Reviving the short story competition seems a good idea to me as long as admins are allowed to participate. :up: — Baden

Here's a challenge for you.
Write 1. a short philosophical essay on ''Creativity' AND 2. a short story concerning creativity.

I thought that Baden's post offered technical guidance. This doesn't make it wrong, of course, or unhelpful either. Your OP targeted writing, but also specifically referenced creative writing. All the technical help in the world won't make us creative. But, I suspect, creativity can't be learned. We can sharpen up many aspects of our writing with technical stuff, even the most creative of us (?), but they won't enhance our creativity. I think this is why there are so many good writers, but also why so few of them are truly creative. Creative writing is a rare skill. I can think of few who are truly capable. Alan Watts is the best example I can think of, although (perhaps) his greatest skill is in the spoken word. He can explain stuff that others can't seem to, in a spellbinding way. The creative bit is not the explanations, which are exemplary, IMO, but in the spellbinding bit. His words are entrancing, and his use (and choice) of words as good as any poet I have ever read. — Pattern-chaser

No. It didn't specifically reference 'creative writing'.
Here it is again:
' I would be interested to hear about how we progress from critical reading, thinking to creatively writing.
Including the practical aspects of note-taking. How do writers tackle writing articles such as the above ?'

I spoke of 'creatively writing'. Do you see the difference ?
Baden also wrote: ' ...you can be creative within the confines of just about any text type to a degree'.
So any philosophers can get creative during the whole writing process.
The guideline of : 'formulate a rough thesis' can be rewritten as 'create a rough thesis' that would require some creative thinking - producing an idea. A thesis is a created item, new to you.

I think the whole concept of 'Creativity' worthy of an essay or story.
How about it ?
Perhaps there could be a competition between creative philosophers and creative storytellers :chin:

Why not expand this into a "Short Story" writing contest? — ArguingWAristotleTiff

Why not indeed :cool:
It could well be included in any 'Writing groups' section.
My thoughts weren't initially around creative writing as in fiction. However, whatever sparks sparks :fire:

Here's one path you could make use of in writing a philosophical article:

1) Formulate a rough thesis...
— Baden

I would be interested to hear about how we progress from critical reading, thinking to creatively writing.
— Amity

The technical aspects of writing are important, just like brush techniques are important for an artist. We need to learn these techniques before we can create writing or art, but they aren't sufficient. Creativity is infinitely more than mere technique. — Pattern-chaser

Creativity is huge. And yes it much more than technique.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creativity

'Creativity is a phenomenon whereby something new and somehow valuable is formed. The created item may be intangible (such as an idea, a scientific theory, a musical composition, or a joke) or a physical object (such as an invention, a literary work, or a painting).'

I am not sure why you chose the quote by Baden ?
'Formulating a rough thesis'. Do you see that as a technical or creative aspect in the writing process ?
Doesn't the provision of a structure aid in creativity ?
Can you explain further what you mean. This interests me.

Essays

On a search, this type of feedback is the kind of thing that could be included in a 'Writing Philosophy' section ( or 'Writing groups' beside 'Reading groups' under the 'Learning Centre' ).

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/2364/university-marking-philosophy-essays-harshly
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4691/review-of-my-philosophical-essays
https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4408/various-philosophy-essays-critique-me-up

So, a separate space with guidelines, book recommendations - to develop writing skills in philosophy.
What's not to like ?
Thoughts welcome.

I keep notes when discovering by thinking. I than take those notes and try to get other people to comment on them, so I can think more clearly and develop my thoughts further. — Josh Alfred

You are in the right place ! It's good practice to get from self taking note(s) to sharing/comparing with others via writing. Even as you write you think and can change your mind...
Yes. It is all about development and growth - we can only do our best. As you say, with our background materials and ongoing stimulus.

Writing is powerful. Poetry is something I never considered until I took a class in college, though it is what lyrics are. There's so so much to explore. — Drek

If poetry (writing) is something you never considered until you took a class in college, how do you feel your thinking/philosophy would improve if there was a Writing Philosophy group or class ?

As you say, writing is powerful. In so many ways.
Have you ever considered writing a philosophy article or essay based on your reading, your studies, your thoughts about a particular subject ?

Writing for February. Theme: Love :love:
Writing for March: Madness :smirk:

If my memory serves me right, I had the Submit an article for publication discussion pinned at the top of the forum for a year or more, and we got almost nothing. — jamalrob

Interesting. So it Isn't that people don't see it. What other reasons could there be for lack of an article submission ?
Perhaps:
1.Those that have the ability to write such simply weigh up the pros and cons and don't think It's worth it. Wouldn't they be looking at publishing in a physical, established magazine like Philosophy Now.
I am not sure about the monetary reward. I think someone once told me that they receive a free annual subscription. Are there copyright issues ?
2. Some might be put off by the wording and don't feel ready to Submit. Encouragement and feedback throughout the writing process might produce more results.
3. An initial stimulus or prod suggesting a theme that members could compete in writing about.

Just a few thoughts. It would be good to hear other points of view.

I think the 'articles submissions' could be positioned alongside heading of 'Writing Philosophy' or 'Writing club'. Writing for January. Theme: Resolution.
Something like that ?

[ BTW this forum is the best one I have found to encourage flow of thoughts and ideas. Lovely mix of threads and interests. Informative and inspirational. Challenging and creative.
Thanks to all involved. Keep up the good work. ]

1) They need to be pretty good to be published.
2) We don't promote the articles section enough.
3) It takes a fair degree of commitment and effort to write a philosophical article. — Baden

1. As a matter of interest, how many articles have been submitted ?
If they were not good enough, how good was the feedback and encouragement to resubmit ?

2. Why not ? You editors need to get going. Why not submit ideal examples?

I did find it difficult to find information about articles. It comes under 'article submissions' stuck between 'Feedback' and 'About TPF'. The headline 'ARTICLES' at top of page only takes you to the one and only article ever published ( as far as I can remember ).

3. Yes. It always struck me that even a 2000 word essay didn't adequately reflect the hair-tearingly hard work involved..

Why not conversations On Writing ?
— Amity

Good idea. — Baden

Thanks. I get them every now and again. It's putting them into practice...
So how would that work in this forum ?
I note 'Reading groups' are in the 'Learning Centre' section.

Your excellent advice above could be the starting point for a pathway to write philosophy.
From a beginner's first posts to a more academic article. Some might not want to commit to or have the ability to write the latter. It's pretty ambitious and perhaps more people would be inclined to tackle an essay.

Just as in the 'reading group' where there are those who can lead, comment and contribute to a structured discussion, there could be similar in a 'Writing philosophy' group ?

It would give practice in the whole philosophical process with something to show at the end.
That would be more of a stretch than writing posts...but something to aim for...perhaps...

We'll be setting up a thread here on the forum for artistic work, and we don't intend to publish poems or stories on the Articles site, at least to begin with. Our vision is of a philosophical journal tackling issues in academic philosophy, but one that is accessible to educated lay-people and sometimes relevant to topical concerns. If we do decide to publish poetry or stories in the future it will be in the context of a site that has built up a solid archive of substantial philosophical articles.

As for length, between around 2000 and 5000 words is good, but that won't be strict: the first article, published two days ago, is over 6000 words, and I can imagine shorter pieces being sometimes suitable too. — jamalrob

So what happened ?
I have more questions about this, here:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4858/critical-thinking-and-creativity-reading-and-writing


' This forum might be a good place to start developing writing skills in argument.
Here's an example. It also reconstructs arguments in to logical structure. Premises and Conclusions.
How great is that !?

http://articles.thephilosophyforum.com/the-argument-for-indirect-realism

How interesting would it be to ask the author about the whole philosophical process.
From initial idea, reading, note taking to end product.'

----------

Understanding the whole process would be invaluable.
We have book discussions regarding interpretation and understanding what we have read. The content.
Why not conversations On Writing ?

I would be interested to hear about how we progress from critical reading, thinking to creatively writing.
Including the practical aspects of note-taking. How do writers tackle writing articles such as the above ?

Is there a reason why there aren't more articles ?
Any authors who would care to share the process so that others might try....'

It kinda got to be popular too... — Drek

:)
Yes I did notice.

I'm pretty poor at keeping journals. And haven't studied for a while. So not been particularly motivated to keep notes with a view to writing. Taking notes while reading can distract me.
Your way of using Evernote to summarise what you have learned shows discipline.
[ Might look at using that when I tackle Plato ! ]
Best wishes.

Blog maybe? That would be worth it. — Drek

Yes. Interesting idea.
I did think of that once but never quite worked out what to do. Or if it would be worth it.
Why do you think it would be worth it - what is your experience of blogging ?

I know what you mean about asking the author. The whole process is foreign to me. — Drek

Thanks for inspiration. I've started a new thread:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/4858/critical-thinking-and-creativity-reading-and-writing

That's a good idea to turn what you've read into an essay... — Drek

Other than writing essays to show your understanding of what you have read, have you tried to write an article?
I think there comes a time to take head out of books. Use what you have learned or experienced to start thinking/writing for self. I am still working on that one...

This forum might be a good place to start developing writing skills in argument.
Here's an example. It also reconstructs arguments in to logical structure. Premises and Conclusions.
How great is that !?

http://articles.thephilosophyforum.com/the-argument-for-indirect-realism

How interesting would it be to ask the author about the whole philosophical process.
From initial idea, reading, note taking to end product.

I would say classifying will power as an energy thing dismisses it's complexity. — LuckilyDefinitive

Yes. We have had quite an interesting discussion from various perspectives. A good summary might be useful at some point.
So, what is your view of 'willpower' both as a concept and how it operates in life ?
How do you understand it ?
Thanks.

For some philosophy is a way of life, what Socrates calls the examined life. — Fooloso4

Yes. That is my view of philosophy. As you have suggested in a few threads, there is a tradition of philosophy as therapy. Which philosophers help best ? Who would be in the top 10 ?

I understand the inclusion of Socrates. But Wittgenstein ? Really ? How so ?
I would count Marcus Aurelius.The Stoics. Anyone who can offer insight into how to live well with a degree of self-knowledge based on life experience. No academic degrees necessarily required.

is it as simple as picking up a book and reading it? Is there any other mystery behind it? Do you test yourself or summarize? — Drek

This ties in with your question re Argumentation. I watched a few of the lectures on critical reasoning. Trying to follow the logic behind deductive and inductive arguments reminded me how I struggled with it.

Rather than give up the whole enterprise of philosophy, I recognised my weakness at logic. I now simply try to find the main thrust of a point of view ( conclusion) and then look to see what the supporting evidence is ( the premises ). I then analyse starting with 'Is it true that...'

As a philosophical explorer, rather than a strong believer - I start with a feeling about something - or a critical thought that something isn't right here. So, a question starts the process. Writing on a forum is a good way to challenge and be challenged. As long as you don't take things personally !
If I do have a particular view, then I give it and try to support it with 3 reasons.

Reading. Following and Understanding. As you probably already know, it is never all that simple. Particularly dense philosophical books or some convoluted articles.

 

I read and take notes (Evernote) and try to study the notes periodically. — Drek

Note taking has always fascinated me. How best to do it so that there is not an overwhelming amount or too little to make sense on a reread.

Some people use mindmaps. I think it depends on what kind of a brain you have.
I eventually sussed out an Outline tool which then proved useful when I in turn had to produce an essay.

Other very helpful ideas came from here:

https://legacy.earlham.edu/~peters/courses/notes.htm

I share your interest in how others navigate their way through reading. Especially if they wish to start a discussion.
Great questions, very motivating.

Found the guy I found useful a good few years ago.
Quite a number of videos here. You will have to scroll down to find the one on critical thinking. And others on logic.

https://m.youtube.com/user/teachphilosophy/videos

This is amazing! Gobble Gobble. — Drek

:)
Well I haven't gobbled it yet but I do hope it is useful.
I have 2 books on critical thinking taking up space on my shelves. Bought years ago, and now can't remember if they helped me at all.

1. Critical thinking by Kirby, Goodpaster and Levine
2. An Introduction to Philosophical Analysis by John Hospers.

I wish I could find the YouTube tutorials on practical logic which were excellent.
Anyway, while searching I found this. One tutorial out of 10.

https://philosophy.hku.hk/think/critical/video.php
Brilliant succinct videos.
1. 5 mins images, words and voice.
2. 2 minutes of Bertrand Russell. Message to future generations.

http://podcasts.ox.ac.uk/nature-arguments

I note in addition to video, other media includes audio and a downloadable document in the form of slides.

A related question is who it is that you wish to defend them to and against? — Fooloso4

That's an excellent question which just happens to begin the lecture series by Oxford University's Marianne Talbot ( see link in previous post). She poses it to the students, immediately involving them with a nice mix of serious and humour.

Seems like a lot of people have a Master's in philosophy or more, but can anyone give me some laymen books in order to argue and defend my beliefs? Intellectual self-defense?

I have an AA in Liberal Arts and an AS in Business... that's the extent of my formal education. I've read a few basic critical thinking books, and had 3 Philosophy classes (Logic, critical thinking, and Ethics). — Drek

How many people here have a Master's in philosophy?
Compared to how many beginners or middlers ?

To argue against and defend beliefs I think takes practice which is not always found in books.

I've been looking online - it's good to do your own research to find out what might best fit your specific needs. The Resource section here is a great start.

I found this:

http://www.openculture.com/2014/02/oxfords-critical-reasoning-for-beginners-will-teach-you-to-argue-like-a-philosopher.html

I only listened to the first 5 mins but impressed by the initial questions and humour. Will be taking a closer look.

Following a trail from the Resources section.
[ Some free ebooks might not be the best translation of a work. However, they can provide a starting point]

http://www.openculture.com/free-philosophy-ebooks

Unfortunately, some of my earlier threads on Schopenhauer's WWAR or the Tractatus died out. I hope, therefore, to propose a reading group thread where we can have an active discussion about what new books to read or talk about. — Wallows

I have tried different ways to discuss a book I am currently excited about, as a beginner.
Basically it was my trip and others could join in as fellow beginners or as guides along the way.
Another way was to find a free online course based on a lecture series involving book, video, audio and transcript.
BTW, The resources section in this forum is wonderful. Thanks.

I think the success and failure of online groups depend on many factors. Different abilities, personalities and so on.
So you could look at why some threads die out, others stumble but move along, following a structure.

I found this suggestion which might be good for beginners.
From :
https://www.reddit.com/r/askphilosophy/comments/3i9lac/help_on_starting_a_philosophy_club/

'As a slightly casual thing, like a weekly discussion group or something: get a hold of a copy of The Pig that Wants to be Eaten (Amazon link here), read through one entry per week (maybe with Baggini's discussion, maybe without), and have a discussion about it.'

'The book that got me into casual philosophy and generally the embodiment of what I love in philosophy.'

There are so many indictments of character made in varying levels of subtlety that make me think I am not just being sold a bill of goods but am reading a diagnosis. — Valentinus

I wonder if you can show me any examples. I am interested in reading the Republic.
Also fascinating piece of serendipity that we both just talked of 'diagnosis'.

a person can get conflicted within, torn up and undecided. — Metaphysician Undercover

Indeed. And much more besides.
There are so many ambiguous terms, conflicting views and arguments in philosophy that we might never get off the merry-go-round.

I think what matters is how concepts are applied in real life.
Especially at this time of year when resolutions get broken as soon as they are made.
You got no willpower, babe !
This kind of negative message can stick in a person's head.
Sometimes aggravating an already poor self-image.

Philosophy as in questioning the 'diagnosis' might help if the person has the confidence, knowledge and experience so to do. Or access to external resources who aren't interested in playing word games just for the sake of it.

Whenever philosophy is biased towards anything other than truth, it is not true philosophy.
— Tzeentch

This looks to me like epistemic and value claims hiding within a tautology hoping to go unnoticed.

Either we ignore it and some notion of truth self-justifies by refusing to scrutinize itself further or we're off to the races with "What is truth?" and "What is the value of truth?". — John Doe

I am glad you didn't ignore and had that trippy first sentence roll off your tongue.
And the third horse in the race: 'What is philosophy ?' Perhaps the heart of the OP ?

Will and desire are not he same. The will is free, but desire is driven by some underlying condition — Metaphysician Undercover

It depends on what definitions are being used. There are various meanings according to context. In philosophy, there are opposing views on the concept. And free will. And so on.

When I wrote about the will, or desire, operating within us all, I was actually thinking of the verb.
To will. To want.

Where there's a will there's a way. Angela Merkel also added...' but the will should come from everybody'. The noun is about disposition. Where there is a desire...

As a verb it can express desire, choice. Or a customary habit, natural tendency.
You can call it what you will. You can think of the noun 'will' as you desire.
It might not be the right way, according to some traditionally philosophical way...but it's your way.

As a noun - a disposition to act according to principles or ends.
The act, process or experience of willing - volition. Appetite, passion. Choice, determination.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/will

So, in my example, I chose an example where there is a lowering of a desire, of will as volition.
That's all I have for now. I am using my willpower to come off the internet. Right away.

That said willpower is an ingredient to ''greater'' success because success isn't something you get right the first time. There will be many failures and you need willpower to sail you through the difficult times. — TheMadFool

I understand you better now.
'Sailing through the difficult times'. Yes. We do need some kind of a power to see us through...from intentions to acts.

That reminded me of an Italian proverb :
Tra il dire e il fare c'e di mezzo il mare.
There is a sea between saying and doing.

Also, 'between saying and doing, many a pair of shoes is worn out'. Good news for the Italian footwear industry :)

What would be the difference between "will power" and "the power of the will"? — Metaphysician Undercover

Thanks for the question. Answering it might help clarify my thoughts. So far, here's what I've got.

Willpower as a concept meaning an energetic determination, a tool to develop habits of selfcontrol.
It seems to be moralistic in nature. If one doesn't have or employ it, they are judged as being weak willed. The person and character are denigrated. However, willpower is only part of a very complex whole.

The power of the will, or desire, operates within us all. If there is a lack, then it is more likely to be addressed sympathetically. The causes perhaps being physiological - postnatal depression for example.

The difference lies in that we don't need training to be strong-willed. A child is that.
Some might wish to train that out...

Socrates called himself a physician of the soul. The first psychologist? — Fooloso4

That makes sense.
''Know Thyself'.
How else do we understand and improve ?
How else do we make life worth living but by examining our life. In all its aspects.

Socrates says the he speaks differently to different men depending on their needs. — Fooloso4

That's interesting.
I like that image.
It seems to be very like how current 'talking' therapies work.
No set answers but examining self and beliefs as in CBT ?
Cognitive stuff....

Augustine considered this problem quite extensively. How is it possible that one can know what is good, and even decide to do the good action, yet still proceed to do the contrary? I believe that this is the root of his division of the human mind into three parts, memory, intellect, and will. It is an extension of Plato's tripartite soul. With this division, the will does not necessarily follow what the intellect. Later, Aquinas discusses the relation between intellect and will. Although the will is generally seen to follow the intellect, in the absolute sense will is prior to intellect. This is how we can uphold Augustine's conception of free will. — Metaphysician Undercover

Thanks for this. I have not studied Augustine. I think dividing the human mind into parts - it always seems to be three - is quite problematic. That one follows or rules another...

Some people value intellect more than emotion or desire in behaviour, life-style or the decision-making process. And vice versa. I think it depends on the task at hand.
Some think we should do away with the concept of willpower altogether. Instead of focusing on it, we should be examining the power of will. Basically, I think we give up on projects that don't engage us.

I think will-power has to be an energy, otherwise why would we refer to it as a 'power'. I consider it as intent or the impulse to cause — BrianW

Power can be about strength, or ability, capacity to do something or act in a certain way.

I think you are right in that it requires an energetic determination.
I also think it related to motivation.
How much our various intentions are relegated according to our actual desires rather than those we or others might impose.

My point is willpower is a just a gimmick. There'a position A, where you are. Then there's position C, where you want to be. But there's this position B, which you have to cross to get to C.

If B is a pleasant place there is no need for willpower.

If B is an unpleasant place then we need willpower.

My point is all you wanted was to get to C and willpower is nothing more than an intermediary to achieve an objective. The goal-oriented nature of it diminishes its value. We have willpower only to achieve happiness or joy and that's something everyone wants. So, what's the difference between the strong-willed and weak-willed people? — TheMadFool

So you think willpower a gimmick, nothing more than an intermediary to achieve an objective.
How do you see it mediating ? As some kind of a force or emotion ?

I agree we don't need willpower when things are going well but perhaps we need it to get there in the first place. Also some might be comfortable in their unpleasant place and don't need or want willpower to go anywhere.

How does the goal oriented nature of it diminish its value ?
Not everyone wants happiness or joy. There are different, more specific goals or objectives that might require willpower. So that we can push through our own obstacles of tiredness or apathy.

Having willpower does not necessarily equate with strong-willed.
A child can be strong-willed in desire to eat a bucket of chocolate. Willpower won't stop this but being sick will.
Being strong-willed can be seen in certain world leaders. Not always a sign of strong character.

Is weakness of will is like physical weakness? Do you judge yourself for your physical limits or judge others for theirs?
There are things I am not capable of no matter how much I train and try. In addition, my willingness to train and try may not be very great to begin with. Is that a lack of willpower or simply a limit of my will? — Fooloso4

Some do see willpower as a muscle which can be trained so as to enhance self control and get things done that have to be done even though you don't want to or can't be bothered.
Apparently the first known use of the word 'willpower' was in 1859 - perhaps as a way to encourage strong character and attain success ( not sure of this but it seems aligned with Victorian moral concerns and virtue ).
This meant that people perceived as lacking in willpower e.g. the poor were judged as bad.
Even if is true that there was a lack of willlower, this is not to say that there was a lack of will or desire to improve their circumstances.

I think it human nature to judge - constant evaluation of self and others, comparisons made.
Unfortunately our perceptions and assumptions can be wrong.

it may be that the whole notion of willpower is wrong. There may only be various and sometimes competing desires. It is not weakness of will that fails to stop me from eating cake, but that at this moment the desire for cake is stronger than the desire to lose a few pounds. But this is too simplistic. The story of competing desires is not an accurate description of the complex physiological and psychological things going on within me. — Fooloso4

Yes. There is this view that the concept of willpower is not a helpful one. However, even if it were to be eliminated there is still the reality of how we manage our competing desires. It is a matter of priority.
And how motivated we are. Our decision making processes can be simple or complex. Depending.

For me to respond to that, you would first have to present a definition of spiritual depression. — Tzeentch

I need to backtrack a little. My original question was:

If you are thinking of a spiritual depression, what do you consider would be the causes and cures ? — Amity

This was prompted by your statement that:

depression is the domain of spirit — Tzeentch

I don't have a definition or understanding but I though you might have.
The question began with 'If'.
It appears that that is not what you were thinking of.

Thanks for all input. Will be taking some time out now.

Thank you,and anyone else I might have missed, for responses. I hope to reply later.
Next year perhaps :) — Amity

Of course I meant that I appreciate all responses. It's just that I haven't got round to those mentioned.
I can't keep up...