Everything else - i.e. all of what you've said - is just so much apologist bullshit. — StreetlightX

Just say it. End Jewish apartheid now and restore Muslim apartheid. No one will hold it against you. It is abundantly clear from your position, but it would be refreshing for you to be honest.

Lol.

Lol. — StreetlightX

You laugh and the Palestinians and Israelis go on dying in an intractable situation that is exacerbated by foreign do gooders that can’t manage to place the blame for the vast majority of Palestinian suffering where it belongs - with the Muslim states who refused to permit the Palestinians entrance and safeguard in their misguided effort to weaken and de-legitimize Israel. The politics of oil have so rotted the brains of people engaged in this discourse that it is revolting.

You want the Palestinians to stop suffering? End Saudi Arabia, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt (you can throw in Iran for good measure if you like). Sure, they will still be displaced and desirous of returning to their ancestral lands, but they won’t be living in a ghetto between those that they would destroy and those that would see them suffer. The Palestinians could have been engaged in self-advocacy for 70 years from a place of relative comfort, but instead are forced to live in squaller.

But all of this is apologetics, of course. Saying that Israel is founded on unacceptable principles and that they did bad things is some defense of Israel. The Knesset is presently writing me thank you letters and the pro-Israeli lobby is buying me my next computer.

The farcical interpretation you give to what I have written is barely even worth the sarcasm I am now inclined to give it and certainly not worth the time I spent trying to get you past your sloganeering.

More paragraphs please.

Anyway, Israeli apartheid is an unconditional evil and should end immediately.

That's my uncontroversial statement of the day. No obfuscatory faff needed.

Your special pleading is tiresome ... No point in talking past each other any further. FREE PALESTINE. Shalom. :mask:

But for some reason, only one is murderous and aggressive while the other one, well, actually you don't care what happens inside it, you seem to think that it has a right to a sphere of influence and think it's just bullied/provoked by the West or something. — ssu

As I already explained sufficiently in the previous post, which you seem to not grasp : we're currently not supporting Russia. In fact, there are sanctions in place.

Where are the sanctions against Israel?

My word choice with respect to Russia merely reflects my lack of knowledge about the existence and extent of crimes. I'm familiar with his policy of removing political opponents but I'm not aware of a policy of genocide. There's a qualitative difference between the two though.

The context was clear. Who we should support. If our support is predicated upon who has the least dirty hands, why does it matter where that dirt came from if the choice is binary? Who would you rather succeed as a nation Syria or Israel? If you have to support one or another, which do you support? — Ennui Elucidator

An idiotic question. The most obvious being that Syria and Israel aren't at war so there's no need to pick sides.

But yes, in a conflict between two entities, the choice is binary and we (western countries) have and continue to support the wrong one.

Even taking your confused position that the situation is complex that choice is insane. "yeah, it's really a complicated situation and both sides do terrible things, let's support one side with billions!" so, fuck you I guess, for supporting the obvious morally wrong status quo.

It's just hilarious to me that the latest strategy in the face of unavoidable evidence that Israel is an apartheid state is to grasp the nettle and then argue for the necessity of apartheid on pain of "non-existence".

This is what happens to someone's brain on Zionism: perpetuating and accepting the most vile shit about Israel, all the better to defend Israel. To defeat anti-semitism, simply become an anti-semite I guess.

I'm familiar with his policy of removing political opponents but I'm not aware of a policy of genocide. There's a qualitative difference between the two though. — Benkei

Hmm, let's think about this.

There's about two million Chechens of whom 1,2 live in Russia (and Chechnya) and then you have 4,75 million Palestinians in what is now the Palestinian state,over a million in Israel (proper?) and in all 13 million when you count the diaspora, so there is over six times more Palestinians.

In the first Chechen war the Russian Statistical office estimates 30 000 to 40 000 Chechen civilians died while Human rights groups estimate that 80 000 civilians is closer to the truth and about 10 000 Chechen fighter died or went missing. In the Second Chechen war, that was the war Putin instigated, Chechen military and civilian losses estimates range from 50 000 to 100 000.

Add them up and you have what, perhaps from hundred thousand to two hundred thousand killed from a far more smaller population of a few million.

Now perhaps you can correct me with the statistics, but I gather that far more Chechens have been killed than Palestinians since 1948 in the wars. And there are far, far more Palestinians than Chechens. During the war of 1948 about 10 000 Palestinian civilians died. First Intifada, perhaps 2000 Palestinians were killed, in Second Intifada, a bit over 10 000, in Gaza during 2008-2009 about 6 000 killed. The numbers don't come close even to the official Russian stats from the two wars, which extremely likely don't tell the truth. And even if they would come to the same range, then you are talking of one people being 2 million and the other 13 million.

So you just HOW you consider Israel's actions to be genocidal and while Russia's actions against Chechens isn't I really don't understand.

(Of course, such accurate statistics as below aren't available from the Chechen conflict)

To defeat anti-semitism, simply become an anti-semite I guess. — StreetlightX

No. To defeat anti-semitism, recognize they structures of anti-semitism and try to dismantle them. Combine that with taking personal responsibility for when you perpetuate it and stop doing that.

The creation of a Jewish state for the Jews can only be described as a situation in which one ethnic group (or whatever group) provides themselves with advantages over other ethnic groups. The historic justification was/is the Jews were constantly persecuted and could only ensure their own survival and self determination by the creation of a state for themselves. Given that Palestine had some fair bit of cultural capital, it seemed a more obvious choice than trying to carve a new nation out of other places. The state of Israel was established primarily as a secular object of the Jewish diaspora, not a fulfillment of the ingathering of the exiles in furtherance of the messianic age. There is zero religious significance to the creation of Israel in 1948 and being anti-Zionist is something Jews are free to be.

Sorry if history and political theory intrude on your delusions of an apartheid free Middle East because the Jews have been driven out.

Evading the term "Jewish' in a discussion about Israel is akin to avoiding the mention of grain in a discussion about bread

Your special pleading is tiresome ... — 180 Proof

Because despite your general erudition, you have absolutely no answer to the question and the obviousness of the problem imposes itself on you (you know, reality). Take responsibility for your policy positions and the consequences they engender. How do you end Jewish apartheid without supporting and enabling Muslim apartheid? That isn’t special pleading. It isn’t saying treat Jews or Muslims differently. It isn’t legitimizing one form of apartheid over another. It is specifically treating them as equals and identifying the futility of “ending” apartheid to be replaced with more apartheid.

This is alot of words to say that you are an apartheid supporter.

↪Ennui Elucidator This is alot of words to say that you are an apartheid supporter.

Which is fine, but it makes you a despicable peice of shit. — StreetlightX

You are better than this. Here, let me say it again, I am an anti-Zionist. I think the existence of Israel as conceived is contrary to my notions of legitimate government and that it needs to be changed away from ethno/religious/nationalism and towards non-secular egalitarianism.

My solution to the problem of apartheid is different than yours and considers more of the features of the situation. Acknowledging that bad things will happen if your solution is imposed, which things should also be avoided, is not to support the status quo, but to say we should change it in other ways. And yes, saying “be patient” to those that suffer smacks of supporting injustice, but that is like saying that a doctor who tells a patient they must get a bit better before they can go into surgery is supportive of the malady.

There are solutions to the Israel/Palestine problem. The solution almost certainly goes through reformations of Israel and not the establishment of a Muslim state on its territory. The solution probably involves demanding various bad actors in Palestine stop acting badly and that both sides accept that neither is going away and both are entitled to kindness and governmental support. It also probably involves inflicting harm on a number on specific, guiltless individuals to make room for the social reconciliation that needs to take place.

Again, the actual people who live in Israel are human beings and generally fall within the scope of moral regarded afforded to all people. Their chosen form of government is entitled to the same regard as any other government and with that, their government is obligated to reform in ways that do not unreasonably imperil fundamental interests (such as life remaining in their homes).

The longterm success of both peoples is through mutual reconciliation and cooperation, not protracted division. The religious-zionism that has come to define Israeli national policy needs to end immediately, further displacement of established Palestinian communities needs to end immediately, and Israeli-Arabs and Palestinians alike must be given equal opportunity to organically grow the same way that Jewish Israelis are.

We could go further into particular issues and policy positions, but the fact that my solutions involve nuance does not mean I support the Israelis being assholes.

More words to say you are an apartheid supporter. Keep going, by all means.

More words to say you are an apartheid supporter. Keep going, by all means. — StreetlightX

2+2=4?

Good demonstration of advocating for a cure that is worse than the disease. Childish but for the fact that most children understand that some initially good sounding ideas are actually pretty bad.

Only one paragraph this time? I'm disappointed.

Anyway apartheid is an unmitigated evil and should be stopped immediately.

Just a single sentence. So easy.

Just a single sentence. So easy. — StreetlightX

Funny, I thought single sentences were for the ordinary language philosophers that feel the need to number them as they blather on. But sure, KISS - great contribution to critical thinking.

I look forward to more of your wisdom packaged into a single sentence. Perhaps we can change this to “Sloganeers-R-Us” or “the Aphorism Forum.” If we manage it right, maybe we can get a live feed to a fortune cookie factory that can just take random excerpts from your posts and put them in their cookies.

great contribution to critical thinking. — Ennui Elucidator

That's the one single good thing about apartheid. It is a moral acid which nicely exposes those who would abuse words to support mass suffering. You're the scum left over at the bottom of the petri dish.

Anyway, Israel should stop engaging in crimes against humanity. Sorry that this seems to cause you so much distress that you feel the need spew walls of text at in response.

I intend to keep distressing you.

Again. That's neither here nor there because we don't support Russia.

I intend to keep distressing you. — StreetlightX

You haven’t distressed me, you’ve just demonstrated what has been the case for 1,900 years. The West are anti-Semites and incapable of self-reflection on the matter because it so ingrained. You are literally advocating for the establishment of a murderuous aparthaid state that would shit all over your human rights under the guise of advocating for human rights. You can’t even see it for what it is and think anyone pointing it out is supportive of Israel doing bad things. Oppress women? Fine. Kill gays? A O.K. End freedom of speech? Good. Freedom of association? Your stamp of approval. Freedom of religion? Who doesn’t enjoy a dhimmi adding to the coffers?

I’ll do my best to change my way of thinking to prefer the caliphate over the Israelis. The contribution of the other Muslim nations in the past 200 years stand as a shining example of why their form of human rights violations are the way to go. The success of the Arab Spring at brining about structural changes and modernization towards secular liberal democracies is a sight to behold.

"Israel should stop its murderous apartheid regime".

E: "You are literally advocating for the establishment of a murderuous (sic) aparthaid (sic) state".

I love it. Keep exposing yourself.

Again. That's neither here nor there because we don't support Russia. — Benkei

I am just putting things into scale here, when you talk about genocidal behavior. I think countries and their actions ought to be judged on a similar scale.

How you deal with independence movements, secessionist movements or with ethnic tensions do matter. How many civilians are killed does matter. Even your country has "overseas countries and territories", but we don't read about political turmoil or human right violations (or at least, I haven't noticed) in Sint Maarten or Curacao. Perhaps those countries that insist they are democracies and say that they uphold international laws ought to be looked even more critically.

Now as we tend to look at Israel being a democratic state, we can raise the bar for it. I can imagine what would have happened to the Jewish people if they would have lost let's say the Six Day War and they wouldn't have the Samson Option. Yet that was even then quite hypothetical and now days no Arab country, not even them together, do really pose an existential threat to Israel. It's really no excuse what and how let's say Syria would have dealt with Jewish people. (We shouldn't forget that the neighboring countries of Israel were not fighting in 1948 for Palestine, but trying to annex as much territory of the former British Mandate)

How do you end Jewish apartheid without supporting and enabling Muslim apartheid? That isn’t special pleading. — Ennui Elucidator

No shit. That's a false dichotomy.

That's a false dichotomy. — 180 Proof

Provide your sources and evidence. It isn’t hard. Last government of Palestine that was not the colonialist scum was the ottoman caliphate. Both the PA and Hamas (the duly “elected” governments of the Palestinians) have said they want one given the chance to rule. Who among the likely Palestinian leaders is not advocating for an Islamic government/state?

:rofl:

So glad you are amused. Now evidence and sources. I’m more than happy to give it a read. I would be thrilled if there was a third choice.

"Evidence" of what? :sweat:

That the Palestinians don’t intend to create an apartheid state on whatever land they govern and/or an Islamic state.

That's your claim not mine; so, as they say, the burden's on you, Herr Goebbels.