@Athena

Please consider this little ‘analogy’ that hopefully helps one to visualize a very general overview of the situation...
(Or is it a metaphor? Or a simile? :chin: )

You know how on some stereo music players (or ‘boomboxes’) there are separate settings
for bass and for treble?
So with these two knobs, you can have a variety of settings: high bass and high treble, high bass and low treble, low bass and middle treble, etc etc…

This can be compared to the workings of human civilization, in a way…

Let’s imagine a culture or civilization has two main aspects: the individual and the collective.
(Maybe the individual is like the treble, and the community is like the bass?)

Each of these aspects can be working and functioning well, or not so well.
Each of these aspects (individual person and collective community) are both intertwined,
yet one can be functional, while the other is not.
And each of these aspects are extremely important and critical for a fully functioning society.

A culture can have high-functioning ‘individuality’ with much freedom,
or it can have a low-functioning individuality with very little freedom.
Some other qualities of individuality include expression, experimentation, creativity… or a lack thereof.

A culture can have high-functioning ‘community’, with much cooperation and equality,
or can have low-functioning community, with very little cooperation and equality.
Some other qualities of community include stability, communication, tradition… or a lack thereof.

One could imagine an X-Y graph (or Cartesian plane) illustrating this.

And so, as an example…

There could in theory exist a society that had strong community, but was rather repressive when it came to individual rights (or repressive against woman or ‘minorities’).
This brings to mind Communist countries that managed to stay afloat, like China.

Or there could be a society where individual freedoms were numerous, but the social understructure was weak or fractured.
The current USA seems to roughly fall into this category.

These are very broad and general categories, but it helps me view how successful a culture can potentially be.

(TL,DR: Both! lol).

As for good online dealers to buy CBD (in USA)… I’ve had several good experiences with
wholesalecbdflower.com

Also, at the moment there’s a BF sale until Monday… 60% off.

(Not affiliated with this website… unfortunately :grin: )

I’m all for questioning ‘authority’.

“You ought to (X)!”
“You must (Y).”

Why? Hmm… :chin:

“It’s raining hard. You must wear a raincoat, my beloved child!”
But whyyyyyy? :fear:

However, adding an If clause to the sentence radically changes the energy of the statement from a command or assertion… to something more propositional, debatable, even broadly scientific.
(IE. If your want to see photosynthesis happening live, you must look into a microscope at plant cells).

So then we have: If you don’t want to get soaking wet, you ought to have some protection from the rain”.

To which the philosophical and daring child might answer:
“But what is the nature of wetness? And who (or what) is asking this question?” :nerd:

Anyone who thinks they are capable, or any parent or couple can be capable of raising a child without social support, should first demonstrate that they themselves can build a house and produce food to sustain themselves, alone, with only tools they have made themselves. Until then, it is safe to assume that it is society as a whole that is responsible for supporting parents to support children, and that their failure is our collective failure. — unenlightened

Well said! :up:

It takes a village the Internet with a good Wifi connection to raise a child.
(Streaming Netflix or Disney wouldn’t hurt either.) — African proverb

Hope you don’t mind if I updated that aphorism. :wink:

I think that a general approach to one’s life that is accepting and tolerant of human nature is a good start, at the very least.

We can never really get rid of basic aspects of our existence, like emotions and feelings, we can only repress the feelings in the effort to eliminate them.
It is a truism that repressed feelings are more harmful to one’s peace of mind (sanity) than those that are not repressed.

But of course, we don’t want to be servants to the whims of our capricious emotions.
Stoicism and Eastern systems encourage an awareness of everything, with calmness and equanimity as a goal.
It represents the golden mean of being aware of feelings, while having the ability to decide the best way to express or communicate them… or to ‘keep it to ourselves’.


I have the idea (or personal conspiracy theory lol) that most of the desires we have to change our very natures, or to ‘rise above our animal origins’ or such, have been implanted in us by cultural forces that are acting in their best interests, not ours. (If one could personify such things).

I’m imagining the scenario where a passionate couple gets ‘pulled over’ for copulating without a license.
“I told him to slow down officer”, pleads the woman.
“Officer, we promise to only do oral sex from now on! You could watch us to make sure it’s legal”, the man offers. :razz:

One advantage / loophole to the bizarre law is that homosexual couples could screw like rabbits.
(This alone would make any such laws unappetizing to the right wingers).

‘Comparitive religion’ (a tolerant and open attitude) and / or the Perennial Philosophy is not the most popular position at the moment unfortunately.

Thanks for going against the trend. :wink: :up:

Thanks. :up:

There are terrorists all around, at least potential ones, clouded with rage, pain, and confusion.
To them (or should I say ‘to us’ because almost all of us are on the edge) everything is toxic or tainted.

They and we are walking bombs, ready to detonate from the brewing chemicals inside.
A lucky few can find an alchemy to neutralize the corrosive acids before they dissolve us alive.
Our ancestors have eaten bitter grapes and our teeth are set on edge, biting anything they can.

What we seem to forget about "terrorists," is that many cases they represent the underrepresented, they are Davids fighting Goliaths. How else does one fight back against a massive host that can crush you into dust in the matter of moments should all that small resistance gather in one place? — Vaskane

If one wants to illuminate the room, light a candle.
If one wants to illuminate and warm a bitterly cold wasteland world, light your soul on fire.

(Prosaic meaning lol: self-defense is a sad fact of life, but violence is at best a temporary solution.
It is a drug with many nasty side effects, even when it is considered ‘righteous’.

What would result from many people truly knowing their own mind and power?)

Unfortunately, it is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. No… a wolf posing as a loyal guard dog.
And I imagine many investment advisors are recommending weapons manufacturers as a sure thing.
— 0 thru 9

Hey, I think you may understand what I am talking about. Can you expand on what you said? Do you know what merit hiring and advancement has to do with today's changed organization?
Right after WWII, President Eisenhower wrote a letter to Germany thanking them for their contribution to democracy. We adopted the German (Prussian) models of bureaucracy and education. That radically changed the US. My words are failing to explain the importance of this. Can you do better? Please, help if you can. — Athena

Thanks for your reply! :smile:
But sorry… I’m not much of an expert in the very important subject of world arms trading.
I started to watch a video recently, but stopped after 5 minutes because the combination of greed, heartlessness, and inevitable violence was nauseating.
Amazing how all these weapons can be used purely for the noble purpose of national and self-defense.

Thanks though for your discussion about the 1958 shift in education in the USA, which had enormous implications.

It is usually good to start simply, one could safely say.

So here’s a ‘philosophy’ set to music that’s quite simple.

Here’s one that takes it a step further, while retaining an elegant simplicity. :flower:

(Alternate version with text)

And at long last I've finally realized that it's stupid to tell stupid people that they are stupid. — 180 Proof

:rofl: Stupidity is more contagious than Covid. Better keep your distance! :yum:

It's been suggested that the games of "Men" IE religion, war, business, career etc etc, were created in order for a boy to mature into a man and fulfill a service to his society that was needed. — Vaskane

Now ‘soldiers’ can kill by launching rockets while sitting behind computers. Very brave and manly.

Maybe because of the damage to civilians and infrastructure, nations will soon fight wars in a televised battle of soldiers in an arena.
100 soldiers vs 100 of the enemy. Winner take all. Sponsored by Kill-Flex Rifles and by Pepsi.

But even so, terrorists would still do it the same way as now.

The military-industrial complex is the enemy we defended our democracy against. — Athena

Unfortunately, it is a wolf in sheep’s clothing. No… a wolf posing as a loyal guard dog.
And I imagine many investment advisors are recommending weapons manufacturers as a sure thing.

DO YOU UNDERSTAND WITHOUT YOUR POST I COULD NOT THINK OR SAY THE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS? This is democracy working. Your ability to communicate what really matters moves our thinking in a positive direction. — Athena

Thanks! :smile:

Thank you. The USA defended its democracy against a nation that was also a republic but became very authoritarian and became a mechanical society that crushed individual liberty and power as it prepared to rule the world, or at least all of Western civilization. Following the Second World War, the US adopted the bureaucratic order we stood against, and adopted the German model of education for technology for Industrial and Military purposes. As centralized government gains more and more power of authority over everything, we too are becoming a mechanical society, with businesses and institutions operating in fear of that central power.

I don't think we understand what technology has done to power and our liberty. In the past, everyone was prepared for self-government, and to be civic and Industrial leaders. That made our system of elections and representatives workable. That is no longer true. The real power of government today is policies that take care of our every need as Tocqueville warned in 1830. Policies are made by government committees and all we have to do is obey. No longer do we need to be prepared for good judgment and independent action. That is a bureaucratic technology change. We left moral training to the church in 1958. — Athena

Thanks! Well said! :100: :smile:

The mechanization of not just our world, but our minds and souls continues with acceleration.

I wrote in another thread:

One example of this is the way men are programmed to be unaware, dismissive, or repressive of their feelings.
This makes them better tools for the army, industry, or other roles that require a machine or semi-robot, until actual robots or computers can replace them.

We have to ask ourselves ‘what are the rules of identity?’
Who made and enforces them? And who benefits from this situation?
It may be impossible to determine where and when this game started since it’s been going on for millennia.
Odds are that it is not the ordinary average human, their families and communities that are priority.

One may say that machines and technology have given us so much goodness.
I’ll agree to that, but what have we given up to have so much, so quickly?
I might be the millionth person to suggest that we have made a Faustian bargain.

We are fearful of our survival so we go along with the civilization program.
We are dazzled by the shiny carrot dangling in front of us, so we run onwards.

And leaving the moral training to the Churches (as you say) brought its own problems.
Catholicism has imploded from scandal, and mainstream Protestantism arguably wants to take over the government in the USA (among other dubious qualities).

It was from ‘Positions’, where Derrida responds to interviewers’ questions, the easiest way to read him. — Joshs

Thanks very much! :up:
Oh wait… you mean that quote was already dumbed down? :sweat:

Nietzsche championed the feminine -- contrary to the popular belief that he was a Misogynist. Which I can disprove also if needed. People just don't read Nietzsche enough to understand when he differentiates between mans ideal of "women" which he merely refers to as woman, which often causes a fallacy of equivocation in the reader to think he's talking about a woman, and not mans ideal of women. There are three places where he clarifies subtly, which I can go over in more detail if you'd like. It will be a long write up. That details most of his aphorisms on Women/Woman and Woman. — Vaskane

Thanks for your in-depth reply. Much appreciated! :up:

I would take it a step further (so to speak) than Nietzsche, if I may add to his thoughts.
I’d say that men’s ideals of women are part of a cultural blueprint for identity and activity that constrains and controls men as much as it does women, though women undeniably are abused.

The clever part is convincing men that they can be ‘in charge’ and ‘manly’ by playing this crooked game.
In a crooked game, everyone loses… even the cheaters.
By following civilizational norms that ‘Man is Man, Woman is Woman, and never the twain shall meet’ each is cut off from half of their potential.

One example of this is the way men are programmed to be unaware, dismissive, or repressive of their feelings.
This makes them better tools for the army, industry, or other roles that require a machine or semi-robot, until actual robots or computers can replace them.

We have to ask ourselves ‘what are the rules of identity?’
Who made and enforces them? And who benefits from this situation?
It may be impossible to determine where and when this game started since it’s been going on for millennia.
Odds are that it is not the ordinary average human, their families and communities that are priority.

I have a problem with a previous post about education for technology. Sure we need that technology to make it possible for so many people around the world to survive, but we might even be coming to an end of what this technology can do for us. No matter what, perhaps the most important thing for us to know is how to be happy and share that happiness with others. — Athena

I think humanity as a whole has been serving the machinery of the masters of war for too long.
One day that will stop (and we won’t even need to throw out most of the machines).

And we are nearing Thanksgiving and dealing with the reality of pretty serious family problems. It is hard to know which problems are the most urgent and demanding of my attention. — Athena

Best of luck with those difficult situations! :flower:

So Derrida is saying that binary oppositions (male/female, white/black, hetero/homosexual) inevitably privilege one term over the other. Deconstruction overturns the hierarchy but doesn’t stop there. It then shows how each term of the binary depends on and overlaps with the other, so that they no longer can be said to simply oppose each other but to belong to each other. — Joshs

Ahh! I see. Excellent, thanks. :up:
By the way, where (what book) was that Derrida quote from?

Thanks for your reply. :smile:
I think I understand most of Derrida’s quote, and see a relationship to my quote.

But if you could expand on that a little (dumb it down a shade? :blush: ), it might sink into my mind even better.

Opening to Beyond Good and Evil is ... Legendary:

"Suppose truth is a woman, what then? Wouldn't we have good reason to suspect that all philosophers, insofar as they were dogmatists, had a poor understanding of women, that the dreadful seriousness and the awkward pushiness with which they so far have habitually approached truth were clumsy and inappropriate ways to win over a woman? It's clear that truth did not allow herself to be won over. And every form of dogmatism nowadays is standing there dismayed and disheartened - if it's still standing at all! — Vaskane

Thanks for your post. :up:

Regarding our possible cultural underestimation of the dark quiet feminine Yin, I’d say this quote describes our love of (addiction to?) certainty and fact.
Fact as something solid and almost immutable.
Assemble a group of related ‘facts’ and you have truth! (A least a truth.)

Even on a purely physical level, seeking absolute truth can go astray as shown by the mysterious Quantum theory.
With regards to a moving target like the human mind and culture, the results can range from deceptive to disastrous.

But… perhaps if one has a very practical attitude toward beliefs and other assemblages of ‘facts’ (do they work? do they help?) and has a non-attachment to them, then there are less potential problems.
At least, it seems so to me.

‘Dogma’ wasn’t always the criticism is is now; Nietzsche the iconoclast helped his readers see the pitfalls of unexamined belief, whether religious, philosophical, or otherwise.
Although my impression of Nietzsche is that he sometimes fell under the sway of the ‘overly Yang’, with his Will To Power, for example.
But please correct me if that’s an incomplete or incorrect view of his influential work. :smile:

Dang, that is rough! Good luck with that difficult situation.
At least the stigma around it has lessened, since it’s so widespread, though that may be little comfort.
You’ve probably heard of putting Diatomaceous Earth under the bed to dissolve their shell.
Otherwise, I don’t have much experience with it.
Though lately I feel that CBD hemp oil cures practically everything, it might soothe the bites?

The moon is flat. It spins around like a giant coin in the sky.
That why it sometimes appears smaller.
Astronauts didn’t report this flatness, thus it was all a fake! :sparkle: :lol: :monkey:

Interesting! Apollonian and Dionysian are a classic pair.

Towards which one would you say that our culture is leaning towards or imbalanced toward?
I’d have to ponder it more, but I’d say that up until the mid 1960s our culture was overly Apollonian.

Then after a culture clash, the Dionysian was co-opted, and its archetypal power subverted to serve the status quo-money machine.

Ok thanks, that helps me understand. :up:

Yin and Yang could probably be called a metaphysical concept, one that originated in Asia of course.
I’d call it more of a continuum, because each Yin and Yang contain the seed of the other within it.
Perhaps the West in general better understands binary logic of yes/no and good/evil.

Even the beloved Star Wars and its ‘balance of the Force’ is not accurate regarding the ‘dark side’ lol.
It’s just a movie series, but it kind of perpetuates the misunderstanding, I think.
Yin is definitely not ‘evil’ or power-hungry as shown there.

I guess this is on the level of mass psychology, or the underlying philosophy of a civilization.
Perhaps this involves the psychology of propaganda in a way because it seems like it would take a great intentional effort to convince everyone that they should act, identify, and think in a rather narrow and particular way.

Or so I tend to think in my cynical moments, but I may be imagining things.

Hmm… I think I know what you are saying. But if you can expand on that a little, then I can be sure. Thanks for your reply! :smile:

Why are we told and taught and trained to hate the Yin?

Taught to hate the Yin within by repression and judgment.
To hate the Yin around us by seeing it as lesser, while exploiting it.

For a common example, a young boy who is light-skinned (white) is told (implicitly, perhaps explicitly… dominator culture is hypocritical and likes to disguise its toxic nature) to hate the ‘lesser’ female, and to avoid being anything similar to that.
To be a ‘girl, fag, sissy, wimp’ (or other terrible slurs) is considered the lowest level, even possibly evil or to be possessed.

We are even taught to hate childhood, in a way. Because being a baby is being immature and stupid.
We are taught to hate ‘minorities’ because they are supposedly (at least partially) ‘primitive and animal’.

Hate is fear, and fear is judging all in order to put oneself on the elite pinnacle of humanity.
But this judgment is against parts of ourselves, no matter who we are, and this causes self-hatred.

Trying to be strong can be good, but labeling half of creation as lesser or evil cannot help but lead to suffering and tragedy.
In our ‘badass culture’, we try to become a monster, in order to avoid being a victim.

Nevertheless, humans don’t have an animal brain gift-wrapped in cognition, as any expert in brain evolution knows.

“Mapping emotion onto just the middle part of the brain, and reason and logic onto the cortex, is just plain silly,” says neuroscientist Barbara L. Fin­lay, editor of the journal Behavior and Brain Sciences. “All brain divisions are
present in all vertebrates.” So how do brains evolve? They reorganize as they expand, like companies do, to keep themselves efficient and nimble.
( Lisa Barrett, How Emotions are Made) — Joshs

:100: :clap: Thanks for posting this. Quite an important point and distinction, with many ramifications/consequences.

Thank you :cry: I cry because I have such a different understanding of democracy and it seems futile to convey my different way of thinking about it. Can we begin with Socrates and his concern that if we are not mature and self-aware and focused on morality things will not go well? Democracy is rule by reason and if we are not prepared for that, we can not manifest that. — Athena

Thank you as well! :sparkle:
I cry as well because everyone seems desperately unhappy, stressed, and pressured.
Lucky are those who have some temporary peace and sanity. (I say temporary because ‘the shit can hit the fan’ at any moment).
Not just adults… even little children.

So if we are starting life under a constant thunderous barrage, education and wisdom have trouble even being heard, let alone being followed.

Yes, well said. :up:

To put it somewhat humorously: “Breaking news, this just in… it seems that there are different religions than Christianity… even in the USA. And shockingly there is new evidence that some forms of Christianity actually ARE NOT fundamentalist, outdated, intolerant and determined to make their beliefs into law for everyone! News at eleven o’clock.” :razz:
(Could be an interesting and fruitful thread though).

(Cynical answer, as if the Devil’s dictionary were updated).

Successful state: one which has made the proper deals with the right corporations and currency market manipulators.

Failed state: one that hasn’t.

To which end, hereunder a recent lecture by Swami Sarvapriyananda, who is the current director of the Vedanta Society, mentioned in the OP. I find him a very charming lecturer, and he seems knowledgeable of philosophy both Eastern and Western (notice he quotes David Hume in the first couple of minutes of this lecture.) — Wayfarer

Thanks for sharing that. :smile:
I’m still absorbing the first 20 minutes… don’t want to go too fast and get mental indigestion. :yum:

:grin: :up:

The void, afaic, is best filled with a connection to the earth - nature and life - to supply the spiritual component, the awe and reverence. — Vera Mont

Lay down all thoughts
Surrender to the void
It is shining, It is shining… :victory: :nerd: :sparkle:

That's all going in the right direction. Unfortunately, there are still far too many of us for everyone to benefit, although that situation could be remedied in a relatively short time, with the will to do so.
Some initiatives are well under way — Vera Mont

Yes, good examples thanks! :smile:

I think our instincts and knowledge to survive and even thrive remain, waiting for the opportunity.

We are using these instincts now of course, but the Machine aims to turn us into cogs and grist for its mills, so we are inhibited and controlled.

If people felt they were truly able to work for themselves, their families and communities, the world would bloom into life and color like a desert after a rain storm. :flower:

I agree, it is how people feel about their lives and how much they can bear of a situation which perhaps all, including those who do not tend to reflect on much, feel to be well out of kilter, not to mention outrageous and unjust, that may bring about a radical shift, when and if things get bad enough. — Janus

:up: Yes.

And though I was referring to spiritual growth that occurs when circumstances are difficult (like a tree’s roots going deeper in a drought), some people unfortunately get locked in attack/survival mode.
It’s a slow panic where stocking up on weapons seems like a good idea at the time.

I get the feeling that advising them to open their heart chakra to release the blockage of energy at lower levels might be ignored.
Maybe gently humming the song ‘Turn on Your Heart Light’ by Neil Diamond lol?

The Golden Age was first; when Man, yet new,
No rule but uncorrupted Reason knew:
And, with a native bent, did good pursue.
Unforc'd by punishment, un-aw'd by fear.
His words were simple, and his soul sincere;
Needless was written law, where none opprest:
The law of Man was written in his breast.
— Ovid

And it's been downhill ever since. Thusly, our inheritance tells us to avoid hubris and the pretence of very stable genius. Do not pass Go, do not call Ghostbusters. Just grit your teeth and dig your heels in. — unenlightened

:smile: :up: Thanks for sharing that!

You don't need the populace to be a "permanent existent entity" you just need everyone, or at least enough people who get the picture, but yes, I don't believe it will happen; the point was just that without the possibility of globally coordinated action then it doesn't look too hopeful. The elites will screw the populace, and the politicians will let them do it.

Without the populace itself, at least some number of people which would constitute a kind of critical mass, refusing to be screwed then it will remain all smoke and mirrors, and we will continue to be screwed, until civilization itself is screwed. — Janus

:up: :100:
When looking at the world situation with an eye toward the future, it is natural to measure things, temperatures, markets, etc.
Harder to measure is the inner experience of being a human right now.

What alchemy is going on in the hearts and minds of a humanity pushed to extremes?
What hopes are sprouting despite the dark clouds and sulphuric air?
Why does love and acceptance seem even scarcer than money and gold?

Maybe a new way of thinking about a different way of living is slowly being born.
One naturally imagines signs of spring during a harsh winter blizzard.

Thanks for your reply! :up:

It is unfortunately an old question… how could a religion centered on ‘love’ become the very opposite.
Add in a lust for worldly power and possessions, in a vain attempt to fill an emptiness felt inside us.

But the emptiness is not a bad thing (as Buddhism embraces it), quantum emptiness is the foundation.
The void is like a road, a pathway for energy, love, awareness, light to flow.
Trying to cram material things to fill the void might be the biggest mistake humans make, the primal miscalculation that gives birth to countless problems.

It is probably no surprise that the radical teachings of Jesus got twisted to suit the Roman Empire.
Soon it was little more than “we have the one true God on our side so watch out!”
The Yin half of reality got discarded for being too soft, and not ambitious enough.
Maybe a monotheistic belief system oversimplifies that which is beyond human understanding and control.

And now thousands of years later, even good-hearted people who want to believe in something inspiring are trying to make sense of all the religious hypocrisy that covers all like a river of toxic waste.

It’s no wonder that many consider any religious or spiritual expression to be folly, madness, archaic.
I now think that position is too extreme and polemic, but I’ve wondered the same thing.

Thanks very much! :pray: :smile:

I wonder what would happen if either democracy or Christianity were ever actually and truly manifested?

Democracy’s brand name is wearing thin.

I can at least dimly imagine a possible Christianity that is not power-mad and judgmental and very Old Testament driven, with a tendency towards random Bible verse dogma and hypocrisy.