I couldn't figure out what its goal is. — Lionino

Perhaps there is no specific goal - more of an open-ended exploration of what posters take from the questions posed? It could lead nowhere or everywhere. Or tied up in side-tracks.
How would you answer the first and final questions?

What do you want and expect from philosophy? — Fooloso4

Has the philosopher outgrown the need for stories? — Fooloso4

If someone claims to know what is the Good, do you know, can you know, that she knows what is the Good?
I know that if she's a mortal, then she cannot "know" ... — 180 Proof

Who wants or needs to know The Good or The Truth? These are only concepts bounced around by crazy philosophers or doubled-down crazed religious types.

It is about being the best we can be, given current knowledge of the world, applying reason and imagination to help balance feelings and emotion. For our own sakes. No?

there is actually quite a strong relationship between traditional philosophy and modern culture. — Wayfarer

Interesting. Where do you mostly find this connection? How different would you expect them to be? Doesn't it depend on what is meant by the terms?

I haven't delved into the world of 'traditional philosophy'. Or 'modern culture' for that matter.

Given the various socio-political and economic forces that shape us, there will always be change, slow or speedy, in how we think about the world and our place in it. The relationships, strong or otherwise, between various factions can be explored for ways to improve understanding. All the better to fight?

I noticed when I studied the so-called ‘traditionalist movement’ in European philosophy, that some of it - Julius Evola being an example - was quite close to fascist in its orientation. — Wayfarer

Evola is new to me but I've just read of him here. How 'traditionalism' is used to further the populist right:
Influencing the ideas of Steve Bannon - encouraging Trump.

Evola crafted a more expressly reactionary traditionalism by introducing the gendered and racial dimensions of these oppositions. To Evola, the opposite poles of the social hierarchy were also Aryan and non-Aryan, masculine and feminine, such that an ideal society would not only be theocratic, unequal and hostile to change, but also dominated by Aryan men.

Evola regarded himself as being to the political right of fascism and Nazism, both of which he saw as merely promising starts. He thought fascism represented a step backwards, in a positive sense: a retreat from the brink of mass egalitarian society. If he could only introduce spirituality into Hitler’s and Mussolini’s militarism, perhaps the rewinding of time could be accomplished, and a golden age of theocratic virtue restored. — How a mystical doctrine is reshaping the right - New Statesmen

It seems that there is indeed a rewinding of time and progress. Or is this all of an eternal cycle and we should expect it? Is this something we can fight against...?

much can be lost by judging the past by today’s standards. — Wayfarer

Indeed. And if I hadn't moved past my initial disgruntled feelings (not standards) to discover more, then I would have missed out. It takes an open mind and a flexibility of thought...even when we seem to have found something that seems to ring true. It is disturbing when traditionalists have a strong desire to keep the status quo. That which confers exclusive riches and benefits to the detriment of others. It is too easy to change laws hard fought for and criminalise those who protest or who are made homeless.
More could be said but heading for American politics now - currently not in a good place.

What do you want and expect from philosophy? — Fooloso4

A good question. It depends, as always, on what is meant by 'philosophy'. There is something about the word itself. It attracted me, like the word 'abroad'. It felt like it could be an escape or an exploration into foreign lands. Meeting new or other ways of living and thinking in different times and places. Absorbing all the senses of what it is to be human.

Initially, it was self-learning - books being at the fore. Reflecting and then wanting more. Guidance through the labyrinth. An academic course. A disappointing realisation that talking about Concepts of Creativity and Imagination was far from being creative and imaginative. It was dry as dust. However, it did serve as a basis. And my philosophy was to explore areas and themes important to me.
How people live. How might I live to feel and act so that the benefits outweigh the costs. Don't most of us want to be in a place of wellbeing - physically, mentally, socially?

What exactly is the benefit of "trying your best" to understand what justice is?
— Count Timothy von Icarus

It may prevent you from acting unjustly or wrongly accusing others of acting unjustly. We act on our limited understanding. What alternative do we have? — Fooloso4

But do people need to know the philosophical concepts/theories of justice?
Knowledge is important; we get the facts right before we can quantify the gaps of inequality. However, we can simply look and see and feel the differences in attitude and care. The results of indifference and hostility. The restrictions of freedom or too much freedom to talk hate. To stir the anger. Can philosophy or psychology benefit humans by understanding how emotions can be manipulated? It's all in the mind?

I think tradition is important but that we are not slaves to it as long as we question its authority. Questioning its authority has become part of our tradition.
— Fooloso4

I agree, but I think it depends on what is meant by "tradition". There is the philosophical tradition, then there are the changing, mostly unexamined (until they are) socio-cultural traditions that amount to dogma. — Janus

See: https://www.wordhippo.com/what-is/another-word-for/tradition.html ?
There are different kinds of tradition or forms of philosophy, just as in poetry.
Within these we find rules and certain ways of writing (rhyme and reason) which might constrain if too tight. Don't we all need room to breathe and find our own way? To increase understanding and awareness of the beauty of both tradition and change.

Poetic tradition, as in a ghazal, changes with the modern but still its core remains. It is about adapting to what individuals want to explore. Just as in philosophy, it is about accessibility. New freedoms to share human experience.

Traditionally about love, the ghazal and the sonnet, have moved to include the realities of life.
A migrant's yearning for home and belonging.
Political reflections and real concerns about health. Cognitive decline, not just a concept.
Alzheimers:
https://www.poetryfoundation.org/poetrymagazine/poems/155783/alz-ghazal

The Academy aimed to educate individuals not only in intellectual matters but also in moral virtues, aiming to cultivate wise and virtuous leaders. The Academy functioned as a community of scholars engaged in collective study and dialogue. It was not just a place for passive learning but an active intellectual community where ideas were debated and developed. — Wayfarer

'Individuals' - what kind? I thought it exclusively for young males of high class? And, of course, any leaders would be men. Those were the times. Initially, that is one of the reasons I didn't 'take' to Plato and those that followed his tradition. Exclusive and elitist.

There is still much of that in philosophy but on TPF it is encouraging to read all kinds from all kinds.
And that includes the story-telling...

anathema to others. — Fooloso4

Just as not everyone agrees on what is the 'Greatest Music' at any given point in their lives...

What matters is being given the opportunity to listen to other perspectives, even if/when our mind rebels.
So many stories...growing in, through and from all kinds of tradition...we can't read them all, even if we wanted to. Life, love and thinking can be overwhelming.

It's good to take a break from the challenges and rest a while. To appreciate balance and a sense of peace...but aren't we all drawn back to the excitement and fun of the philosophy wars?
Dancing up and down the scales...the black and white running into each other...

Making philosophical music requires both reason and imagination. — Fooloso4

Music to my ears!
Your excellent philosophy piece shows you are on top form. If you never write anything else, you could rest easy in the knowledge that you make the best kind of music. Substantive, light, informative and questioning. Worthy of publication in any journal. Many Congratulations!

So far (9am on 9th July 2024), it has attracted worthy and valuable responses. Let's hope that continues. I read it last night and it made me so very happy. That with Labour winning the General Election, consider my spirits raised.

I've had a prolonged stated of un-wellness. A hellish viral illness.
Thankfully, I'm regaining my stamina and vitality.

I admire your whole attitude to philosophy. You exemplify what I think is good about it. I am not sure that I can write that in your thread without seeming superficial and a fan-girl. Not sure that I have the brain power to tackle or even to think clearly about your points. I'm happy to read the posts of others who have clear and constructive thoughts and ideas, like:

But this isn't all Plato is doing. The dialogues aim at different audiences. This is the message to the skeptics. He has other things to say for people who have already started down this road and are ready to hear more. Likewise he has myths like the reincarnation story with the Homeric heroes at the end of the Republic for those who have somewhat "missed the point," but might nonetheless benefit from an edifying story. — Count Timothy von Icarus

'Different audiences'
Fooloso4 has helped me grow from a point of not liking Plato to realising his great contribution; his cleverness in attracting all kinds of controversy. Participating in The Plato threads, reading and re-reading, there was always some new groove shaking and shaping. I felt the poetry and the music , even as I struggled.

This OP is so well-balanced and inspirational to new and old readers alike.

I will end this with another question: Has the philosopher outgrown the need for stories? — Fooloso4

Never! Stories arise from human interaction and the need to express experience and thoughts. Learning from and questioning the real and the imagined. Rock'n'roll :cool:

the suggestion is that if you have the truth conditions of a sentence, you have it's meaning. This is so whether the sentence is true of false. — Banno

Yes. Thank you for the clarification. I understand but have never been completely at ease with truth conditional semantics.

"Der Hahn legt ein Ei" is true if and only if the rooster laid an egg. — Banno

[Appreciate the clever and funny example, given earlier 'false friend' exchange with @javi2541997]

For me, this is circular and goes nowhere. So what? Davidson's more holistic view is an improvement.
Including context and interaction.

Davidson holds, in fact, that attitudes can be attributed, and so attitudinal content determined, only on the basis of a triangular structure that requires interaction between at least two creatures as well as interaction between each creature and a set of common objects in the world. — Donald Davidson - 4.1 - SEP

But then again. Why the need for a triangle? Can't an individual be said to have an internal meaningful conversation?

[...] I think statements of perspective, which is a lot of what we do here, are not binary true/false either. Can you actually assign T or F to every sentence, paragraph, and post here? I don't think so. Our little contributions are more or less consonant with what is discussed, fit well or poorly with the thread of discussion, and are likely true in some senses, false in others. This kind of ambiguity is typical of actual communication, rather than toy sentences such as "the sky is blue"; it is those that are the exception. — hypericin

Yes. This makes sense. Our interaction is both subjective and objective with varying degrees of expertise and quality. Attitudes, views and arguments, judged and responded to, if we want to appreciate all kinds of meaning and understanding.

And then, of course, it is not merely sentences that have meaning. — hypericin

Indeed.

@hypericin It might be helpful to visit Davidson here.
[...]
Anyway, that's an overly brief rendering of Davidsonian semantics: the meaning of a sentence is it's truth conditions. — Banno

@simplyG...if you know what needs to be so for a sentence to be true, what more do you need? What more is there to it's meaning? — Banno

This meaning is truth logical but meaning goes beyond that. False statements have meaning.

Thanks for reminding me of Davidson and a broader theory of meaning and interpretation:

In Davidson’s work the question ‘what is meaning?’ is replaced by the question ‘What would a speaker need to know to understand the utterances of another?’

The result is an account that treats the theory of meaning as necessarily part of a much broader theory of interpretation and, indeed, of a much broader approach to the mental as such.

This account is holistic inasmuch as it requires that any adequate theory must address linguistic and non-linguistic behaviour in its entirety. As we have already seen, this means that a theory of interpretation must adopt a compositional approach to the analysis of meaning; it must recognise the interconnected character of attitudes and of attitudes and behaviour; and it must also attribute attitudes and interpret behaviour in a way constrained by normative principles of rationality.

Rationality is not, however, the only principle on which Davidson’s account of radical interpretation depends. It involves, in fact, a marriage of both holistic and ‘externalist’ considerations: considerations concerning the dependence of attitudinal content on the rational connections between attitudes (‘holism’) and concerning the dependence of such content on the causal connections between attitudes and objects in the world (‘externalism’).

Indeed, this marriage is evident, as we saw earlier, in the principle of charity itself and its combination of considerations of both ‘coherence’ and ‘correspondence’. Davidson holds, in fact, that attitudes can be attributed, and so attitudinal content determined, only on the basis of a triangular structure that requires interaction between at least two creatures as well as interaction between each creature and a set of common objects in the world. — Donald Davidson - 4.1 - SEP

I beg your pardon. I feel ashamed of myself when I don't use grammar properly. — javi2541997

Por favor, no debe estar embarazada - or even embarazado?! :wink:

I am learning a lot ,thanks to this thread and interacting with you, — javi2541997

Yo también :smile:

I didn't pretend to find the 'perfect' answer — javi2541997

When you use the word 'pretend' do you mean 'attempt'?
I thought it might be a 'false friend', so checked it out:

Spanish false friends: PRETENDER

In a similar conundrum to intentar, the verb pretender often gets used by English students when they want to translate the English verb ´to pretend´. However, like intentar, the actual translation of this verb is ´to attempt´. When you want to express the verb ´to pretend´ in Spanish, the appropriate translation would be fingir — False friends - Spanish course

Knowledge of 'false friends' in any language is most important to communicate the exact meaning of a word.

The potential for embarrassing situations arises when speakers assume that they understand the meaning of a word in another language simply because it resembles a word in their native tongue. This can lead to unintentional humour, offence, or other types of misunderstandings.

Examples of False Friends in Various Languages

1. English-Spanish False Friends

– “Embarazada” in Spanish and “embarrassed” in English sound like they might be related, but they have very different meanings. While “embarrassed” refers to feeling ashamed, “embarazada” actually means “pregnant” in Spanish. This can lead to embarrassing situations if you’re trying to describe feeling ashamed and instead announce that you’re pregnant. — Beware false friends - britishey

And there are many more examples. I bet you've met a few!

I still maintain that you are more than able to respond to questions of meaning. But I'll leave it there and respect your self-assessment.
Just as I do your language ability and fascination with cultures other than your own.

Yes. Some meaning gets lost in translation. Loved that film. Haven't seen it in ages!

Thanks for the response and further questions to reflect on.
I really don't understand why you think you are not capable of responding to questions asked. Do you think there has to be a 'perfect' or 'correct' answer?

Related to the 'intermediate case' of stories, you have not only read but have written meaningful content with meaning.

During the Literature Event, we talked about haiku and other types of Japanese poetry.
They can be simple or ambiguous. An understanding at the level of immediate perception or those with a deeper meaning. All kinds have a 'meaning'.

I wonder what you think of this article about Japanese Literature, in particular, this quote:

A decade after the works of English Romantic poets such as Shelley and William Wordsworth had influenced Japanese poetry, the translations made by Ueda Bin of the French Parnassian and Symbolist poets made an even more powerful impression.

Ueda wrote, “The function of symbols is to help create in the reader an emotional state similar to that in the poet’s mind; symbols do not necessarily communicate the same conception to everyone.” This view was borrowed from the West, but it accorded perfectly with the qualities of the tanka.

Because of the ambiguities of traditional Japanese poetic expression, it was natural for a given poem to produce different effects on different readers; the important thing, as in Symbolist poetry, was to communicate the poet’s mood. If the Japanese poets of the early 1900s had been urged to avoid contamination by foreign ideas, they would have declared that this was contrary to the spirit of an enlightened age. But when informed that eminent foreign poets preferred ambiguity to clarity, the Japanese responded with double enthusiasm. — Japanese Literature - Britannica

'old meaning — javi2541997

The phrase is 'any old' - it's an idiom.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/any%20old
Hope this helps!

Trying to answer this interesting topic, but not having 'enough' background to explore its nature. I must assume that I need to read more books related to philosophy because most of the time I only read Japanese literature — javi2541997

Well, literature is arguably just as, if not more important than philosophy when it comes to 'meaning'. The combination of the two, well...that kind of narrative impresses me much.

I think you are well-placed to answer at least one of the questions in the OP:

Stories and histories have meanings, though they vary between readers. Yet, any old meaning won't do. — hypericin

This acknowledges different interpretations (even translations) of text.
But why would 'any old meaning' not do?

There are more users who would have better and more precise answers than me, because they have a background in Linguistics and Philosophy, something that I don't. — javi2541997

OK. I understand what you mean. But would that still be 'enough' for you? Or just different and leading to even more theoretical questions. As if there aren't enough theories going the rounds.
What do we learn from them all circling and competing with each other in almost a spiral of confusion?
What is the key importance - implications and benefit - to humans and their communication.
How does a mess of philosophical theories help? When there are other more practical disciplines?

I am aware that some members would disagree about the way I see and understand 'meaning', because it is something that maybe goes beyond than just boxing in categories. — javi2541997

Of course! It would be surprising and boring if there were only one main understanding of 'meaning'.
My problem, I suppose, lies in the fixation of where the discussion should be placed.
It's fine if that is where the OP's main interest lies. But I think it narrows the exploration and would not necessarily have attracted those from other perspectives. We would have lost something...

[...] boxing this OP in the 'Philosophy of Language' category is just a personal opinion, which helps me to understand it. — javi2541997

It seems that it is more than 'just a personal opinion'. You have used your knowledge about Philosophy and its Concepts logically to make 'correct' premises. Do the scare quotes around 'correct' mean they are 'provisional' assumptions? Are there only 2 views/theories of 'meaning'? Perhaps, yes, if the spotlight zooms in on:

1. Semantic and 2. Foundational - as always there are lists of competing sub-theories and views.

The term “theory of meaning” has figured, in one way or another, in a great number of philosophical disputes over the last century. Unfortunately, this term has also been used to mean a great number of different things. In this entry, the focus is on two sorts of “theory of meaning”. The first sort of theory—a semantic theory—is a theory which assigns semantic contents to expressions of a language. The second sort of theory—a foundational theory of meaning—is a theory which states the facts in virtue of which expressions have the semantic contents that they have. — Theories of Meaning - SEP

I do not pretend to say if the OP is in the right or wrong direction of debating. I don't even have enough knowledge on the matter! — javi2541997

Why would the OP be considered a right or wrong direction? What would be 'enough knowledge'?
It's an exploration.
I like the way it flows with diverse perspectives, knowledge and experience. Zooming in and out.

Perhaps, it's time to ask what prompted @hypericin to ask the questions in the OP?

Before trying to understand a concept in philosophy, I think about which category the concept should be. Using this 'logic', it helps me to make the 'correct' premises. Something like meaning and concepts can be seen in two different views: epistemology (if it is a form of knowledge) or metaphysics (if it depends on the truth/reality of our knowledge) and more precisely, I would include this exchange in a subcategory: Philosophy of Language or "metalinguistics". — javi2541997

So is the above an explanation of a Kant-Friesian approach? :

Well, it turns out that it is a matter of metaphysics, and specifically speaking, "A Kant-Friesian" approach. — javi2541997

Again, I confess to being confused.

I clicked on the link you provided and found myself lost.
I extracted a quote:

The theory of universals also gives us the theory of meaning, since meaning consists of abstract properties, so that meaning is also an artifact of the forms of necessity, both the meaning of words and the meaning of things -- of life and the world. The complete theory thus has required some distinctive elements of Kant-Friesian doctrine, including Kantian empirical realism and transcendental idealism, restated as ontological undecidability (http://www.friesian.com/undecd-1.htm), and a Friesian theory of the modes of necessity (http://www.friesian.com/system.htm). Deeper issues of meaning, both for the ultimate significance of matters of value and for religious questions, concern other aspects of Friesian metaphysics (http://www.friesian.com/metaphys.htm) and epistemology (http://www.friesian.com/epistem.htm).

The links led to both metaphysics and epistemology. A fascinating 'Deuteronomy'.
So, I'm still not clear how you arrived at your conclusion.

Your approach is to decide which category a philosophical concept should be boxed.
You seem to suggest that this discussion (see underlined) should rest in a subcategory:
Philosophy of Language.

However, this is a main category distinct from 'Metaphysics and Epistemology', according to TPF.

Either way, @hypericin placed it in 'General Discussion' for a reason, reflected in the OP.
The exploration of 'meaning' involves more than philosophical definitions. It is interdisciplinary:

...the authors arrive at a list of about 16 different definitions in use by "reputable philosophers" not counting its use in phrases like "the meaning of life", mentioned in the op, which they dismiss as meaningless. — unenlightened

I could go on about TPF Categories but this is not the time or place.

A sign of wisdom! — unenlightened

Or laziness or full to the brim.

A book defining a word uses several thousand other words, each requiring a similar book length analysis to establish the meaning of. — unenlightened

Kinda sounds about right, when it comes to philosophical definitions of concepts.

...the very foolish like me have to read the whole book, and complete idiots have to start all over again on the exact same damn word. — unenlightened

At the time, it was something you felt compelled to do. You learned something from it.
But sometimes we never learn and keep on looking for the one meaning that makes sense.
When there are multitudes...and deep down we know what it means, don't we?
Then, perhaps, we give a sigh when it all starts over...
But with a different slant, and others' views and experiences - it's interesting.

No way, I had a peek and that was enough, thank you.
Come on. Spit it out. Why did you mention this particular book? Does it hold a special meaning for you?

Read the book O ye lovers of definition, and despair. — unenlightened

Why would lovers of definition despair if they read the book?

My only contribution might be the above link, but I will be reading the replies in your thread because there are users who have more knowledge on this matter, and they would dive in (maybe). — javi2541997

I think the beauty of discussion lies not in how experts know things that others don't, rather the interaction between all lovers of meaning. What it is and how it is expressed.
Clearly, you have delved into this topic before and have come to this conclusion:

I was wondering if these questions were part of metaphysics or epistemology. Well, it turns out that it is a matter of metaphysics, and specifically speaking, "A Kant-Friesian" approach. — javi2541997

I'm confused. Perhaps you can explain what you mean?

Is there a unitary concept they share? — hypericin

we are essentially asking what sense did you make out of this artifact, behavior or phenomena, which is an open question — Tom Storm

Perhaps something like significance, resolution, comprehension, making-sense-of? "Meaning" seems to be a rather root or simple concept, not easily explicable in terms of other concepts. — Leontiskos

Yes. I think that sensemaking is key.
'Making-sense-of ' or 'sense-making' is a concept and a process. There will be disagreements as to its 'meaning' depending on context. Physical, mental or social. As in making sense of this discussion.
7 properties described in wiki: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sensemaking

Then how did we learn it? — hypericin

The How is related to the Why. Does it start with confusion? About What. We seek direction and connection.To place, people and time. Questioning self and others. Past, present and future action.

I think it is complicated — hypericin

Yes. It can be. Like any other concept to be unravelled.

Words are not chosen at random, they meet the needs of the physical and cultural environments they find themselves in — hypericin

Yes. It's about interpreting events and uncertainties, ambiguities.
It helps in making decisions; taking action. We need to look, listen and learn.
The importance lies in not being fooled by others' use of words. Like politicians and their speeches.
To call it out when someone deliberately misinterprets your words and meaning.
We need to be clear. Knowing what we mean and how best to convey it.
I like the related concepts, below:

A 2014 review of the literature on sensemaking in organizations identified a dozen different categories of sensemaking and a half-dozen sensemaking related concepts (Maitlis & Christianson, 2014).

The categories of sensemaking included: constituent-minded, cultural, ecological, environmental, future-oriented, intercultural, interpersonal, market, political, prosocial, prospective, and resourceful. The sensemaking-related concepts included: sensebreaking, sensedemanding, sense-exchanging, sensegiving, sensehiding, and sense specification. — Sensemaking - wiki

I like to see that you are still flowing around TPF - although the literary contest finished a month ago - because you often leave TPF for months.. — javi2541997

'Flowing around TPF' is at times a real joy and valuable. Other times not so much - but I wouldn't be without it - and like many others return after a break. To learn and discuss topics of interest, like this one.
I was going to write: 'Absence makes the heart grow fonder' and then wondered as to its origin.
And then, how true is it?

The exchange here is quite fascinating, ranging from poems, songs, novels, Shakespeare, letters of Benjamin Franklin, and so on...

https://english.stackexchange.com/questions/139744/who-is-the-author-of-absence-makes-the-heart-grow-fonder

Yet, I love to write. Whenever I finish a paragraph, although it can be mediocre, I feel good with myself. — javi2541997

And isn't that what it's all about - the Love.
It's actually the final word in Bradbury's chapter - 'Zen in the Art of Writing'.

The true test is in the doing. Be pragmatic, then. If you're not happy with the way your writing has gone, you might give my method a try.
If you do, I think you might easily find a new definition for Work.
And the word is LOVE.

Your mind is a good one and you share your thoughts generously. Thank you.

Iris Murdoch's differentiation of philosophical texts and literary texts, and the different implications for reading them ...
— 180 Proof
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=m47A0AmqxQE — 180 Proof

Thanks. The interview is fascinating. We can almost see or feel the thinking process.
I am not sure I agree with everything Iris says but it is an authentic attempt to answer questions.
In black and white, the world has moved on a little... here, it goes slow and careful...

[...] exploring ambiguity and for clarifying in spite of ambiguity, respectively. — 180 Proof

Yes. But first you have to be aware and notice them.
Also any assumptions and bias we carry around. Examining our selves and questioning any fixed ideas. Like whot I had!

Re: How Do You Write? (Literary and Philosophy)
The way we think - foraging and and forging connection. What is that down to?

To start with, I suspect it comes down to each writer's practiced instincts for exploring ambiguity and for clarifying in spite of ambiguity, respectively. — 180 Proof

'Practiced instincts' - I think that phrase says it all. It combines the discipline and the 'letting go' aspects.
I have rebelled against regular practice as something only 'serious' writers would do. I've always felt my writing to be spontaneous - having to be in the right frame of mind. Wrong thinking!

Having read some more on the subject, I find myself now agreeing with:

My writing process is based on perseverance. — javi2541997

Yes, I think that's vital. Sometimes it doesn't flow - or even trickle; sometimes you have to wring out every word as from a heavy wet towel. — Vera Mont

Perseverance is not about success for me. It's a life-vest: I have to get something written every day, good, bad or lackluster - and it may well end up deleted on the next good day - simply in order to keep doing it. — Vera Mont

The flow seems to come and go. But it is more likely to arise if you already have the practice and experience of regular writing. No matter whether it's perfect - it's vital. A physical and mental necessity.

I can give one tiny piece of general advice: It you want to improve your description, read Bradbury. When I was 19, my first chief tech gave me an old paperback copy of Dandelion Wine. It was a revelation worthy of a fanfare by the celestial brass. I still consider him the grand master of evocative description. — Vera Mont

Again, thanks for the recommendation. So poetic and descriptive...
Recently, I discovered his 'Zen in the Art of Writing - Essays on Creativity'.

From there, 'Becoming a Writer' - Dorothea Brande. Here in Ch 5 and 6, I am following some advice to 'harness the unconscious' and 'writing on schedule'. Fascinating. Discipline and letting go.

Beautiful. Harvest Moon. Perfect. In every way.
Dreaming and dancing in the light...still in love with you...

Freedom as a practice rather than a 'thing' or value. Is it a commodity or an accommodation?
How free are we really? When do we realise we are not free?

Priyamvada Gopal (Faculty of English) discusses freedom as a practice rather than a value to be worshipped.

Freedom. A word redolent with benevolence. We like the idea of being “free”. We are outraged at the thought of being “un-free”. It is often presented to us as a polarity: free expression, free choice and democracy, on the one hand – and repression, censorship and autocracy on the other. We are to guard the former from the latter.
[...]
“Free speech” – rather than being the nurturing and encouragement of real courage and the opening up of the imagination to new possibilities – is in danger of becoming one of the great banalities of our day, trotted out much more by the establishment for explaining its more degraded moves than a channel for producing meaningful dissent that could lead to material alternatives for the majority.

As something “thingified” – to borrow a word from Aimé Césaire’s Discourse on Colonialism – freedom isn’t seen as a practice which requires constant, vigilant exercise on all our parts. It becomes, for example, something that must be transmitted through teaching from an already free West to the un-free zones of the world. — Opinion: How free are we really? - University of Cambridge

Better late than never...

Coronation Caricatures
https://www.euronews.com/culture/2023/05/03/coronation-caricatures-has-charlie-hebdo-gone-too-far

Starting with Charlie Hebdo!
Then:

• Coronation: Putting out the Bibles - Harry and the Sacred Texts by Peter Brookes in The Times.
• Austrian caricaturist Marian Kamesky, titled ‘The King and The Queen Camilla’.
• Italian cartoonist Francesco Frank Federighi - King Charles III excitedly announcing the arrival of his imminent coronation with cymbals.
• Cuban artist Wimar Verdecia Fuentes - King Charles edging towards the crown.
• Dutch artist Tjeerd Royaards, the editorial cartoonist and cartoon editor for Cartoon Movement: Heavy lies the crown...The shadow of the late Queen Elizabeth II looms over this new era.

Another 4 before:
"FINALLY!" - Cuban artist Fabian Sotolongo - Charles waking up and celebrating, thrilled at the prospect of finally acceding to the throne. Who lies next to him in his bed...?

1. Freedom is the unknown, and the unthought. It is creativity. — unenlightened

2. When I am most free, I am least concerned about freedom and have no feeling of freedom. I make no choices at the crossroads, but dance to the rhythm of my heart. — unenlightened

3. I don't think I have defined it, except negatively. Even in mechanics this applies; the 'free' wheel is the one that is not tied by belt or gear but can move in- dependently. — unenlightened

Your thoughts remind me of the Tao Te Ching. Also, Zen.
I can't remember all the details but the freedom you describe seems similar. Would you agree?

1. Creativity. Its source and process seem to involve a letting go. An intuition or action which
arises when we don't think too hard. Or perhaps it comes after we have thought too hard. There is a tension and then a release. A freedom.

The following article notes 10 of Zen's antithetical traits which are often found in creative people.
Paradox being part of both; opposing characteristics held together in the growth of the whole.
The Zen concepts are in italics and come first. Excerpt:

1. Stillness in Movement. Highly creative people are intensely alive with an abundance of physical energy and a healthy dose of eros—and they seek stillness and quiet. They alternate enthusiasm and great concentration with periods of solitude for rest, reflection, and incubation. They are highly motivated yet need to withdraw periodically to tap their sources of insight and inspiration. They often seek the still point at the center of the wheel of action and exercise some form of contemplative practice. — Creativity and Zen - The Slender Thread

I'm not sure this is applicable to all creatives but worth considering?
The symbol of the wheel returns in 3.

2. No thoughts or feeling of freedom just relaxing or dancing in the moment. A blending and flowing.

Zen understands its freedom as expressed through an integrated mind and body. In order for this sense of freedom to be embodied, however, Zen emphasizes that a performer of any kind repeatedly undergoes mind-body training. Takuan calls this the “body’s learning,”—that is the core meaning of self-cultivation—because in the “body’s learning,” both the mind and the body are brought to action in one integrated whole. (The “body’s learning,” neurophysiologically speaking, is closely related to an activity of the cerebellum in conjunction with the hippocampus, although it is not only that.) When a skill or performing technique is learned through this method, one’s own body moves freely as it is habituated to move without waiting for a command from the mind. — Zen Freedom - SEP

I think the same kind of thing occurs in rock climbing and other sports. Being in the zone.

3. The Tao Te Ching. The negative space or 'emptiness' of the axle is necessary for a wheel to function.
Is this the same thing as a mental space without desire? The freedom of an open mind without judgement? Contemplation for wellbeing and balance.

Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu - chapter 11

Thirty spokes share the wheel's hub;
It is the center hole that makes it useful.
Shape clay into a vessel;
It is the space within that makes it useful.
Cut doors and windows for a room;
It is the holes which make it useful.
Therefore profit comes from what is there;
Usefulness from what is not there. — Tao Te Ching - Lao Tzu Ch11

Kierkegaard takes a different approach by acknowledging that a person is limited by possibilities of the world one must live in but that the personal is not reflected in it as a possibility. Freedom is the capability to do things. That requires a movement from oneself and an education through the school of possibilities. — Paine

Good to read another perspective. That freedom is a capability to do things makes sense to me.
The individual and their life move and are moved in cycles of birth, growth, loss, deterioration, death.
Life is the school whereby we become aware of possibilities and potential for growth, or otherwise.

I knew you would re-direct. So predictable, but appreciate the brevity!

Anyway, I suspect our seeming disagreement here might be mostly a matter of how we use language and what concepts/stories/metaphors we use to try to make sense of ourselves. Talking about parts of a person being master and slave is somewhat figurative. That said, I would argue that if something has parts, if it has a shape or form at all, it isn't an indivisible single or simple. You can, for the sake of convenience, draw a line around this collection of parts and treat it as one singular thing. But the fact remains that it is divisible. Even a perfect circle is divisible. A clump of clay is divisible. If something has form at all, there are internal relations. — petrichor

Very well explained. And supported by personal experience. Observation of mental states, emotions as they relate to the physical body, environment and circumstance is key to understanding issues of internal and external obstacles and freedoms...I think. Problem-solving as in pragmatics?

I appreciate your attempts to clarify your argument. Enough to say that I don't see freedom as a duty or moral freedom as a climax. The hierarchical model whereby the preceding freedoms are considered 'lower' doesn't make sense to me. Perhaps this is where a diagram might come in useful.

The perfection of moral freedom in terms of the preceding levels of freedom would be a "climax" because such a perfection would entail that society as a whole, a society full of developed, self-actualized individuals, looks at itself and says "yes, this is good, I would not have it any other way." Could such a thing ever happen!? It seems impossible, but if it was achieved, it seems worthy of the name "climax." It would be the peak you cannot move off of without descending, the summit. — Count Timothy von Icarus

This is idealistic and heavy with absolutism.
I will leave it here, having given the argument enough time and attention. Thanks.

Freedom is optimal agency (i.e. antifragility) via solidarity against structural exploitation of stakeholders (them, many) by shareholders (us, few) that is policed by modes of systemic discrimination against (divide-n-control of) non-compliant stakeholders et al. — 180 Proof

And in plain English?

You know that's largely hypocrisy. — Vera Mont

Also based on a lack of knowledge or false beliefs about female physiology, behaviour, and roles.
The particular culture and societal norms; the need of/for males to show they were not emotional.
So, males too had limited freedom. Fine to have zeal and courage, a sense of righteous indignation but the feminine side had to be squashed.

Freedom is a human capacity that exists since the species is aware of its existence.
— Moral freedom - life persona
This sentence struck me as peculiar, not only because the last bit is nonsense, but how its truth resonates in the context of life. — Vera Mont

Yes. It wasn't the reason I chose that resource. Using google is a bit of hit or a miss. It can give limited results. I tend to go for the likes of SEP. But lighter alternatives can give pause to think and question.

Does it make sense to say that: Freedom is a human capacity? Is it a tool/ability to be used? How and in what respect?

Earlier in the discussion:

↪180 Proof
The function of freedom is to free someone else.
— Toni Morrison

Freedom, here, is related to its purpose.
One purpose lies in responsibility to self and others; a kind of personal quest to improve life. — Amity

This depends on access to the best knowledge available and the capacity to take action.

Capacity: legal competency; an individual's mental or physical ability; the faculty or potential for treating, experiencing, or appreciating; the facility or power to produce, perform, or deploy.

Back to the troublesome sentence:
Does freedom (or human capability to know or free 'self' or another) exist because 'the species is aware of its existence'? Does the 'its' refer to 'freedom' or to our own existence? Both?
Awareness of ourselves and a sense of freedom. Isn't that a natural state of affairs? What we do with it - or our perception of it is what matters. It might be an illusion and we need to think or dig deeper:

We feel free because we lack the very language to articulate our unfreedom. — Slavoj Žižek

@180 Proof provided this quote but not its source.
I found it in his 'Five Jokes'. Click on the link to read the first! It helps in understanding this:

[...] We have all the freedoms one wants — the only thing missing is the “red ink”: We “feel free” because we lack the very language to articulate our unfreedom. What this lack of red ink means is that, today, all the main terms we use to designate the present conflict — “war on terror,” “democracy and freedom,” “human rights,” etc. — are false terms, mystifying our perception of the situation instead of allowing us to think it. The task today is to give the protesters red ink. — Five Jokes by Slavoj Žižek - MIT press reader

***
Finally, here's something about capability, as it relates to freedom:

The capability approach is a theoretical framework that entails two normative claims: first, the claim that the freedom to achieve well-being is of primary moral importance and, second, that well-being should be understood in terms of people’s capabilities and functionings.

Capabilities are the doings and beings that people can achieve if they so choose — their opportunity to do or be such things as being well-nourished, getting married, being educated, and travelling; functionings are capabilities that have been realized.

Whether someone can convert a set of means - resources and public goods - into a functioning (i.e., whether she has a particular capability) crucially depends on certain personal, sociopolitical, and environmental conditions, which, in the capability literature, are called ‘conversion factors.’

Capabilities have also been referred to as real or substantive freedoms as they denote the freedoms that have been cleared of any potential obstacles, in contrast to mere formal rights and freedoms. — The Capability Approach - SEP

No. My concern has more to do with the transfer of discussions to The Lounge without apparent notification or reason given at the time. Also, related to the descriptions of TPF categories and correct placements of topics. But I've said all this before.

Sorry Amity, — universeness

Why are you apologising to me?

My theory is that every thread should have a theme tune, because communication requires and assists a community to come together, and music is the food of love. — unenlightened

Yeah. Who could possibly disagree with that?!
But in practice...if everyone felt free to post any old 'freedom' song...hmmm...food fight!

Thanks to @unenlightened:

Sandy Denny was better than Joan Baez better even than Joni Mitchell at expressing the emotional intensity of a lyric. You need more...

I read her story on wiki. Such a sad and early death. Tributes include:

One of the most moving and beautiful voices this country has ever produced': Bob Stanley's short biography of an unsung hero of British folk music — Sounds of the 60s - Sandy Denny

Who Knows Where The Time Goes - Sandy Denny, composer, lyricist, singer.


Judy Collins sings and pays tribute to Sandy Denny andher late '60's classic,"Who Knows Where The Time Goes?" in a 2002 concert at the Wolftrap Farm amphitheater in Vienna, Virginia.


***
A bit less folk, a little more 'rock' with Fairport Convention:
Vocals: Sandy Denny
Background Vocalist: Richard Thompson
Guitar, Background Vocalist, Producer: Simon Nicol
Bass Guitar, Background Vocalist: Ashley Hutchings
Drums: Martin Lamble

One is enslaved by the master, but one is enslaved equally by one's fear of a beating. And if the slave is enslaved by his fear, the master is also enslaved by his desire. The master is addicted to power and luxury, and his fear is that the slaves will revolt and enslave him in turn and beat him. This is the story of unfreedom, of being a slave to desire and fear. This is the life of a well trained dog; this is not freedom for slave or for master. So it seems that no one can be free, while another is a slave - maybe one day... — unenlightened

Excellent summary and a well-chosen song.

An aside: I hadn't posted a YouTube of Joni Mitchell because I thought there was some TPF 'rule' restricting that - in a 'serious' philosophy discussion! Perhaps one or two in support of a position is fine...?