It's wise to be a cynic toward shared beliefs rooted in impossible knowledge. — Anthony

I agree and that is why I see the opposite as evil.

I also agree that our beliefs are what we base reality on and that is why I dislike the notion of peole living in delusional states based on some preachers lies.

Regards
DL

I find my beliefs form a sort of scaffold on which to assemble my own personal mental model of the world, — Pattern-chaser

I think we all do that and that is why it is important to have ones thinking in reality instead of fiction or the supernatural. If you use junk members in your scaffold, it is not safe.

Regards
DL

but none of them was an atheist or naturalist — Matias

I disagree. In much of the time you see, to admit to atheism meant death.

The inquisitors and jihadists have been around a long time.

Regards
DL

If you assume that religious belief is the game of the stupid, you are mistaken. — Matias

I would be if I said that, I agree.

It is the supernatural aspect of belief that I find stupid.
It is all speculative nonsense as no information on the supernatural can be known or shown.

Do you disagreeing with that?

Regards
DL

But intelligence on its own does not grant immunity to it. — Theologian

I agree, given that the main reason for joining a religion is insecurity, our tribal natures and need of fellowship.

I do not mind people appeasing their natures but to lie to oneself in doing so is not intelligent or moral, in the case of our vile mainstream gods.

Regards
DL

we need a new story. One that doesn’t preserve closer-to-God hierarchy or a cosmic patriarchy. — Izat So

I agree.

They should go Gnostic and seek god their god within.

https://imgur.com/9eoBEyo

Regards
DL

No. — tim wood

^ this.

Regards
DL

Why do we behave so stupidly? — Bitter Crank

I see us as individually quite bright and as collectively quite stupid thanks to having too many leaders and not enough flexibility in thinking of the masses to see the best of those leaders.

For one, most (all?) of our leaders are liars, thieves, knaves, and scoundrels (LTK&S) and they have led the people down the primrose path of falsehood. — Bitter Crank

Not to disagree but remember that they do what their oligarch owners want them to do.

Have I showed you this.
https://www.upworthy.com/20-years-of-data-reveals-that-congress-doesnt-care-what-you-think?c=upw1&u=94acbbeb6bbd6d664157009a896e71b014efbf27

To sum it up, there are just too many LTK&S. — Bitter Crank

No argument my friend.

Regards
DL

I think trying to belittle religious types in such a manner does little to serve any decent humanitarian cause so maybe you should amend the OP? — I like sushi

I disagree and if the religious cannot take the truth, that is their problem.

If the religious were interested in humanitarian causes, they would not follow a genocidal son murdering prick of a god who they can somehow label as good, nor would they support homophobic and misogynous religions.

Regards
DL

if we assume that Dawkins was utterly correct, it means that people will act unselfishly in the extreme if they identify with others — Coben

Watch his link in the post to I like sushi and see that he is correct and that we are overdoing it.

I see a lot of couch potatoes and social media addicts out there who seem to counter this notion of 'all'. — Coben

They have given up. Nature demonstrably creates for the best possible end to all life. If you think humankind is exempt from that rule, what can I say.

an amoeba and a fox — Coben

Comparing apples and oranges is always a waste of time and meaningless. Simply stated though, if their genes have been passed to a next generation, all life is fit enough to this point in time. The race for fitness continues.

My experience with you is that you are never wrong and cannot back down and yet also are, according to yourself, enlightened. That all seems very fragile to me. — Coben

I do not see this as true as I debate hard to win, sure, but I hope to loose as that is when I really win as I learn something new.

When I win a debate, I loose the greatest pleasure I know short of sex. Learning something new.

Regards
DL

You’re talking rubbish. We’re overly optimistic, rather short-sighted and not very capable of picturing abstract probabilities - such as exponential growth and simple logical problems (for the later we are better at this if the problem is framed in an actual lived event).

I assume you’re taking the title from Dawkins book completely out of context? He has actually stated himself - explicitly - that he never meant humans are ‘selfish’. — I like sushi

If we are not led by our selfish gene, what motivates us t9o be the fittest of our species?

You want a real life example. have a look.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LIb22-5Lwg

We are so selfish in fact, as demonstrated by our altruism levels, if you understand what that link above is telling you, that scientists are having a hard time explaining it.

We are too selfish and cooperate too much, and that is why the world's morality is improving so quickly in spite of our vile homophobic and misogynous religions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

Regards
DL

I wonder if that fight isn't just another circus sideshow, — Cabbage Farmer

Of course it is all a show. It is all done for entertainment and to distract us from the reality that we will continue to be slaved to our oligarch masters until we finally take control of our various governing bodies from their control.
Only good tax laws can reverse our slave status but the oligarchs are controlling that like they control everything else.
Regards
DL

It seems reasonable to expect the trend toward multinational and global organization will continue, — Cabbage Farmer

I agree and doubt that it can be stopped even though the right wing nationalists are putting up a good fight.

Regards
DL

Man is not inherently selfish or insecure. — Tzeentch

Our main evolutionary driver is our selfish gene. If you do not agree, then tell us what you think is driving us all to try to be the fittest of our species if not that selfish desire.

Regards
DL

So once again, thank you for your enlightening me. — Arne

Always my pleasure that.
Regards
DL

People get so defensive about their polemic, everything must be true. And that is a sign of a denied insecurity. — Coben

Yes. That is why I have given reasons why we are the most insecure while all you do is deny it, while at the same time saying that other animals are more insecure.

You judged yourself and found yourself wanting.

Regards
DL

2) other animals have even more reason to be insecure and in fact this is why they are born ready to run, — Coben

Incorrect.

They can run while all we humans can do is be eaten.

That is why we are the most insecure animal on the planet and why we default to cooperation, which is the superior survival mechanism.

You are thinking ass backwards so I approve of you moving on.

Regards
DL

Thank you for enlightening me. — Arne

You are agreeing with the premise are you?

Regards
DL

And they are very cooperative, more so than us. — Coben

You have not looked.

We are so cooperative that we might go extinct because of it. Have you noted the damage to Earth because we cooperate too much to destroy it?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ADgh3yCSdM

Regards
DL

It has nothing to do with the babies feelings of security and that baby deer will be on guard from moment one. — Coben

It has everything to do with the fact you point out.
A deer can escape on it's own quite quickly, while humans cannot for the longest time and that is why we are so insecure and why we are hard wired to cooperate when possible.

Regards
DL

If you seem to missing a lot of "ifs". — Arne

That is because I am sure of my logic and reason.

Regards
DL

Great, so not an insecurity based one. — Coben

The insecurity moves us to cooperation which we see as the loving way. It is good while competition would be evil.

Regards
DL

How did you measure that one? — Coben

I just listened to experts who point out that we have to be cared for for the longest time of all animals when born by our mothers.

That helplessness causes our insecurity and dependence on the tribe. That same insecurity is what has us default to cooperation instead of competition. Cooperation is a better survival strategy than competition.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

I'm an atheist. I agree that none of the claims are true. But there's not at all a single reason or motivation for the claims being made. — Terrapin Station

I agree, but there is one major factor for the adherent, security, and one major factor for the con man/preacher. The gullible rubes cash.

Regards
DL

You can see it that way, but it's ridiculous to. It's basically positing religion as a conspiracy theory. — Terrapin Station

No. It is just showing how all that is said of supernatural invisible gods is B.S. and lies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-bEoSnNJKE

If you have gone into supernatural and dysfunctional thinking and think that a supernatural realm exists, you are a disgrace to the human race.

Regards
DL

Separation is a dreamed state by the dreamed individual. There is no separation, only what is. And there is no individual, it it illusory. What keeps what is hidden is the attempt by the so called individual to “make things better” or achieve something. Thus, the need for Gods, Gurus, and various con men. — Mtherapist67

I agree that we are all in this together, alone. We all depend on each other and our selfish gene wants to rule the world as we are all driven by evolution to be the fittest of our species.

Regards
DL

— Terrapin Station

Beliefs in things like Gods develop in a very messy, haphazard way.

I disagree as I see religions as con games and they are usually well thought out.

There's no single motivation to it.

Sure there is. The marks cash getting into the con mans pocket.

Even a particular individual will have multiple reasons for believing in something like a God.

True, but not usually the right reasons. Most are just following traditions and peer groups.

And certainly different individuals will have different reasons, different motivations.

Indeed, but mostly selfish and self-serving reasons.

Regards
DL

The best explanation is presented by Bishop Spong.

The main discourse on why we call Jesus the word of god begins at the 17 min. mark.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUmKEH9jnu8

Regards
DL

But, even in Christianity, there's a fundamental appeal towards the final word of Christ on most matters. — Wallows

??

Not the way I read scriptures and the message for salvation I see.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

As you can see, we are to ne the final arbiters and not Jesus.

Jesus came to free us from religions. Not tie us to his. All he offers us is a way to be like him.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

You give evil a role, even if you dislike the religious tone so saying that you do not is not you on your brightest day.

Regards
DL

"Man is the measure of all things." I don't have a problem with that. — Bitter Crank

We agree on some things. Nice.

Regards
DL

So, in short, I am not suggesting one cannot believe in free will. But, in order to do so, one must reject the laws of physics as currently understood. — Stephen Cook

??

Our freedom to do our will is governed and cannot surpass the laws of physics and nature, but anything within that limit shows how we do have a degree of free will.

If we did not have it, we could not give it up. We can give it up by choice.

That is the conclusion of a little test that has a poster give up his free will to reply within a simple set of limit. It demonstrates how we all can give up our free will.

Regards
DL

However I look at this, I seem to end up with the conclusion that there is no Problem of Evil. It's just a big misunderstanding (of good, God, and so on). — Pattern-chaser

There is a problem with evil, but I see Yin and Yang as compliments and not in opposition to each other.
Evil is just a small part of a greater good as it melds with it complimentary opposite.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S3LJ5HNfNEY

Regards
DL

So, the God that created the universe was not, after all, good. — Echarmion

Christians see Yahweh as good while Gnostic Christians see all gods who can cure as easily as kill, --- like Yahweh can, --- yet chooses to kill, --- as Yahweh does, --- as a genocidal son murdering prick of a god and evil as hell.

Who do you think has it right?

Regards
DL

And the answer, in the context of the comments I am posting, is that She doesn't allow it; it is necessary if good is also to exist. — Pattern-chaser

You give Satan her role, just as god did.
You cheer Satan on just as Christians do when they sing of Adam's sin being a happy fault and necessary to god's plan.

Go Satan go. Pull up your skirts and go baby. Women truly are the root of all evil, in a good kind of way.

Regards
DL

it's amazing. — Bitter Crank

I agree.

this species is not going to experience the distant music of the spheres, it's spiritual nature. — Bitter Crank

You are just not hearing well as statistics will embarrass you.

Too much of the rest of your rant is unworthy.

Humankind is the center of human existence. Being tribal, we live vicariously through the music makers and share their spirit.

Regards
DL

Depends on the perspective you use to refer to victim. We can even be victims of our own misguided endeavours. Therefore just by being a participant in sin, we are already victims. — BrianW

Indeed. That is my perspective. The correct one.

Are you not quick to forgive yourself? I am. I love myself as I love you. I can also love my god while you cannot.

IOW. I cannot victimize myself as all acts against myself are voluntary as we are all independent and free entities. You are your controller as I am mine. As you stated, it is your own misguided endeavour. Forgive yourself by recognizing that we are always doing the best we all can with what we have been given.

This universalist view is what Jesus had. You should try to adopt it.

Regards
DL

it is wrong and sinful. — BrianW

Your brush is too wide and is defective to boot.

Sin has a victim and you are ascribing the term of sin where there is no victim.

Regards
DL

You don't get what good means. — Henri

Thanks for the great description.

Dumb is as dumb writes.

Regards
DL

In some Gnostic cosmology Yaldabaoth, a lesser demiurge associated with Yahweh of the Torah and not with the highest God, is the self-deluded (in believing that he is the highest God) creator of this flawed world, with all its good and evil. — Janus

Correct.
That is when people are discussing our myths and not our beliefs, which do not include any supernatural belief. Gnostic Christians are not foolish enough to read myth literally. We leave that for fools.

I hope you can see how intelligent the ancients were as compared to the mental trash that modern preachers and theists are using with the literal reading of myths.

https://bigthink.com/videos/what-is-god-2-2

Further.
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/03132009/watch.html

Rabbi Hillel, the older contemporary of Jesus, said that when asked to sum up the whole of Jewish teaching, while he stood on one leg, said, "The Golden Rule. That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the Torah. And everything else is only commentary. Now, go and study it."

Please listen as to what is said about the literal reading of myths.

"Origen, the great second or third century Greek commentator on the Bible said that it is absolutely impossible to take these texts literally. You simply cannot do so. And he said, "God has put these sort of conundrums and paradoxes in so that we are forced to seek a deeper meaning."

Matt 7;12 So in everything, do to others what you would have them do to you, for this sums up the Law and the Prophets.

This is how early Gnostic Christians view the transition from reading myths properly to destructive literal reading and idol worship.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oR02ciandvg&feature=BFa&list=PLCBF574D

Regards
DL

makes every God's action good. — Henri

You sure like to restrict your god.

I wrote this on hell and the same logic applies here on our issue of evil.

If god did not create it, then who are you naming as his co-creator?

The bottom line on the existence of hell would be the moral implications.
God killing instead of curing is evil.
God curing instead of killing is good.
If gods do the good, then there is no hell.
Such logic trails are how god’s attributes are found in many areas of thought.

Regards
DL