what's worthy — Tomseltje

What is worthy is contemplating why a creator god would intentionally create abominations of nature.

It is demonstrable that nature inadvertently creates for the best possible end to all life.

It is demonstrable, biblically, to see that that good standard is not what the genocidal Yahweh uses.

If your god is the Yahweh/Roman Jesus combo, you can do better.

Regards
DL

TheMadFool — TheMadFool

+ 1

Regards
DL

interim — interim

I second this.

Regards
DL

the capture of Jesus — TheMadFool

Yep. It all stems from whether Jesus wanted to be captured or not, and to test the old prophesy of the messiah, he had to be turned in. Judas got the honor. This is clear by his being given the sop ahead of all the others and why thy just sat there sulking as Judas left on his mission for his best friend Jesus.

Regards
DL

We have only the rights we can defend. — interim

I agree.

Regards
DL

The better question is - were they right overall about the fall of Adam, and my answer is yes, but this is much, much more complicated topic. — interim

Get as complicated as you like. I doubt you will lose me.

If you are correct, tell us why Christians sing that Adam's sin was a happy fault and necessary to Yahweh's plan.

Why should A & E have stayed too stupid to reproduce and with their moral eyes closed?

Were they wrong in not derailing Yahweh's plan?

Would you refrain if you were Adam and screw up the plan?

Regards
DL

The Hebrew ( עֵ֕ץ הַדַּ֖עַת ט֥וֹב וָרָֽע) clearly indicates an "and" between the Hebrew words good and evil. — Hanover

I did not change it.

I did use "or" in my question but did not use or for the TOK.

I agree that there is a scale between good and evil but that does not change my question.

Was Adam wise or dumb to seek knowledge to the point of ignoring god's command to stay stupid and with his moral eyes closed?

Regards
DL

Why are you so concerned with fairy tales? — tim wood

Those fairy tales are literally believed by many and they use it to discriminate against women and gays without a just cause.

If you live by the Golden Rule, you too will be concerned for your fellow man and act to reduce the harm of homophobia and misogyny.

I have family that are women and gays and I owe it to them as well as everyone else to try to oppose those who discriminate against them without a just cause.

Regards
DL

TheMadFool — TheMadFool

We can know about the same for karma as we can for the gods.

Nothing we can confirm.

Regards
DL

the immorality of that plan. — Banno

Extremely immoral, I agree, yet that immoral plan is what Christians rely on to get into heaven thanks to their lying preachers.

Try to get Christians to talk of the morality of their religion and they always run away.

They knowingly follow immoral tenets and don't care as long as that free ride out or hell is there, even if they had to murder Jesus themselves to get it.

Regards
DL

Judas is, — TheMadFool

A fictional character who accepted the glory and task of facilitating Jesus testing the old messianic myth.

Jesus failed it and basically screwed Judas, and his belief in Jesus, over.

The sop giving is Jesus honoring Judas, even as it was making him an accomplice in his suicide.

The sop was always given to honor the recipient and seal deal.

Regards
DL

Is socialism the answer? — christian2017

We have never had a true socialist system with a flat demographic pyramid so we have nothing to compare.

We do know that all societies are hierarchal and they are showing that socialism, whatever that is, is not what they want.

You might look at the happiness stats and recognize that the Northern European democracies have blende democracy with social programs in ways that have increased the happiness factor.

Regards
DL

You insult me all the time. We both read the Bible and claim to adhere to Jesus's teachings. — christian2017

I insult you for your morals as you are following the Rome created Jesus.

I follow Jesus' more esoteric/shamanic ways.

Your way slaves you to religion while my way frees us from it.

Keep following a genocidal god if you like, but do not expect moral people to respect you for holding such a position.

Do you respect the old German S S's thinking?

You are thinking the same way if you idolize Yahweh.

Regards
DL

TheMadFool — TheMadFool

My wife and I argued karma the other day, and low and behold, I convinced her that karma is a form of victim blaming.

To even suggest to a rape victim, that she deserved what she got because of some past life action on her part, is quite cruel, and that is why I call karma victim blaming and I discard the notion of karma.

We do reap what we sow, so there is a reaction to our actions, but only in this life as we cannot show that there is any other life after death.

Further, if you think of the rapist, you would have to see him as getting his just reward for suffering his own rape in some previous life.

I think the whole karma thing is screwed up.

Regards
DL

And where does it say that? "Where" means where. — tim wood

Do I know which of the many Christian fairy tale for adults you have?

I use a Jewish one so let me know if it matches yours.

ז וַתִּפָּקַחְנָה, עֵינֵי שְׁנֵיהֶם, וַיֵּדְעוּ, כִּי עֵירֻמִּם הֵם; וַיִּתְפְּרוּ עֲלֵה תְאֵנָה, וַיַּעֲשׂוּ לָהֶם חֲגֹרֹת.

Gen 3;7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig-leaves together, and made themselves girdles.

Regards
DL

You've misconstrued my words. I don't mean that there's a being who resides in heaven called god. God, as I used it, is morality taken to perfection and being that, is the source of our moral sense and, because that's so, the source of rights. — TheMadFool

Good.

I also define the word god similarly.

I define it as the best rules and laws to live by, so I think we are on the same page.

I think that that is the message of the Moses myth as he came off the mountain with laws from god and not with a god. The Jews, like us, quickly tried to improve on those.

The big 10 are rather vile when you think of them, so they failed in giving us the best rules and laws to live by.

I had forgotten that you were more agnostic when I replied and answered as I would have to a believer.

Regards
DL

knowledge is power, power can be wielded for good and for evil. So it's neither and it's both, not necessarily one or the other. Good and evil are not determined by what we know or think we know, but instead by how we choose to act. — Tomseltje

We act on what we think we know.

I E. If we think the road is icy, be it or not, we will likely slow down.

Is that knowing, even if wrong, better than not having no knowledge to make an opinion at all?

Regards
DL

Where does it say that? — tim wood

Where Yahweh indicates that their eyes were opened after they ate from the tree of knowledge.

Regards
DL

So the real question you seem to be avoiding is: What do you consider to be the full list of prerequisites of religion? — Tomseltje

I do not avoid it. All a religion is, is a tribe or group. religio has a definition of being secular.

This link shows an atheist preacher that knows that she is running what they used to call mystery schools.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qRtJPSmI9pY

I have modernized my wording but if you do not wish to ----

Regards
DL

The notion of rights first took shape in the minds of people whose eyes were opened to the idea of morality. While it's difficult to pin down how and why of the first stirrings of ethical thinking, it's not all too difficult to see that rights are part and parcel of our sense of morality.

What is god but the ultimate perfection of our moral sense? Therefore, it's absolutely ok to assert that, since our rights are simply outgrowths of our morality and since god is the flawless form of our morality, our rights trace their origins to god, the all-benevolent creator. — TheMadFool

Look at the link in my last post.

Now try to write what you did again without choking on your own words.

How you see benevolence in a baby torturing genocidal prick is beyond me.

Do try to justify your impossible to justify thinking.

Regards
DL

So your life was not given to you by God? — Tomseltje

Do you not have a mother and a father that are human?

I do.

If you think some god gives life, then explain why he produced the poor souls you see in this link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_-nHw0_Fos&feature=player_embedded

Do you agree that only a satanic creator would create those?

Regards
DL

I turned the other cheek. — christian2017

Look up the Jewish definition and custom to know what it means.

Thanks for the insult.

Regards
DL

He says we dominated the planet due to legal fictions such as money and fictions such as human rights and religion. — christian2017

There is some truth to that, but you forget that the religious fictions that Christianity used, where backed up by inquisitionsd and murder to grow Christianity as the did not have decent moral arguments to convert with.

You forget what made Christianity the size it is. Murder and lies.

Regards
DL

Without a definition on what you mean by god, — Tomseltje

God is well defined, to the Christians who wrote the U.S. judicial documents. I will not second guess them.

All we can know is that we exist (Descartes 'cogito ergo sum'), does that mean we have the right to exist? — Tomseltje

Only if I have what it takes to defend my right to life. That or an enforcement mechanism that I can call to my rescue.

I do not see rights as being something given. They are something that we can only accept or take.

Regards
DL

thats fair. — christian2017

I always try to be.

Talk to your Christian friends and ask them to do the same for gays and women.

Regards
DL

Having apples is a prerequisite for being an apple tree, a fruit scale may have apples, but if it does that doesn't mean that thus a fruit scale is an apple tree. — Tomseltje

Think of ideology as a fruit and you are there. Push your analogy just a touch further and look at the forest of fruit trees instead of just the one fruit tree.


Regards
DL

i disagree. — christian2017

With what, goof?

Regards
DL

*sigh* You're confused and ill-informed. — tim wood

Any fool knows the N T and N T are different.

Thanks for showing where I erred in your critique.

I, of course, agree that I am all wrong, even though I do not know what you are talking about.

Thanks for the great discussion and needed instructions and corrections.

Regards
DL

morality derives from God, right? — Kenosha Kid

Don't be foolish. Genocidal gods are satanic. Not moral.

Look at secular law and see how much better it is compared to the genocidal Yahweh's.

If you want or need proofs ----

https://topdocumentaryfilms.com/theft-values/

Regards
DL

If you mean Judas was key to Jesus testing the messiahs myth, I agree.

Regards
DL

Another way to look at it is to conclude that atheists aren't godless, they merely refuse to call what they worship 'god'. — Tomseltje

Insightful.

We all hold so kind of ideal human or god in mind. We all, in that sense, have a god.

Atheists tend not to be loose enough with their definitions. I do not blame them as believers do the same thing.

I think the world is full of agnostics, and we just are too insecure to admit it if we happen to be religious.

Our tribes rule us, be they right or wrong. Polarization.

You might enjoy this presentation.

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=counterfeit+god&&view=detail&mid=2AA2BD4518A0DED948212AA2BD4518A0DED94821&&FORM=VRDGAR&ru=%2Fvideos%2Fsearch%3Fq%3Dcounterfeit%2Bgod%26FORM%3DHDRSC3

Regards
DL

at the first sign of trouble, people will behave the way they should - selfishly but I don't mean that in a bad way. — TheMadFool

Hence the law of the sea, --- that puts women and children first, --- to tell us who the male cowards are.

Do you really think most men would throw their children and women into the sea so that they could have a seat in the life boat?

Regards
DL

Letting your son be tortured for a few days when you know he's going to be okay in the end seems comparatively noble. — Kenosha Kid

Noble? Noble would have been Yahweh stepping up.

I would call the whole Jesus myth more of a joke against humans based on lies.

Regards
DL

In what sense? — tim wood

Christians, for instance, idolize a genocidal and infanticidal god that kills when he could just as easily cure.

Gnostic Christian, on the other hand, think such a vile god to be more Satan like than god like.

This link speaks to other issues.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNcRXeCzpno

When you add in the homophobia and misogyny in Christianity, you will see why it and their a hole Yahweh should be soundly rejected.

Regards
DL

he was a traitor, the bodily form of envy - and perhaps also, of greed -. — Gus Lamarch

Yes, yet Christians ignore that when Jesus was chosen to die, Yahweh would have had to insure that there was someone there to turn Jesus in.

Without Judas, there would be no sacrifice and that is why I see him as Jesus' best friend.

I see a Judas who was so distraught when Jesus failed his test of the prophesies, that he killed himself.

Evil greedy people who have accomplished their plan do not kill themselves. Only a good man would.

That or the other apostles where really dumb as they just let Judas walk out after Jesus told him to do what he had to do quickly.

Regards
DL

I do think it is interesting how they see the physical world as corrupt, full of suffering, etc. and were highly anti-procreation. — schopenhauer1

Have a look at what a modern Gnostic Christian thinks of reality.

Let me speak to the lie of Gnostic Christians hating matter.

I wrote this to refute the false notion that Gnostic Christians do not like matter and reality that the inquisitors propagated to justify their many murders of my religions originators. It shows that Christians should actually hate matter and not Gnostic Christians.

The Christian reality.
1 John 2:15Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Gen 3; 17 Thou shalt not eat of it; cursed is the ground for thy sake; in toil shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life.
-----------

The Gnostic Christian reality.
Gnostic Christian Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all.
[And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

"If those who attract you say, 'See, the Kingdom is in the sky,' then the birds of the sky will precede you.

If they say to you, 'It is under the earth,' then the fish of the sea will precede you.

Rather, the Kingdom of God is inside of you, and it is outside of you.

[Those who] become acquainted with [themselves] will find it; [and when you] become acquainted with yourselves, [you will understand that] it is you who are the sons of the living Father.

But if you will not know yourselves, you dwell in poverty and it is you who are that poverty."

As you can see from that quote, if we see God's kingdom all around us and inside of us, we cannot think that the world is anything but evolving perfection. Most just don't see it and live in poverty. Let me try to make you see the world the way I do.

Here is a mind exercise. Tell me what you see when you look around. The best that can possibly be, given our past history, or an ugly and imperfect world?

Candide.
"It is demonstrable that things cannot be otherwise than as they are; for as all things have been created for some end, they must necessarily be created for the best end.”

That means that we live in the best of all possible worlds, because it is the only possible world, given all the conditions at hand and the history that got us here. That is an irrefutable statement given entropy and the anthropic principle.

Regards
DL

So I'm trying to understand the point of these posts. Is it to show the Gnostic idea that there is a "higher god" above the God of the Bible? — schopenhauer1

No. Gnostic Christians ideas are superior to Christian ideas. Those stand on their own.

Since few are interested in religions these days, not even believers, in terms of their morality, so I prefer bashing the genocidal Yahweh.

Putting our myth against Yahweh's back when was quite useful for discussions and dialogues, but for these modern literalist times, it is not worth doing the comparisons of myths.

I think the morals of a religion are more important than the name of the god that some man created for it.

Regards
DL

Knowledge is useless unless you act on it. Also, good and evil is just one's conditioning. Something that is good is evil to another. So in a nutshell, perceptions are reality. — Ugesh

You are not talking of normal people. More like S & Ms.

Most of those will agree on what is good or evil, unless they are moral cowards who follow a genocidal god out of fear.

Stats show that better than 70% of us begin our moral thinking with the Golden Rule.

Regards
DL

Or maybe like Nietzsche knowledge is "beyond good and evil" — prothero

I do not see that as possible. Do you have an example?

Regards
DL

If you accept that humans are not "bad" but in fact "selfish", you can see that, in fact, "good" is just a reflection of someone's selfish nature. So, in conclusion, good is unnecessary, but in order to exist as an option in life, selfishness is bound to exist. — Gus Lamarch

Insightful.

God is indeed unnecessary, and is in fact a hindrance to moral thinking, as shown by the supernatural god religions adoring a genocidal satanic god.

Regards
DL