me "The Fairy Garden" pulls you back to rehear and re-listen. I hear in it a remembrance, a sad, yearning, but celebratory appreciation of magic lost. As if the garden were a living temple to lost sensibilities, to be visited but never, not ever, again occupied. — tim wood

I have listened to it again. There are special qualities which I could never have described in the way you have. So poetic. Not sure I understand what you mean by 'never, not ever, again occupied'.
And why then to say '...And classical music seems to be about that...'

--------

...appreciation of music seems also about the music's enabling us to appreciate ourselves. — tim wood

I have never thought of 'music' in these terms before.
How does appreciation of Bruckner or a 'Manson' * enable anyone to appreciate themselves ?

* https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/604714

Well, it’s partly just preference; I just so happen to enjoy this type of music, but I’m sure there’s also personal reasons. — Pinprick

Yes. Preference or taste in music. Does that say anything at all about the person who links to a particular piece of music ? Or who doesn't want to try any other flavour ?
Elsewhere, I likened music to ice-cream.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/597962

That was in response to:

Music, then, a kind of portal. There is its manifest surface, the sound, but also an invitation to enter, both as far as you like, and as far as the music will take you. My own bias no doubt shared by many, is that music that has stood at least some test of time keeps more of its promises as to what it offers. — @ tim wood

So, returning to the music of Manson - if it is seen as a portal, or a way to 'transport' you - where does the music take you ? Elysian fields ?

...he basically started me on the path to “philosophy” by questioning things I had taken as true. — Pinprick

So, this has more to do with the lyrics ? The message sent out ?
From the song you linked to:

Lift you up like the sweetest angel
I tear you down like a whore
I will bury your god in my warm spit
You'll be deformed in your porn — Amity

Where is the philosophy here ?

So, I’ll always be grateful for that — Pinprick

Perhaps so. However, don't you think you were already on a 'quest' of sorts ? Questioning beliefs.
How long ago was that ?
How much have you questioned the 'philosophy' or motivation of the one you are grateful to ?
Do you still have him buried/burrowed in your head ?

But yeah, not exactly role model material. — Pinprick

Well, his role as singer/musician seems to have inspired a few admirers ?
Can we separate the product from the producer ?

Back to ice-cream.
I always preferred vanilla rather than the addition of synthetic flavours. I could add my favourite fruits or whatever for any 'je ne sais quoi'.
But then, I travelled to Italy. The land of music and ice-cream and the Mafia etc, etc....
Il gelato alla pesca. Classic with real peaches. Yum :cool:

And so many flavours and rhythms of music to listen to.
River strolling, head-banging; swaying or swearing...and so much more...along the way...

I'm not sure you could even think of Manson as a sweet.
However, from the types and tastes here:
https://www.theguardian.com/travel/2009/jul/14/learn-italian-phrases-ice-cream

Possibly - a hard, cold, icy, dark granito balsamico ?

Exactly.

Why do you ask ?

10 years learning about philosophy - and you've learned what and from where ?
— Amity

Yeah, I was going to ask this but got sidetracked. — Tom Storm

Yeah, that happens. I note that my question was not answered by @Bret Bernhoft.

And why is this important, again?

Science is like being in a dark room looking for a black cat while using a flashlight.

If that's true, then philosophy is the instructions for using the flashlight. — T Clark

And asking why the hell do I want to find a black cat in a dark room ?

I took up an interest in philosophy about ten years ago, and since then I have learned a quite a bit; relatively speaking. — Bret Bernhoft

10 years learning about philosophy - and you've learned what and from where ?

Stories of appreciation.

My own story of appreciation is about the singer Tony Bennett, in his 90s if still alive. I paid him zero attention - who cares about another lounge singer - until he published a series of collaborations with other popular singers. — tim wood

Funny thing how 'zero attention' can change to 'deep appreciation'. Is it all in the timing ?

And it strikes me - that I'll share with Amity as well - that appreciation of the other is also the other's enabling thee and me to appreciate ourselves. — tim wood

What a lovely thought. Uplifting even. Appreciate :sparkle:

Lighthouse Family - Lifted
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qPZ6CXuiHdQ

Lifted
Lighthouse Family

I'd really love to be alone without all the
Ache and pain and the April showers
But it ain't long before I long for you, like a
Ray of hope, coming through the blue moon

When it all gets dark again
The whole thing falls apart I guess
It doesn't really matter 'bout the rain
'Cause we'll get through it anyway
We'll get up and start again

'Cause we could be lifted, lifted, lifted
We could be lifted
From the shadows, lifted
Oh we could be, lifted up today
Lifted all the way, you and I forever
Baby, lifted, lifted, lifted, hey

It's undisturbable the peace we found
In a bright new space up above the clouds
Everything is understandable
You don't have to say anything too loud

When all our luck runs out again
We're brought back down to solid ground
I wouldn't say I'm mad about the rain
But we'll get through it anyway
We'll get back to the start again

'Cause we could be lifted, lifted, lifted
We could be lifted
From the shadows, lifted
Oh we could be, lifted up today
Lifted all the way, you and I forever
Baby, lifted, we could be lifted, we could be lifted, hey

We could be lifted, we could be lifted
We could be lifted, you and I forever
We could be lifted, we could be lifted
Yeah we could be lifted
We could be lifted up to new horizons

Lifted, lifted up today, lifted all the way
We could be lifted
From the shadows, lifted
Lifted upto new horizons

When it all gets dark again, it doesn't really matter 'bout the rain
Lifted (from the shadows)
When it all gets dark again, it doesn't really matter 'bout the rain
Lifted (Lifted upto new horizons)

We could be lifted (lifted)
From the shadows (lifted)
We could be lifted (lifted)
You and I forever baby (lifted)

Songwriters: Tucker, Brammer, Baiyewu
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

Harb plays BWV 565, here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtuTCy8RXg
An amazing performance. — tim wood

I missed this one.
It is just what my mood needs. Right. Now. Perfect.
Thank you :sparkle:

This one I missed. From:
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/598145
Excellent :sparkle:

Bach: Toccata and Fugue, BWV 565 - Tariq Harb, guitar (9:21)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6jtuTCy8RXg

Well maybe ...
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=2kGyunJd1D8 — 180 Proof

Well now see what you gone and done - made me smile and cry at the same time :kiss:

The Beatles - Help!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_ZzBGPdqE

The Beatles - Help!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Q_ZzBGPdqE

Help! I need somebody
Help! Not just anybody
Help! You know I need someone
Help!

When I was younger, so much younger than today
I never needed anybody's help in any way
But now these days are gone and I'm not so self assured
Now I find I've changed my mind, I've opened up the doors

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being 'round
Help me get my feet back on the ground
Won't you please, please help me?

And now my life has changed in oh so many ways
My independence seems to vanish in the haze
But every now and then I feel so insecure
I know that I just need you like I've never done before

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being 'round
Help me get my feet back on the ground
Won't you please, please help me?

When I was younger, so much younger than today
I never needed anybody's help in any way
But now these days are gone, I'm not so self assured
Now I find I've changed my mind, I've opened up the doors

Help me if you can, I'm feeling down
And I do appreciate you being 'round
Help me get my feet back on the ground
Won't you please, please help me?

Help me, help me, oh

Songwriters: Lennon John Winston, Mccartney Paul James
For non-commercial use only.
Data From: Musixmatch

After the rage. Music to calm.
Deep breaths. Let it be :sparkle:

Brian Eno - Thursday Afternoon (61 Minute Version)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggLTPyRXUKc