:fire: :100: :sparkle: :cool:

↪Gus Lamarch thank you for this. It is much needed by myself: lover of poetry, poetical philistine. — Michael Zwingli

Yes. I appreciate this thread too.
However, I have read the OP a few times now. I still don't fully understand. So unable to respond properly to the conclusion:

The conclusion reached by Ismail, and by other poets and philosophers, was that:

"Poetry comprises only an authentic metaphysics, from the moment on that its analysis is done in such a way that the linguistic poetic basis is also its development and conclusion."

Therefore, poetic metaphysics is something that can only be conceived through the incomplete visualization - not absolute but subjective - of concepts. — Gus Lamarch

@Gus Lamarch I don't know if that has been explained elsewhere - I kinda just jumped in :yikes:

Apologies if I've taken the thread off-topic. However, it is fascinating to consider.

Metaphysical poets
A group of 17th-century poets whose works are marked by philosophical exploration, colloquial diction, ingenious conceits, irony, and metrically flexible lines. Topics of interest often included love, religion, and morality, which the metaphysical poets considered through unusual comparisons, frequently employing unexpected similes and metaphors in displays of wit. The inclusion of contemporary scientific advancements were also typical. John Donne is the foremost figure, along with George Herbert, Andrew Marvell, Abraham Cowley, Richard Crashaw, and Henry Vaughan. For more on metaphysical poetry, see Stephen Burt’s poem guide on John Donne's “The Sun Rising.” — Poetry foundation: Glossary of terms

The word ‘Metaphysical Poetry’ is a philosophical concept used in literature where poets portray the things/ideas that are beyond the depiction of physical existence. Etymologically, there is a combination of two words ‘meta’ and ‘physical in word “metaphysical”.’ The first word “Meta” means beyond. So metaphysical means beyond physical, beyond the normal and ordinary. The meanings are clear here that it deals with the objects/ideas that are beyond the existence of this physical world. Let us look at the origin of word metaphysical poetry in more detail. — What is Metaphysical Poetry

I going to publish one poem in the following days. — javi2541997

:up:
en español ?

The messages of art, including poetry, are not received by interpreting it. They are received by experiencing it. — T Clark

I think both.
Here's an example of how to understand a poem and its message.

Assissi - by Norman MacCaig

The dwarf with his hands on backwards
sat, slumped like a half-filled sack
on tiny twisted legs from which
sawdust might run,
outside the three tiers of churches built
in honour of St Francis, brother
of the poor, talker with birds, over whom
he had the advantage
of not being dead yet.

A priest explained
how clever it was of Giotto
to make his frescoes tell stories
that would reveal to the illiterate the goodness
of God and the suffering
of His Son. I understood
the explanation and
the cleverness.

A rush of tourists, clucking contentedly,
fluttered after him as he scattered
the grain of the Word. It was they who had passed
the ruined temple outside, whose eyes
wept pus, whose back was higher
than his head, whose lopsided mouth
said Grazie in a voice as sweet
as a child’s when she speaks to her mother
or a bird’s when it spoke
to St Francis.

***

ASSISI by Norman McCaig
Resource by Jane Cooper.

Getting In

Before you read the poem, think about these questions:
1. If you see someone begging in a public place, what do you feel?
2. And, if you see someone begging in a public place, what do you do? Give them
money? Buy them food? Stop to talk to them? Walk away? Something else?

Meeting The Text

You are about to read the Norman MacCaig poem ‘Assisi’. As you read it for the first
time, work out the answers to these questions.
1. Where does the speaker seem to be in this poem? Be as exact as you can.
2. Which two different individual people does he notice? What are these people
doing?
3. Which group of people does he notice? What are these people doing — Poem: Assissi by Norman MacCaig - Teaching notes

From a 10 page pdf.
https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/Assisi-by-Norman-MacCaig-Teaching-Notes.pdf?

The Narcissist and the Light Stasher - by Jenni Fagan

They did not like
sunlight on your skin,

ordered you sit in the shade,
said: you are repellent

vile, they kept you pale,
insistent endless bullshit

made you wonder
if it was in fact true

the fault was yours?
Clever like that, they are.

Still, the moon
shines for you regardless

all the brighter in fact
child, you stash

light in your cells
wherever you find it

eyes like a magpie
trained to catch a glitter

on water,
reflections bright

on buildings
the long ocean glade

or shushing fields of gold,
so when the dark

falls (and it does)
after all this time

it’s die
or glow.

***

Author's note:

I rarely talk about what my own poems are about but for me poetry is the only written form where I am completely truthful.

I have been writing poetry for as long as I can remember and it is the oldest form of expression for me.

When I need to make sense of something it is often poetry that helps me to do so. When none of the other literary forms are enough — poetry is the one I reach for.

'The Narcissist & the Light Stasher' is a simple truth best told in this form. It is concerned with how ordinary people cope with extreme circumstances and how we all have choices to make in how we respond to the people in our lives. — Scottish Poetry Library - Jenni Fagan

https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/narcissist-light-stasher/

Well, here's an 'et al' to be getting on with...

Combining my recent thoughts re Ancient Greek Music, the lyre and poetry.
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/588322
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/588329

Really, I can't believe I didn't know this. Slowly it dawns.

lyric (n.)
"a lyric poem" (one suggestive of music or fit to be sung), 1580s, from French lyrique "short poem expressing personal emotion," from Latin lyricus "of or for the lyre," from Greek lyrikos "singing to the lyre," from lyra (see lyre). Meaning "words of a popular song" is first recorded 1876. — Origin and meaning of lyric

Nothing quite like an 'et al' :wink:
Always reminds me of eat all you can get !

Maybe better to separate them in separate threads? — Corvus

I don't know.
I see some members have a single thread full of 'stuff' they enjoy...

Blank verse is incredible. The rhythm of words freed from the distraction of rhyme allows the poet to explore overlooked corners of language. — Noble Dust

Thanks.
I learn something new every day. I don't think I ever heard of 'blank verse' but probably met it.

https://literarydevices.net/blank-verse/

***

Give me an example of "life is [both] ugly...good poets tell it like it is" — TheMadFool

One short example from website:

The buds luminous in white sway happily,
and sparkling valleys darkened by angst. — Literary devices: blank verse

Doesn't have to be a 'good poet telling it like it is' - just someone who can show both sides of life experience; the light and dark. You really don't know this ? :roll:

https://www.scottishpoetrylibrary.org.uk/poem/dark/

The Dark - by Carol Ann Duffy

If you think of the dark
as a black park
and the moon as a bounced ball,
then there’s nothing to be frightened of
at all.

(Except for aliens…)

— Poem: Dark

***
From same website:

In the Dark - by Robin Fulton Macpherson

God said: Let the dark be dark.
Let the stars shine properly.
And let darkness with no stars
heal the damage caused by light.

Men said: Let there be light all
night through, where there is no-one
much or no-one at all, let
the gathered haze from street-lamps,
undying brand-names, full-blaze
unpopulated windows
stain the undersides of clouds
even when nights are cloudless.

God said: Light itself needs rest.
Some things are best seen, unseen,
in darkness unhindered by
Great Light. Me, for example.

Haven't had a chance to look at these.
They're not exactly 'passing philosophical aphorisms' - why did you include them ?
Not for the first time, wondering about the title and OP of the thread...

Any passing philosophical aphorisms? Put down in this thread. — Corvus

Aphorism: a pithy observation which contains a general truth.

On their own - can be thought provoking, so why not include a couple of sentences to express your thoughts ? For example, about:

Judgments presents problems of a serious nature to both psychology and metaphysics. - F. H. Bradley — Corvus

“Research into ancient Greek music is pointless”—Giuseppe Verdi

“Nobody has ever made head or tail of ancient Greek music, and nobody ever will. That way madness lies”—Wilfred Perrett

Wrong !!

At the root of all Western literature is ancient Greek poetry—Homer’s great epics, the passionate love poems of Sappho, the masterpieces of Greek tragedy and of comic theatre. Almost all of this poetry was or originally involved sung music, often with instrumental accomp­animent. Scholars are now in a position to reconstruct from surviving documents how Greek music actually sounded. By combining this knowledge with modern analogies and imaginative musicianship we may make a start at understanding why it was thought to exert such extraordinary power...

...Now that we can reconstruct some of the sung versions of this poetry in musical form, we are bound to ask the question: how did ancient Greek music affect or interact with the texts of poetry? — Rediscovering Ancient Greek Music

15 mins of video embedded - Greek poetry was accompanied by music. Reconstruction.
At 10.40 - Text on stone with musical notations above. Wow.

J.S. Bach: Complete Lute Music -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c1XB2IorNTM

...This recording thus presents four compositions in suite form and three pieces of a different nature, all belonging to the florid repertoire of the courtly Salonmusik that was in vogue among the German upper classes at the time. Performing them is acclaimed Italian lutenist Mario D’Agosto, whose changes in tonality aim to better serve the capacities of the instrument (BWV 996 and 997, for instance, were written for the ‘Lautenwerk’, a sort of lute-harpsichord favoured by Bach) and whose embellishments are testament to the high level of ornamentation which played such an intrinsic role in baroque performance practice. — Composer: Johann Sebastian Bach Artist: Mario D'Agosto (lute)

Alla Venetiana - Early 16th Century Venetian Lute Music
Paul O'Dette

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36elpW4bnJg&list=OLAK5uy_kAJEdGo0CAkNKGY_eTcPtqiGIYoaK-OEs

A different kind of feast with friends.

Reading Plato's Symposium. The female lute players were removed. But I want to get in the mood.
Background music...

Ancient Greek Music - The Lyre of Classical Antiquity... - Michael Levy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=elERNFoEf3Y

This video features clips from 4 of my many albums of my of ancient lyre music, featuring both the actual surviving fragments of the music of Ancient Greece, as well as my original compositions for replica lyre, in a selection of some of the original Ancient Greek Modes... free PDF booklets of all the detailed album notes are available from my website:

http://ancientlyre.com/ancient_greek_...

For full details, and all the historical research behind my myriad of "Musical Adventures in Time Travel", please visit my official website:

http://www.ancientlyre.com — Michael Levy

Zucchero - Amore Adesso! (No Time for Love Like Now - Michael Stipe & Aaron Dessner)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8zgIr6meic

La Serenissima
Sabato 2 Maggio 2020 - Ore 18.00
Covid quiet.

***
Amore Adesso
Non è più tempo
di gioia e lacrime
amore adesso, ora
e non c’è tempo nel bardo
né tempo di qua o di là
amore adesso, ora
tempo per danzare
tempo per le decisioni
amore adesso, ora

Chi ci ha cambiato tutto questo
i nostri fragili giorni bui
scintille cadute su noi
curiosa luce io mi allontanai
e… col cuore in pianto andai
ovunque sia questo posto qui
io ti aspetto, lo sai

E non è più il tempo
di salmi o limiti, no
sussurri e prediche ormai

Ma chi ci ha cambiato tutto questo
i nostri fragili giorni bui
scintille cadute su noi
curiosa luce io mi allontanai
e… col cuore in pianto andai

Ovunque sia questo posto qui
io ti aspetto, lo sai
eco di voci lontane
love love love
le sento ovunque sei
ed io ti aspetto lo sai
io ti aspetto lo sai
ovunque sia questo posto qui
io ti aspetto lo sai
sì, io ti aspetto lo sai
io ti aspetto lo sai

***

English translation
Love Now
There's no more time
For joy and tears
Love now, now
And there's no time in the bard
No time this way or that way
Love now, now
Time to dance
Time for decision-making
Love now, now

Who changed all of this for us
Our vulnerable dark days
Sparks landed on us
Curious light, I wandered away
And...with a weeping heart, I moved on
No matter where, your place is here
I'm waiting for you, you know

And there's no time
For psalms or limits, no
Whispering and preaching now

But who changed all of this for us
Our vulnerable dark days
Sparks landed on us
Curious light, I wandered away
And...with a weeping heart, I moved on

No matter where, your place is here
I'm waiting for you, you know
The echoes of voices in the distance
Love love love
I hear them wherever you are
And I'm waiting for you, you know
I'm waiting for you, you know
No matter where, your place is here
I'm waiting for you, you know
Yes, I'm waiting for you, you know
I'm waiting for you, you know
https://lyricstranslate.com/en/amore-adesso-love-now.html

Toto - Spanish Steps Of Rome (Lyrics)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rmCphWLShrY

Zucchero - Il Volo - Venezia, Piazza San Marco
Nov 15, 2020
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VqULD_pk4

Ah, Venice - La Serenissima. Wish I was there...

Ci risiamo col lockdown… quindi un’altra canzone (versione speciale) per ammazzare il tempo e il Covid-19.
Abbiate cura di voi.
We're in lockdown again...so here's another song (a special version) to kill some time and to kill some Covid-19. Take care of yourselves.
Zucchero — Zucchero

Camminato per le strade
Col sole dei tuoi occhi
Ci vuole un attimo per dirsi addio... spara
Che bella quiete sulle cime
Mi freddi il cuore e l'anima
Ci vuole un attimo per dirsi addio
Per questo troppo amore, per noi
E questo bel dolore
Ti prego no, ti prego lo sai

Sogno, qualcosa di buono
Che mi illumini il mondo
Buono come te
Che ho bisogno, di qualcosa di vero
Che illumini il cielo
Proprio come te

Ho visto il sole nei tuoi occhi
Calare nella sera
Ci vuole un attimo per dirsi addio... spara
Che bella quiete sulle rive
Mi freddi il cuore e l'anima
Ci vuole un attimo per dirsi addio
Ma dove andranno i giorni e noi
Le fughe e poi i ritorni
Ti prego no, ti prego lo sai

Sogno, qualcosa di buono
Che mi illumini il mondo
Buono come te
Che ho bisogno, di qualcosa di vero
Che illumini il cielo
Proprio come te

Ohoh ohoh
Siamo caduti in volo
Mio sole
Siamo caduti in volo
Siamo caduti in volo
Mio cielo
Siamo caduti in volo

Per questo amore immenso, per noi
E il gran dolore che sento
Ti prego no, ti prego lo sai

Sogno, qualcosa di buono
Che mi illumini il mondo
Buono come te
Che ho bisogno, di qualcosa di vero
Che illumini il cielo
Proprio come te
Che ho bisogno, di qualcosa di buono
Che mi illumini il mondo
Proprio come te

Songwriters: Zucchero
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

Well, if you can call a Eurovision entry 'deep' :chin:
Winning Eurovision in 1997 for the UK Katrina and the Waves sang Love Shine a Light.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NnoikRec67k

Love shine a light, in every corner of my heart
Let the love light carry, let the love light carry
Light up the magic in every little part
Let our love shine a light, in every corner of our hearts

Love shine a light, in every corner of my dreams
Let the love light carry, let the love light carry
Like the mighty river, flowing from the stream
Let our love shine a light, in every corner of my dreams

And we're all gonna shine a light together
All shine a light to light a way
Brothers and sisters, in every little part
Let our love shine a light, in every corner of our hearts

Love shine a light, in every corner of the world
Let the love light carry, let the love light carry
Light up the magic, for every boy and girl
Let our love shine a light, in every corner of the world

And we're all gonna shine a light together
All shine a light to light a way
Brothers and sisters, in every little part
Let our love shine a light, in every corner of our hearts

And we're all gonna shine a light together
All shine a light to light the way
Brothers and sisters, in every little part
Let our love shine a light, in every corner of our hearts

Katrina & The Waves - Walking On Sunshine (Official Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iPUmE-tne5U

The Byrds - Turn! Turn! Turn!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4ga_M5Zdn4

To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time to be born, a time to die
A time to plant, a time to reap
A time to kill, a time to heal
A time to laugh, a time to weep

To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time to build up, a time to break down
A time to dance, a time to mourn
A time to cast away stones
A time to gather stones together

To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time of love, a time of hate
A time of war, a time of peace
A time you may embrace
A time to refrain from embracing

To everything turn, turn, turn
There is a season turn, turn, turn
And a time to every purpose under heaven

A time to gain, a time to lose
A time to rend, a time to sew
A time for love, a time for hate
A time for peace, I swear it's not too late

Songwriters: Peter Seeger, Adapted By Peter Link
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

Lesley Duncan - Everything Changes
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=32WsT5Z6XHM

Everything changes and fades into dust
Stay if you want to and go if you must
I couldn't hold you, I wouldn't want to
But if you feel blue, run to me

I'll make some coffee and just be around
And you can tell me what's getting you down
That's what I came for, born of the same law
Right through the same door you and me

And if your life gets heavy, I'll lighten up your day
Do my best to make you feel at one
It's the best way that I know; babe, I love you so
You know I'll need you till my life is done

Everything changes and love travels on
Melt in the sunshine, rest in the dawn
Just let it move you, that's all you can do
Open your heart and see the sun

And if your life gets heavy, I'll lighten up your day
Do my best to make you feel at one
It's the best way that I know; babe, I love you so
You know I'll need you till my life is done

Everything changes (love travels on)
Everything changes (love travels on)
Everything changes (love travels on)
Everything changes (love travels on)
https://lyricstranslate.com

LESLEY DUNCAN | SING CHILDREN SING | Charity Single 1979
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z4KRukPmfhU

Though you feel at times, you just can't win
Sing, sing, children, sing
That you give is known, so don't give in
Sing, sing, children, sing

Sing of the true way
Sing of the time
Show them the new way
Let your light shine

He who lights the fire must surely burn
Turn, turn, children, turn
From the ones who see, but will not learn
Turn, turn, children, turn

Turn from the darkness
Turn all the way
Look for the sunshine -
Then don't turn away

For everyone who doesn't stand, must fall
Call, call, children, call
And he who finds himself then finds us all
Call, call, children, call

Call to the broken
Call to the hate
Let the word be spoken
Before it's too late
https://lyricstranslate.com

Sheryl Crow - Everyday Is A Winding Road (Official Video)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khrx-zrG460

I hitched a ride with a vending machine repair man
He says he's been down this road more than twice
He was high on intellectualism
I've never been there but the brochure looks nice
Jump in, let's go
Lay back, enjoy the show
Everybody gets high, everybody gets low,
These are the days when anything goes

[Chorus]
Everyday is a winding road
I get a little bit closer
Everyday is a faded sign
I get a little bit closer to feeling fine

He's got a daughter he calls Easter
She was born on a Tuesday night
I'm just wondering why I feel so all alone
Why I'm a stranger in my own life
Jump in, let's go
Lay back, enjoy the show
Everybody gets high, everybody gets low
These are the days when anything goes

[Chorus]

I've been swimming in a sea of anarchy
I've been living on coffee and nicotine
I've been wondering if all the things I've seen
Were ever real, were ever really happening

[Chorus]

See Nietzsche's On the Use and Abuse of History for Life, how second natures become first natures. Existentialism does not fall on one side or the other of natural/supernatural, physical/metaphysical. . — Fooloso4

I'm a bit like @Wayfarer in not reading Nietzsche.
However, I don't dismiss him because I find him not to my liking.
I have tried and failed to read him, so many times.

However, given your recommendation, I searched and found this pdf file:
http://la.utexas.edu/users/hcleaver/330T/350kPEENietzscheAbuseTableAll.pdf

It's a short read at only 46 pages. Will look at it later...
He immediately got my attention with his Goethe quote. I love Goethe.

The Foreword
“Incidentally, I despise everything which merely instructs me without
increasing or immediately enlivening my activity.” These are Goethe's words.
With them, as with a heartfelt expression of Ceterum censeo [I judge
otherwise], our consideration of the worth and the worthlessness of history
may begin. For this work is to set down why, in the spirit of Goethe's saying,
we must seriously despise instruction without vitality, knowledge which
enervates activity, and history as an expensive surplus of knowledge and a
luxury, because we lack what is still most essential to us and because what is
superfluous is hostile to what is essential. To be sure, we need history. But we
need it in a manner different from the way in which the spoilt idler in the
garden of knowledge uses it, no matter how elegantly he may look down on
our coarse and graceless needs and distresses. That is, we need it for life and
action, not for a comfortable turning away from life and action or merely for
glossing over the egotistical life and the cowardly bad act. We wish to use
history only insofar as it serves living. But there is a degree of doing history
and a valuing of it through which life atrophies and degenerates. To bring this
phenomenon to light as a remarkable symptom of our time is every bit as
necessary as it may be painful. — Nietzsche - On the Use and Abuse of History for Life

I detest don't read Nietszche. — Wayfarer

Why wouldn't you want to read something recommended which might 'increase or enliven' activity as well as instruct ?
You must have read, or tried to read, some Nietzsche before deciding he wasn't 'for you'...

No need to reply @Wayfarer, I know you're elsewhere.
The question is not only for you, anyway...but for myself and others who might shy away even at the mention of Nietzsche.

@Fooloso4's words would seem most relevant to the discussion:
'Existentialism does not fall on one side or the other of natural/supernatural, physical/metaphysical.'

Does the Nietzsche pdf show this, I wonder...

Pattern Recognition as the Essence of Philosophy

I'll take a quick early morning stab at this...

What is meant by the 'essence' of something?
The property needed to make it what it is.

What is philosophy?
A process of critical thinking. a way of thinking, with a view to a deeper understanding of life and our place in it. A study of fundamental questions posed which might help in more effective decision-making.
Involves: awareness or identification of a problematic issue; reflection and reasoning; responding by selecting best possible action, given current knowledge and experience. Consideration and evaluation of effects/results.

This kind of thinking process can be repeated as often as necessary.
We can begin to recognise patterns of thought.
Patterns which can be described as negative, positive or neutral.
Depending on circumstance and context.

A negative thinking pattern might be our 'usual' way of thinking *
Sometimes, we need help to see beyond our own patterns or those of society.
We can ask if our thoughts are helpful or harmful.
The essence of philosophy? Also, psychology, sociology - anything related to aspects of being human and making sense of the world.

We want to have the best or healthiest body/mind/spirit possible.
Knowledge is the key and power which enables this.
This, arguably, requires recognition of patterns and ways to think outside the box of patterns.
The aim is to survive - in a better way. Processing philosophically or otherwise.

--------
* https://thebestbrainpossible.com/negative-thinking-depression-mind/

Thanks for posting Zucchero's 'Wonderful Life' :sparkle:
Of course, life isn't always wonderful but music can make it so, for a moment at least.
The lyrics talk about magic being everywhere - hmm.

Music helps us be alone with our thoughts. It transports us to a magic world, to a place where everything becomes more tolerable. A place where we can cry until we dry up or smile until we’re sore. — exploring your mind - the magic of music

Wonderful Life
Zucchero
Here I go out to sea again
The sunshine fills my hair
And dreams hang in the air

Gulls in the sky and in my blue eyes
You know it feels unfair
There's magic everywhere

Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Up straight in the sunshine

No need to run and hide
It's a wonderful, wonderful life
No need to laugh and cry
It's a wonderful, wonderful life

The sun in your eyes
The heat is in your hair
They seem to hate you
Because you're there

I need a friend
Oh I need a friend
To make me happy
Not stand here on my own

Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Up straight in the sunshine

No need to run and hide
It's a wonderful, wonderful life
No need to laugh and cry
It's a wonderful, wonderful life

I need a friend
Oh, I need a friend
To make me happy
I'm not so alone

Look at me standing
Here on my own again
Up straight in the sunshine

No need to run and hide
It's a wonderful, wonderful life
No need to laugh and cry
It's a wonderful, wonderful life

No need to run and hide
It's a wonderful, wonderful life
No need to run and cry
It's a wonderful, wonderful life

Wonderful life
Wonderful life
Wonderful life

Songwriters: Colin Vearncombe
For non-commercial use only.
Data from: Musixmatch

Thank you both for your replies. Illuminating in their own way.
I have no wish to disrupt this thread any further, so I won't comment on everything mentioned.
Just this - about repetition and weariness.

It is inevitable that repetition happens within decades of discussions about same topics.
Some simply refer back to previous posts, others take time to explain. It can be frustrating if only 'canned' responses are produced. Others can be dismissive of newcomers' questions and lose patience.
Whatever.

There's also the repetition of ongoing personal issues; continuing attacks on the person because of a major and basic difference in worldview. Particularly obvious when there is strong atheism v theism.

Sometimes, I feel that warring with or active dislike of a person can overtake the love of philosophy.
It's difficult not to be aggravated - that is par for the course.
I'm not saying anything unusual here.

It becomes tiresome when people repeat the same phrases - like 'peddling woo'.
What is that all about ? Meant to insult.
But most want to set out a stall of ideas - who will buy or pass on...
For some, higher stakes are involved.

Most times, I enjoy the diversity of characters and topics on TPF.
Agreements/disagreements showing creative thinking and genuine interest.
The passion or 'eros'. The continuation of enquiry.

Repetition of a certain kind can be extraordinary. Just like our lives. Our different paths.
In art, music, bird songs. In philosophy.
I think Plato and a few other philosophers have something to say on the subject.
They might even have repeated themselves...

Lovely, thanks.
But I didn't find it relaxing. Too intent on watching the physical movements of speech and wondering about the communication. Fascinating.
--------
I clicked on this one because the title 'Enchanted Forest' reminded me of a relaxation cassette I used a long time ago...

4K HDR Enchanted Forest - Blackbird Singing - Springtime Bird Song - Relaxing Nature Video & Sounds

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mA5THpy0zsg

A familiar experience on wood trails.
In my case, listening to but not seeing the birds.
A pity video can't capture the scents. Nothing like a forest smell - warm leaves after a shower.

The air in the forest smells good. It may smell like damp moss, rain, wet tree trunks, flowers, and needle-covered path.
It may smell like a tree stump that is already creating new life, or even snow, frost, and softwood.
According to a research, just five hours per month in a forest will greatly improve our mental health. What about, say, five hours per week, then? — Finnish forest

Plato's Symposium
In Our Time
(with links and Reading List)

Melvyn Bragg and his guests discuss Plato's Symposium, one of the Greek philosopher's most celebrated works. Written in the 4th century BC, it is a dialogue set at a dinner party attended by a number of prominent ancient Athenians, including the philosopher Socrates and the playwright Aristophanes. Each of the guests speaks of Eros, or erotic love. This fictional discussion of the nature of love, how and why it arises and what it means to be in love, has had a significant influence on later thinkers, and is the origin of the modern notion of Platonic love. — BBC Radio 4 - In Our Time, Plato's Symposium

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b03mhyzk

Wondering who I would invite to a Symposium...to talk up Love...or War.
Who here would like to make a speech ? Hmmm...
Think I'll read the Symposium first.

Listening to R2 - Pick of the Pops 1979.

Earth, Wind & Fire - After The Love Has Gone (Live)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7tuJfud4W6U

You sure live up to your forum name! — Wayfarer

Sometimes :wink:
Will listen later to your other and new songs :cool:

You need to notice that calling other folks’ philosophy « woo » is disrespectful, condescending and useless. — Olivier5

I would be surprised if @180 Proof didn't know that it is disrespectful and condescending.
It isn't helpful - neither are the emoji exchanges - but it may have its use to him.
I don't think laying down challenges to have a debate then being dismissive when the other person declines is a helpful way forward either.

Both @Wayfarer and @180 Proof are long-standing and productive members of TPF.
So why all this increased aggro right now ?

Respect is important.

Thought I'd revisit this one.
From @Wayfarer: https://thephilosophyforum.com/profile/7/wayfarer
'Wayfarer's Soundcloud Page - all original compositions, written, played, produced by myself, with guest vocalists and instrumentalists.'

https://soundcloud.com/jonathanshearman/the-reason-why-1

A love song to Sophia, the spirit of wisdom.

Elizabeth Carthew Vocal, John Morrison drums, Natalie Morrison bass, Jonathan Shearman © composer and piano.

Thanks for all creative production and discussions over the years. Appreciated :sparkle:

'Sands of Time' - the blame game re Afghanistan withdrawal.
[ Note the scapegoat ]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/picture/2021/aug/25/martin-rowson-on-joe-bidens-foreign-policy-cartoon

Some BTL comments:

By 24/08/2021, the US have evacuated over 57,000 people within 9 days, while the UK hope to airlift up to 1,800 British nationals, 2,000 Afghans who worked for the UK, and a list of civil society leaders and former government officials compiled at the last minute. The US also evacuated 70,700 people since 14 August, 2021. In a Guardian Editorial, it states that the proposed dates for the US withdrawal were already known at the time of the June G7 conference. Why is British government woeful failure written about by half baked British Columnists across UK Newspapers as US diplomatic failure!? Why is it the first rule of thumb in the UK is to look for an outsider to blame for UK’s failures? I know why there is an ingrained culture sense of superiority, entitlement and victimhood within British ruling class of which journalists and politicians are Birds of same feathers.

--------
The scapegoat, by Holman Hunt reminds us of how everyone blames everyone else, while the sands of time erode everything.

That could not be truer and this cartoon shows, not a furcup, but a glass cup, loaded, at least in part, with the sort of stones that Biden might love to throw, but it would break the glass, his home, everything.

--------

Holman Hunt:
https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/william-holman-hunt

While still a student Hunt read John Ruskin's 'Modern Painters' in 1847 and became influenced by the idea of a moral purpose for art. Ruskin also encouraged artists to carefully study nature and Hunt embraced this practice. Hunt's style is easily distinguished from other Pre-Raphaelite painters by the emotional intensity of his characters and his choice of mainly religious and moral subjects. — About Holman Hunt artist

:sparkle:

Everly Brothers- "All I Have To Do Is Dream/Cathy's Clown" 1960 (Reelin' In The Years Archives)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lTYe9eDqxe8

From Neil Young to Keith Richards, a generation of musicians revered Phil and Don’s haunting music.
US music star Don Everly dies aged 84.

Among the hundreds of hours of outtakes from the recording sessions that eventually became the Beatles’ Let It Be album, there is a version of Two of Us, taped on 25 January 1969. As John Lennon and Paul McCartney harmonise, the latter says to the former: “Take it, Phil”, a reference to Phil and Don Everly, the duo upon whom the pair had originally attempted to model themselves. On an early holiday, Lennon and McCartney attempted to impress local girls by telling them they had a band back home and they were “the British Everly Brothers”. — The indelible influence of the Everly Brothers

Still don't see it, sorry.
Never mind.
I'll keep doing what I'm doing...
No matter.

Y'all do realize you just have to highlight the youtube link you copied and hit the "media" button in order to create an image link, right? — Noble Dust

No. I had no idea.

I've literally not listened to any music either of you have posted for this reason. — Noble Dust

Now you tell us :roll:
Can hardly credit people not clicking on a link...to share the ecstasy :razz:

Edit: tried it but I don't see any 'media' button. Ah well...

Catch You On the Flip Flop"
— Amity
Slap and Tickle
— Amity

Curious selections. — Hanover

Yeah, curiosity killed the cat, or the baby. See Short Story - 'Dead Baby Shoes': https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/11523/dead-baby-shoes/latest/comment

Squeeze (Slap and Tickle) TOTP 1979
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRW6Qtj7ZZM

She was frigid like a bible
When she met her boyfriend michael
He took her in his zephyr
They sat like salt and pepper
Looking out across the city
From lover's leap is pretty
The lights they flick and flutter
He told her how he loved her
Next night he called for her
But dad protected daughter
And told him she was poorly
A lie was told there surely
So michael felt rejected
This wasn't quite expected
He drove off to his local
Where he felt anti-social
She cried all night at missing
The boy she could be kissing
While he was falling over
He drunk himself back sober
And went home in a taxi
And crashed out in the back seat
He slept just like a baby
Which he hadn't done just lately
He saw her in the morning
Out with his sister pauline
She felt all shy and soppy
He acted cool and cocky
He said tonight at charlie's
There's going to be a party
I'll meet you at half seven
She visualised the heaven
If you ever change your mind
Which you do from time to time
Never chew a pickle
With a little slap and tickle
You have to throw the stone
To get the pool to ripple
That night they danced together
It looked like love forever
He put his hand on her leg
You should have heard what she said
He tried again much later
It seemed to aggravate her
He drove home in silence
Avoiding all violence
She said let's watch the city
From lover's leap is pretty
I think i need the fresh air
She put a comb through her hair
Then while she turned to kiss him
And very nearly missed him
She put her hand on his leg
He felt her tongue in his head
If you ever change your mind
Which you do from time to time
Never chew a pickle
With a little slap and tickle
You have to throw the stone
To get the pool to ripple

Songwriters: Difford Christopher Henry, Tilbrook Glenn Martin
For non-commercial use only.
Data From: Musixmatch

Rod Stewart - Rhythm of My Heart (Official Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MmljreTAgYI

Across the street, the river runs
Down in the gutter, life is slippin' away
Let me still exist in another place
Runnin' undercover of a helicopter blade
The flames are gettin' higher in effigy
Burnin' down the bridges of my memory
Love may still be alive somewhere, some way
Where they're downing only deer
A hundred steel towns away

Oh, the rhythm of my heart
Is beatin' like a drum
With the words "I love you"
Rolling off my tongue
Oh, never will I roam
Now I know my place is home
Where the ocean meets the sky
I'll be sailin'

Photographs, kerosine
Light my darkness, light it up, light it up
I can still feel the touch
Of your thin blue jeans
Runnin' down the alley
I've got my eyes all over you baby, oh baby

Oh, the rhythm of my heart
Is beatin' like a drum
With the words "I love you"
Rolling off my tongue
Oh, never will I roam
Now I know my place is home
Where the ocean meets the sky
I'll be sailin'

Oh, I've got lightning in my veins
Shiftin' like the handle of a slot machine
Love may still exist in another place
I'm just yankin' back the handle, no expression on my face

Oh, the rhythm of my heart
Is beatin' like a drum
With the words "I love you"
Rolling off my tongue
Oh, never will I roam
Now I know my place is home
Where the ocean meets the sky
I'll be sailin'

The rhythm of my heart
Is beatin' like a drum
With the words "I love you"
Rolling off my tongue
Never will I roam
Now I know my place is home
Where the ocean meets the sky
I'll be sailin'

Songwriters: John Joseph Capek, Marc Jordan
For non-commercial use only.
Data From: Musixmatch