What moral framework are you employing here? — frank

All morals are subjective and I am using the system prescribed in scriptures which is basically the Golden Rule, even though that rule is a lot older than Christianity and Judaism.

Gen3;22 Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil;
1 Thessalonians 5:21 Test all things; hold fast what is good.

If you allow others to set your morality, especially Christianity with it's immoral genocidal god, then you should wonder what in hell are you doing?

Especially given their record of immoral homophobia and misogyny.

Regards
DL

As much as I agree with your assessment of this act as idolatory. Your overly generalistic view of Christianity is not very realistic — New2K2

Nice that you agree.

What have I put that is not realistic? All Christian fly the cross and there is little difference in their immoral scapegoating ideology.

Regards
DL

it doesn't mean you should separate Jesus from the Christian God or set him up as some sort of apostate or selfcontradiction — New2K2

I see more than one Jesus in scriptures, a Gnostic Christian Jesus and a Rome created one.

If you see only the Constantine/Rome created Jesus, then you are correct that he cannot be taken out of the Trinity and that makes Jesus/Yahweh a genocidal prick who kills instead of curing, while that same Jesus said he came to cure and not kill. It seem that your Jesus has a split personality.

The Gnostic Christian Jesus that I know in scriptures would be closer to an Eastern mystic Jesus and would be closer to an apostate than a Christian.

Here is how the Jesus I follow spoke and you will never see the Christian preachers quote him.

I have it in an old O.P showing why I call my god I am.

Modern Gnostic Christians name our god "I am", and yes, we do mean ourselves.

You are your controller. I am mine. You represent and present whatever mind picture you have of your God or ideal human, and so do I.

The name "I Am" you might see as meaning something like, --- I think I have grown up thanks to having forced my apotheosis through Gnosis and meditation.

In Gnostic Christianity, we follow the Christian tradition that Christians have forgotten that they are to do. That is, become brethren to Jesus.

That is why some say that the only good Christian is a Gnostic Christian.

Here is the real way to salvation that Jesus taught.

Matthew 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

John 14:23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Allan Watts explain those quotes in detail.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=alRNbesfXXw&feature=player_embedded

Regards
DL

What are these people doing taking these testimonies? — A Gnostic Agnostic

Doing what their lying preachers have done before them. I think of all those who swear to supernatural 7th hand garbage are lying. They just never admit to their hypocrisy.

spilling blood over books and idols. — A Gnostic Agnostic

Those who have used inquisitions and jihads to kill freedom of religion and thought are the ones who today cry and scream of injustice when their ideology is question or tried to be denied them. Hypocrisy at it's max in this.

and this relates to fascism and military protection of "belief"-based 'states' (ie. forcibe suppression). — A Gnostic Agnostic

Indeed. People forget how Catholicism helped Hitler, also a fascist, as his banker and helper.

Your overall view is bang on buddy.

Regards
DL

Thanks for the link. :up: — TheMadFool

My pleasure buddy.

Regards
DL

So, let's conclude that not believing it, is a prerequisite for successful sexual reproduction. — alcontali

Reproduction decision usually have more than one issue, so no, I do not agree.

Further, most theists are not really believers in their religions and are just following tradition, culture and peer pressure.

A Muslim in the M. E, will likely have more children than a U.S. Muslim.

Regards
DL

Is there a core text for this one basic (true, it would seem) Gnosticism? — Coben

The core text to a Gnostic is denoted by his label. As a Gnostic Christian, my core text is the bible. A Gnosticv Muslim's core text will be the Qur'an.

The core of Gnosticism is not tied to any particular text as one can be a Gnostic to any religion of thinking system.

Being Gnostic does have a core ideology though. It denotes a free thinkers not tied to any particular ideology.

We, like the bible states, think wisdom can only be perfected and found in many places. Gnostic would also de defined as esoteric ecumenists and in my case, naturalist.

That is what scriptures urge all people to be and do so as not to be idol worshipers of any ideology.

Regards
DL

And religious people dispute each other around the nature of God, for example. — Coben

Yes, but you do not see historians killing each other over their views the way the religious do.

It sounds like you are comparing current historians in Western countries - especially when they are not challenging things like capitalism, where the peers may be just as biased, as one example - with religious writers further back in history. — Coben

Historians tend to report what they think are facts and may speak of the conditions they see arising from political systems, but they do not usually debate the various forms.

I do not see religious bias as the same as the bias historians have. One is based on nothing whie the other is based on facts.

And further are not so important as say scripture. — Coben

Scriptures are not important at all to intelligent people who are not raised outside of a religion. They see them as myths. Some will have a worthy message and some will just be garbage.

If scriptures were important, even to the religious, the religions would not keep changing the wording of the already plagiarized or forged documentation.

And then you classify the religious writers, it seems, as intentionally justifying what they consider immoral and unethical. — Coben

Sure. They try and fail, as indicated by the shrinking numbers ot theists.

Or if you are saying they argue for their own version of ethics and you disagree with it, that's not really in the same category as what you are saying about historians. — Coben

What I disagree with is religions hiding behind a supernatural shield which kill debate and is like arguing with brain dead children.

Historians are way more honest and way less hypocritical.

Regards
DL

OK, sounds like I agree. There are so many gnosticisms, that perhaps such things do not apply to some of them, but otherwise, same page. — Coben

There is only one basic Gnostic Christianity and our friend does not have a clue as to what that looks like.

This is not surprising given the lies the inquisitors put out to justify their many murders.

We have also evolved our thinking over time, which shows the beauty of our ideology.

Regards
DL

Logically, it does not follow. — The Owl

A little wordy, but thanks for the argument.

You win this one.

Regards
DL

enqramot — enqramot

This.

Regards
DL

I mean that the mythology employed by gnostics uses logos as a key concept in a mystical sense generally denoting 'ultimate divine order' or 'absolute reason'. — fresco

As perpetual seekers, we do not recognize any ultimate divine order or absolute reason.

That would be idol worshiping and make us no better than the mainstream religion idol worshipers.

We were known as the only good Christians because we did not idol worship and always put man above god, given that all the gods are man made.

Regards
DL

'logos' being your particular idiosyncratic myth. — fresco

No wonder you try to get definitions ahead of a discussion. You misuse terms and likely think wee all do.

Regards
DL

Thanks for correcting my misunderstanding. — T Clark

More than welcomed buddy.

Regards
DL

Not necessarily true. Historians, different from archaeologists, tend to base their theories on secondary sources. Written accounts and texts. Are those facts? I think not. — Tzeentch

This is why approaching any text, we are to try to not be for or against when beginning reading.

That is also why reality, as some say, is a collective hunch.

Science, historians and others who do not idol worship, will adjust their views as new information is found. Religions ignore new findings if they go against their dogma. They easily hide behind their supernatural shield.

Regards
DL

...Islam is a "belief"-based ideology that similarly results in suffering/death due to criticisms of a male central figure. It is not different from fascist Nazism - it is the very seed of it. — A Gnostic Agnostic

This.

Though I would say faith based, but again, no argument.

Regards
DL

No, but many history book makes a genocide disappear. — Coben

True, but those writings will always be disputed by other historians.

Historians do tend to use different methods than religious people, when the texts in question are history books and scripture.

But then that makes sense, since they have quite different purposes, with some overlap. — Coben

I agree. Historians look for accuracy in their usually peer reviewed writings, while the religious just want to justify their mostly immoral thinking and unethical actions.

Regards
DL

Perhaps never tasting death means never fearing death? Perhaps reigning over all is to reign over all possible forms of suffering? — A Gnostic Agnostic

Food for thought. Thanks.

Regards
DL

Societies who in all practical terms are no longer making children are at a distinct disadvantage in spreading the very ideas that cause their problem. Why would anybody else believe a word they say? Seriously, that is what explains why they don't. There is little need for further analysis because these things are getting increasingly obvious. Just look around you, and then confirm that the mess will not be fixed any time soon, if ever. — alcontali

I do not measure the worth of an ideology on whether the speaker has children or not. Noye how prolific Muslims are yet they presently have the most immoral ideology on the planet.

If I were to give credence to your words, then all Buddhist monks should all be ignored.

Regards
DL

— TheMadFool

Please read my reply to our friend and repent for your reaction to B.S.

Regards
DL

The fact that the mythology of gnosticism also involves a male (wise) female (fallen) dichotomy albeit at the 'spiritual level' rather than a 'bodily level' implies that their claims for moral superiority are dubious. — fresco

LOL.

Again you speak out of ignorance of Gnostic Christianity.

Gnostic Christians are universalists and have tied equality to righteousness.

This following needs an update in terms but shows that equality under the law for all us is paramount.

http://gnosis.org/library/ephip.htm

Further, modern male Gnostic Christians take it further by applying the law of the sea where women and children and their needs are always put above us men, where we men think they should be.

Regards
DL

In other words, you have to solve your own problems first before trying to advise anybody else. — alcontali

Did you have something specific in mind?

I don't think I agree at all with your view as I have known doctors addicted to drugs who are quite good at helping others in ridding themselves of their addictions.

Sure, every psychologist may need their own psychologist but that does not mean that they cannot be effective psychologists.

Open your closed mind a bit and think of idiot savants.

Regards
DL

I think the root of the problem has more to do with the male psychology than God per se. — TheMadFool

A good post.

It is all psychology for sure. Not the sexual part of it. The peer pressure and desire for tribal security is. All a religion is is a tribe.

That is pure self-centered selfish behavior which profits the immoral church to grow.

Here is a quick look at our hivish tribal natures that religions have used to divide us.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T64_El2s7FU

Regards
DL

And insofar as they act on those bases, ought to be subject to corrective action, probably through criminal and civil law, as appropriate. — tim wood

I have suggested a governmental revue of the religions to decide which is more moral and to help guide the population. That would help show the garbage religions. Scientology comes to mind.

To do less, is to ignore fraud.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7y1xJAVZxXg

My taxes, --- and yours, --- keep those G D liars in business and I don't like my money being used for evil.

Regards
DL

This is very very sad particularly when you hear or read reports about gay people committing suicide. To say the very least, the right-wing Fundies should be ashamed of themselves.

The level of ignorance is baffling. When did the Bible become a 21st century medical science book... — 3017amen

Shame is what they should feel, but that would displace the contempt they prefer to feel without a just cause.

"Whoever imagines himself a favorite with God, holds other people in contempt.
Whenever a man believes that he has the exact truth from God, there is in that man no spirit of compromise.
He has not the modesty born of the imperfections of human nature; he has the arrogance of theological certainty and the tyranny born of ignorant assurance.
Believing himself to be the slave of God, he imitates his master, and of all tyrants, the worst is a slave in power."
--Robert Ingersoll

nebulous value system — Possibility

Nicely put.

Regards
DL

Get the picture? — Bitter Crank

Thanks for having more patience than I.

I just tell such to do their own research as when I supply mine, Christians especially just discard them due to the source.

They deflect by attacking the messenger and ignore the message.

Regards
DL

Another thread that has a definition problem — tim wood

In philosophical discussions, it is well known by the intelligential, that definitions happen at the end of a general discussion and not before as people will not agree on firm definitions.

If you cannot think analogically you might want to get oyt of philosophy forums.

I am not inventing new definitions and if you cannot use dictionary definitions, go argue definitions with someone else. I am here to talk issues.

Regards
DL

Many Christians have difficulty with embodiment -- including their own. Some seem to want to be above the physical, somehow being etherial disembodied beings. — Bitter Crank

They forget that the most Christian nation in the world, the U.S apparently, --- if not a U.S. joke, --- has the highest abortion rates in the world as well as the highest sexually transmitted diseases stats going.

It seems that Christian nations have a hard time walking their talk.

Regards
DL

I suggest gnostics want their cake (belief in a supremo aka 'God') — fresco

Your suggestion is foolish as we show our disrespect for supernatural stupid thinking and Christianity by insulting Yahweh, a genocidal prick, demiurge that is, whom you, like Christians, seem to think is worthy and good.

All the gods come out of human imagination and mine just happens to have morals and is supreme to me.

I hope whatever ideal example you follow, that is god to most, in laws and rules, is so as well.

Best to ask a Gnostic Christian what he believes as the inquisitors put a lot of lies out here to try to justify their many murders.

Regards
DL

That's just normal human behavior. — Bitter Crank

Informative post. Thanks.

There is no normal that says that one should discriminate without a just cause.

Normal, especially in religions, seem to change on the whim of whoever is in charge at any given point in time. Check this out.

http://christianity-revealed.com/cr/files/whensamesexmarriagewasachristianrite.html

As to your family, ask the men if they like that their church says they must marry second class citizens.

Tell the men in the churches you know, that do not put women and children above themselves, that they are inferior men.

Regards
DL

A major societal function of religion is rationalize and regulate the sexual behavior we inherit as primates. — fresco

Something worthy of an answer.

I generally agree with what you put, although you end with language I do not like. P C means many things to many people.

At one time, when we lived in city states with finite resources, the church may have had good reasons for controlling, not so much sex but reproduction.

That kept fewer babies from being sacrificed.

In modern days, religions should keep their Jesus off of our penises. They have no business in the bedrooms of the nation.

Regards
DL

Edward Feser and other Christians have published quite a bit against homosexuality. — jorndoe

Many immoral thinkers have.

Gays and women have been targets for the immoral who do not like the notion of equality for many years.

Regards
DL

I put more value in my own observations and personal experiences — Tzeentch

Ok. That would be you ignoring evil and the golden rule.

If you think you should live by the Golden Rule, change the labels in this quote to women, minorities, gays or children being brainwashed by religions and it shows what we should be thinking and doing for each other.

"First they came for the Jews, but I did nothing because I'm not a Jew. Then they came for the socialists, but I did nothing because I'm not a socialist. Then they came for the Catholics, but I did nothing because I'm not a Catholic. Finally, they came for me, but by then there was no one left to help me." – Pastor Father Niemoller (1946)”

Regards
DL

When reading a history book, aren't we believing the words of the writer? — Tzeentch

I do not think the two have equality the way you seem to wish.

No history book offers supernatural and unlikely creatures like talking serpents and donkeys.

Historians stay in the real world while the religious hide behind a supernatural shield.

A historian will argue his points with facts while the religious argue their points without facts.

Religions also praise and adore a genocidal character while historians tend to think such characters are moral monsters.

I agree with the historians and not those of such poor morals that idol worship a genocidal god.

Regards
DL

If someone has reason to "believe" in something, I'd rather them forget the "belief" part and give me their reason instead. — A Gnostic Agnostic

Yes. My definition of believe says that belief is fact based and a believer in something will be able to give you the facts that led to his belief. If he cannot then all he has is faith.

This problem becomes most obvious in religion wherein a "fact" is not actually a fact, — A Gnostic Agnostic

I agree.

In fact, we are close on this topic, save the definitions of faith and belief.

I am esoteric ecumenist enough and use analogous thinking enough follow your thinking with that one caveat in the background.

We have no real argument here so allow me to pick your brain.

You will know that Gnostic Christians hold no supernatural beliefs. I wonder if you can explain something to me that I am not sure on.

Gospel of Thomas.
1. And he said, "Whoever discovers the interpretation of these sayings will not taste death."

2. Jesus said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"

Can you explain # 1?

Can you explain this part of # 2?

"and will reign over all."

I have claim forcing my apotheosis and understand the rest.

Regards
DL

Who doesn't love homophobia and misogyny? — S

Moral people.

Regards
DL

The rise in acceptance among Christians is quite amazing, even within the last few decades. — NOS4A2

Yes. Secular law has brought Christianity to heel. Finally.

Your focus is Islam, which I agree is worse than Christianity these days, but let's not forget that the link I gave was to Uganda, a Christian nation, urged to kill gays by a U.S. Christian church..

Regards
DL

100% of the Christians I have met in my personal life. — Tzeentch

Good for you to live in a progressive area instead of a fundamental literalist area.

Anecdotal information, while interesting, has little value as compared to stats and the evils that the majority continue to do.

Regards
DL

If the response I get is silence, I’d say I’m making inroads. — Possibility

Given the number of Christians that run from me due to not being able to justify their immoral views, I would say I am a great success then.

Cowards can never be moral.

I’m not so afraid to get shit on anymore. It’s no reason to communicate hatred, anger or violence, in my book. — Possibility

Yes it is. It is in fact the loving thing to do if it corrects poor thinking.

Proverbs 3:12 For whom the Lord loveth he correcteth; even as a father the son in whom he delighteth.

You just do not like that I have to resort to tough love against the obtuse and belligerent who are selling a vile and immoral god.

For evil to grow and all that buddy.

Regards
DL