I agree but I think civil discourse is the only way to deal with issues regarding politics. — Dermot Griffin

I don't. Civil discourse has no value in and of itself. You don't "civil discourse" your way out of fascism. There is a time and place for incivility, and it should be used when necessary. There are people who deserve to be shamed, hounded, and made permanently miserable by all, as a matter of civil good.

"Polarization" is one of those nice media-friendly buzzwords that gets alot of airtime because it commits publications to nothing whatsoever, politically, while sounding vaguely diagnostic. In the generalized state of system-decay polarization is as expected as the sun is meant to be hot. It is exactly the wrong thing to be bothered with. The only thing 'radical' in such a time of decay is anyone who thinks a bit of 'gently gently' will do the trick.

One of the last good Australians left:

The Russians are coming. Russia is worse than bad. Putin is evil, “a Nazi like Hitler,” salivated the Labour MP Chris Bryant. Ukraine is about to be invaded by Russia – tonight, this week, next week. The sources include an ex CIA propagandist who now speaks for the U.S. State Department and offers no evidence of his claims about Russian actions because “it comes from the U.S. Government."

The no-evidence rule also applies in London. British Foreign Secretary Liz Truss, who spent £500,000 of public money flying to Australia in a private plane to warn the Canberra government that both Russia and China were about to pounce, offered no evidence. Antipodean heads nodded; the “narrative” is unchallenged there. One rare exception, former Prime Minister Paul Keating, called Truss’s warmongering “demented.”

Truss has blithely confused the countries of the Baltic and Black Sea. In Moscow, she told the Russian foreign minister that Britain would never accept Russian sovereignty over Rostov and Voronezh – until it was pointed out to her that these places were not part of Ukraine but in Russia. Read the Russian press about the buffoonery of this pretender to 10 Downing Street and cringe.

https://consortiumnews.com/2022/02/17/war-in-europe-the-rise-of-raw-propaganda/

Wonder who will be waiting in the wings to provide some helpful 'aid money' in return for a bit of 'structural adjustment'? — StreetlightX

Oh wow, I wrote this without looking, but of course:

The United States has offered a sovereign loan guarantee to Ukraine of up to $1 billion to support the country’s economy as the Eastern European country prepares for a possible Russian invasion any day, the Department of State announced on Monday. ... In addition, The State Department said the Export-Import Bank of the United States plans to free up $3 billion “to facilitate procurement of U.S. goods and services for projects in Ukraine.”

https://nypost.com/2022/02/14/us-offers-ukraine-1-billion-loan-to-support-economy-amid-tensions-with-russia/

These fucking warmongers are so predictable.

So it turns out American and Western hysteria about entirely made-up threats have done more damage to Ukraine than the dreamed about Russians to the tune of a double-digit billions:

Wonder who will be waiting in the wings to provide some helpful 'aid money' in return for a bit of 'structural adjustment'?

I've never quite been so terrified of a silhouette before.

Yes that must be it, very good.

Anyway, Israel should probably stop kidnapping children and beating random old men on the street to death for funsies.

Jesus, good luck.

Here I was wanting to end apartheid because it is an unmitigated evil.

But you can continue making excuses for it if you like.

I wonder if people thought so hard about Nazi feelings when they argued against throwing Jews in concentration camps. The poor, poor Nazis and their 'interests'.

Oh cool, so let's end apartheid now then. Nice to be in agreement.

"If you want to end apartheid you are a bigot"

loooooool

Lol, yeah, you speak for Jews: they necessarily need to kidnap, destroy, torture, and extra-judicially kill. Perhaps you'd like to quote the Protocols in support of Israel next. A bit of Mein Kampf after, just to round it out?

Oh what's wrong? Don't like gratuitous accusations of anti-seministm? Given that you're a supporter of Israeli apartheid who argues for it's necessity, it's a rather natural inference you think the worst of the state, essentializing Israeli-meted suffering as part of the DNA of its existence. Or maybe you'd like to make another joke about apartheid and how ending it is funny to you.

No, you're just an anti-semite who equates Israel's existence with "necessary" mass suffering. Once you break that fake link, all of what you say is trash.

Israeli apartheid must end, and all the rest is trash apologetics. I realize ending apartheid is a joke for you, but then, so are you.

Everytime this moron posts something, just remind him that he is reponding to the fact that Israel is committing crimes against humanity. That's the topic. The hasbara talking point is to change the topic. Don't let him.

So we're talking about Israeli murder. Not the Oslo accords. We're talking about Israeli land grabs, not some charter. Don't let this shithead abstract into documents. Destoryed olive groves. Kidnapped children. Torn roads.

"Israel should stop its murderous apartheid regime".

E: "You are literally advocating for the establishment of a murderuous (sic) aparthaid (sic) state".

I love it. Keep exposing yourself.

great contribution to critical thinking. — Ennui Elucidator

That's the one single good thing about apartheid. It is a moral acid which nicely exposes those who would abuse words to support mass suffering. You're the scum left over at the bottom of the petri dish.

Anyway, Israel should stop engaging in crimes against humanity. Sorry that this seems to cause you so much distress that you feel the need spew walls of text at in response.

I intend to keep distressing you.

Only one paragraph this time? I'm disappointed.

Anyway apartheid is an unmitigated evil and should be stopped immediately.

Just a single sentence. So easy.

More words to say you are an apartheid supporter. Keep going, by all means.

This is alot of words to say that you are an apartheid supporter.

It's just hilarious to me that the latest strategy in the face of unavoidable evidence that Israel is an apartheid state is to grasp the nettle and then argue for the necessity of apartheid on pain of "non-existence".

This is what happens to someone's brain on Zionism: perpetuating and accepting the most vile shit about Israel, all the better to defend Israel. To defeat anti-semitism, simply become an anti-semite I guess.

More paragraphs please.

Anyway, Israeli apartheid is an unconditional evil and should end immediately.

That's my uncontroversial statement of the day. No obfuscatory faff needed.

Lol.

End apartheid now.

Everything else - i.e. all of what you've said - is just so much apologist bullshit.

The idea that Israel's existence is premised on kidnapping children, bulldozing houses, and extra-judicial murder is more anti-semetic than anything I could even dream of coming up with. Well done though, I guess.

yet to announce a considered policy about how we can get from shitsville to something approximating a moral/desirable resolution that doesn’t involve a whole lot of dead Jews — Ennui Elucidator

Stop apartheid.

Sorry that you seem so morally unclear about this.

Or if you prefer, my critique was about whether the failure to include Israel in the discussion as an entity with interests was textbook anti-semitism because, as it happens, everyone is oppressive including the Palestinians. — Ennui Elucidator

I am happy to discuss Israeli interests. Like ethnic cleansing and settler colonialism. The only one avoiding the issue seems to be you.

Critique Palestinians all you like. In the meantime, sucks about the murdeous Israeli state.

Again, not my problem.

Even Amnesty international agrees with me. — Ennui Elucidator

This isn't the winning point you think it is.

You keep using the word, so a bit of substance would be nice. — Ennui Elucidator

There has been a very conveniently published Amnesty report on the issue. You should read it. Very vivid. Not full of obfuscatory bullshit words like 'opression' and 'interests'.

Lol, cute change of subject.

Anyway, back to Israeli apartheid.

How does Israel exist without causing the mass suffering of others? — Ennui Elucidator

Seems like a problem for Israel.

Israel shouldn’t exist. — Ennui Elucidator

So Israel can only exist on the basis of mass suffering of others?

Stop oppression = stop existing. — Ennui Elucidator

If your existence as a state is premised upon opression, then you forfeit your right to exist.

In any case, you're abstracting again. "Opression", "Interets". No, just murder, land grabbing, and wonton suffering.

Stop your santising, propagandist.

Then you have removed yourself from the conversation of what Israel should do. — Ennui Elucidator

Yeah, can't ask Israel to stop doing apartheid without 'removing myself from conversation'. Propagandist clown.

Is “stopping all oppression immediately” an ethically required choice — Ennui Elucidator

Yes. Next point.

Because if your response to "Israel is comitting crimes against humanity" is "yes but security" then nothing you say deserves to be taken seriously and you are a propagandist who deserves nothing but scorn.

Ooh no not a terrorist incident 20 years ago!! Guess Israel has to do an apartheid now.