Do intelligent women ever? find average to a little bit slow men attractive? — TiredThinker

Of course that happens. But attraction depends on more than an assessment of intelligence. The force that through the green fuse drives the flower has something to do with it. "Finding attractive" may not be simple but maintaining a long-lasting relationship is much more complicated. Brains or not, a similar approach to money management helps a lot. Success at sex matters. Economic security helps. Et cetera.

I haven't read much Dostoevsky (shame shame shame). Say more about his feed-back loop observations, would you.

2/6/21 - 9:04 p.m.

I had got into a negative state of mind prior to my experience of getting knocked down by the bicycle. Strangely, I had been in a most atrocious mood on the day when I got knocked down by a car. — Jack Cummins

Over the years I have had a series of running and biking accidents (starting in 1983). These resulted in broken bones, painful muscle injuries, and wrecked bikes. One of these crashes could easily have been fatal. The common theme in all of these accidents was being in a distracted foul mood--so foul that I was not thinking straight or even paying attention. These were clearly my fault.

I didn't find a solution, apart from not riding for maybe... 15 years. (I don't drive.) I'm in a much better state of mind now. I wish I knew what cured me so I could put in a bottle, but whatever it was is a mystery.

Around 4 years ago I got a new bike and have been happily riding again to do errands and just for fun. I don't get lost in angry ruminating while riding any more, and I pay attention.

2/6/21 - 9:00 p.m.

I do think that what we experienced in life affects the whole way we think and form our ideas. — Jack Cummins

Absolutely. The pragmatist philosopher, William James, thought there was a connection between behavior and emotion. He posited that fear could be amplified by danger-avoiding behavior. Are we running because we are afraid or are we afraid because we are running? (He wasn't claiming that going out for a run won't make someone fearful--not in itself, anyway.) Some very fearful people reinforce their fears by behaving in excessively cautious ways. The cautious behavior validates their fears.

"voluntary laughing" or "joyful dancing" can improve mood. Breathing deeply helps bring about relaxation.

Experience shapes cognition, too. Shopping in a supermarket (without getting hit by a bicycle when departing) presumably has a subtle, at least slight effect on our thinking, positive or negative. Driving on a crowded highway would too. Work tasks (a huge variety), household tasks, recreational tasks -- all sorts of things are likely to affect our thinking. Performing a difficult task successfully is likely to strengthen our sense of confidence; exercising executive agency is likely to strengthen our sense of personal 'efficacy', the belief that we can actually accomplish goals. (The reverse would be true too.).

Glad you are OK; better that way.

feel like some kind of vagrant — Jack Cummins

I get it. There are so many public areas that are devoid of life under the various Covid-19 cautions.

I had quite a bad yesterday and even got knocked down by a bicycle on the road. — Jack Cummins

Oh no! Were you walking or were you on a bike yourself? Did you get hurt--scraped up, lacerated...? Getting run over by a bicycle is not as bad (and probably not as final) as getting run over by a bus, but I dread it myself.

It just feels like we have to find meanings and not give up. I had also been reading the thread on reasons for living and that seems to be about finding solid, logical reasons for carrying on life. — Jack Cummins

We are certainly advised to find meaning (or make it up). Whenever I try to do this, I end up with results that I do not find personally compelling. Life pushes us forward and we go on OR it doesn't, and we are not here anymore. Life's insistent perpetuation seems to work across the spectrum of all species.

Life is its best reason for carrying on. Reasons for living that we devise are after-the-fact. If they help, good. If not, OK. Life keeps pushing on. If life depended on good reasons, we would not be here.

Life--whether it intended to do so or not--gave us an active inquiring intelligence. We WILL look for meaning. And we will find it or we will make it up. We want meaning, and we also want to be happy -- whatever 'happy' means. (I have even fewer clues about how to be happy than how to find the meaning of life.) Do stuff that makes you happy. Maybe that will help you find meaning. Even if it doesn't, it's better to be happy than be miserable.

local time: 1:41 p.m. February. 6, 2021

So that leads me to wonder whether life can be viewed as an experiment. — Jack Cummins

Who is the subject of the the experiment; who is the experimenter? You? Us? God? Benevolent (or not) overlords?

God made the World in six days flat
On the seventh he said, I'll rest
So he let the thing into orbit swing
To give it a dry run test
A billion years went by
Then he took a look at the whirling blob
His spirits fell as he shrugged
Oh well, it was only a six-day job. Rhymes for the Irreverent-Chad Mitchell

My opinion: Life is not an experiment. It is a largely unscripted experience of very mixed quality.

It was queried whether we were being indoctrinated. I believe that we were adopting feminist ideas because we were all critical of sexism. — Jack Cummins

Were you against sexism because you had first hand experience as the victims of sexism, or were you indoctrinated by others who were, or thought they were, first (or second) hand victims of sexism? I'm not suggesting that you (plural) should be sexist; it's just fairly likely that the men in the group were probably not first hand victims of sexism so needed a push in that direction.

Consciousness of exploitation (class, race, sex, orientation, etc.) is usually acquired from first hand experiences, and/or it is acquired through teaching, discussion, reading -- indoctrination. My consciousness as a proud gay man (back in the halcyon days of gay liberation) was greatly aided by indoctrination. My consciousness as an exploited worker (mostly during the presidency of Ronald Reagan and George Bush I) was acquired largely through indoctrination.

For me, it's less a question of whether one is indoctrinated, and more a question of WHO is doing the indoctrination, and toward WHAT end. IMHO, there is way too little working class indoctrination to balance out ruling class indoctrination.

One particular one is how some radical lesbians have been fairly hostile to transgender people. — Jack Cummins

I generally stay clear of radical lesbians. My experience with them hasn't been very positive.

Lesbians in general tend to have more complex sexual histories than exclusively gay men. I don't know exactly why that is, but it is probably related to the available roles that women have had open to them, and the way women in general socialize (which is different than the way men in general socialize).

Some radical lesbians and some heterosexual women both have been very hostile toward transsexuals. I have my doubts about trans-genderism in general, and the deeper one gets into politico-sexual theory (radical and not) the murkier it can become. Like... mud?

There used to be a Friday night coffee house for lesbians in Minneapolis (held in a church basement). the radical lesbians in the group disapproved of lesbian mothers bringing their very young male children into the space. Women-only -- period. No XY chromosomes allowed.

So, there are many possible issues and debates, and they are all relevant when thinking about the whole nature of prejudice. — Jack Cummins

Indeed.

Here's a quote I like by a lesbian writer:

There's nothing better for a city than a dense population of angry homosexuals.

Lots of people here born in warm, snug, semi-posh academical families with ”progressive” values, seemingly. — Ansiktsburk

Warm, snug, semi-posh, academic progressives--hmmmm. Yes, please. Unfortunately I missed the boat on that one.

But then you add the word "seemingly".

True enough, progressives (whether they are warm, dry, and academic or not) are not perfection personified. Neither is any other group on the continuum between troglodyte and enlightened.

So what?

" I'm not a racist, but..." — Kenosha Kid

"I'm not a murderer, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure." (attributed to Mark Twain)

I think that the idea of 'cleansing' of prejudice is a bit problematic as a metaphor. It reminds me too much of the whole racist of the idea of ethnic cleansing. It also conjures up images of antibacterial gel and disinfectant, as if being applied to our thoughts and feelings. — Jack Cummins

It's not problematic a bit. Your memory associated the word "cleansing" with "ethnic" and we are off to the [horse] races. I used the word "fumigating"; when I typed the word, I remembered that Zyklon B was used to fumigate insects and rats from food storage areas. It was invented by Fritz Haber (1868 - 1934). It was also used to fumigate Jews in the gas chambers. Oh, oh -- Fritz Haber must be a very bad man. Well, no--he also discovered how to make nitrogen fertilizer from air (Haber-Bosch process -- Nobel prize, 1918). It is said that 2 out 5 people on earth owe their existence to Haber -- because his discovery enables the world to greatly increase food production. Are you going to avoid Bayer aspirin? Bayer was part of I.G. Farben--the manufacturer of Zyklon B.

Just because we free associate one word with another, doesn't mean there is an operative connection there.

I try to be critically aware of how I feel about groups of similar people.

Yes, I am biased, I am prejudiced -- not severely, but still. I have been reasonably successful in not enacting negative feelings towards groups of people. I disapprove of people entering the US illegally, however it is done; establishing footholds with anchor babies, evading immigration authorities, marriages of convenience, et cetera. I have become prejudiced toward immigrants, particularly South American ones. Worse, I suppose, is that I am reverse-prejudiced--favorably disposed toward other illegal immigrants -- Europeans, Asians, and Africans. That said, I don't seek out platforms to express anti-immigration views or act negatively toward immigrants, even ones that are probably undocumented.

One of the issues brought up during the BREXIT debate was the number of immigrants in Britain. One group was very unhappy with all the Poles that were in their community. My first thought was "what could be negative about Polish immigrants?" I thought. Many cities in the US have had large Polish neighborhoods for a long time--Chicago and Detroit for instance. But then the whole US has been an ethnic mixmaster for a long time. Britain not so much.

I hadn't ever come across the idea of any gay bars being exclusive to any specific ethnic group because I don't think that there are any in England which are. One thing I am particularly aware of is the way in which gay people who are of African descent often have an extremely difficult time within their families and in their communities. — Jack Cummins

We can probably thank Christian and Moslem missionaries for Africans' difficulties with homosexuality. Some Africans (specifically, Ugandans) I've talked with believe such a thing as homosexuality simply doesn't exist among them. African American communities have a much stronger representation in very conservative Christian denominations than in liberal ones. Gay black men in fundamentalist families/social groups have a tough time finding acceptance there.

I have only been in one British gay bar, so my sample is 1. In the US, gay bars in cities like Minneapolis do not have large enough minority population to support exclusively black gay bars. Chicago, New York, and LA do, however. I should add that the bar culture seems to be fading--not just because of Covid-19, but also because of hook-up apps like GRINDR seem to be faster, cheaper, better--for a quick hook up, anyway. Were I 35 and not 75, I'd probably use GRINDR too.

critically aware — Jack Cummins

That is the crux of the matter.

Humans are probably not born "pre-loaded" with a set of highly specific biases and prejudices, but we may well be born with a propensity towards being biased or prejudiced, one way or another. And then we seem very prone to developing bias and prejudice as we develop. (There are many items in the list of cognitive biases, for instance.) In addition, we have preferences, dispositions, personality traits, orientations, and so forth -- some of which may be pre-loaded, some of which we develop later on. Add the unconscious mind which isn't readily interrogated.

The idea that we can be cleansed of our biases, prejudices, dispositions, preference, et cetera is a non-starter. Frankly, I don't want anyone fumigating my mind for any reason.

That said, behavior can be, and is, subject to at least some social and personal control, and behavior is where the rubber of prejudice hits the road of discrimination. Then there is the feedback loop between behavior and thought. The loop may strengthen or weaken biases, depending on various internal and external factors.

Deploying housing policy which forces identifiable groups (like blacks ) into ghettos is a behavioral intervention which enforces prejudice. Integrated housing is also a behavioral intervention, first intended to improve conditions for black people, but secondly to bring about more casual, normal interaction between blacks and whites.

Another example: Gay bars which encourage/accept a racial/ethnic mix create what may be a singular opportunity for gay men to get to know ("know" in the Biblical sense) other men with whom they might never come into even casual contact. Sexual interaction may decrease prejudice. Gay bars which are rigidly white or black may maintain prejudice.

Class prejudices are not as popular in public discourse these days as racial ones, but a lot of policies are directed toward maintaining class advantages and disadvantages. Personally, I'm in favor of maintaining working class prejudice against very wealthy people, and radically decreasing the advantages of very wealth people (like, by eliminating their wealth).

I've argued elsewhere against over-reliance on commencing with definition. it's often better to allow the definition to grow alongside the conversation. — Banno

One of the annoying features of god-talk is defining god (particularly the Abrahamic God) at the start, then getting tangled up in the barbed wire resulting from the definition, like "can an all-powerful god create a weight too heavy for him to lift?" Or "Is a god who [creates] [allows] evil to exist evil?"

Or, "Can an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent, omni-et cetera god do or not do such and such?" Hmmmm, one wants to ask, "How do you know that a god or God is any of those things, and how would we very finite creatures even think about being present in all times and in all places, knowing everything that there is to know, and being unlimited in any way?"

People make things up. That's fine as long as we remember the difference between what we made up and what actually exists without our help. Unfortunately, we tend to believe our own bullshit.

It was during that time, based on reading and many factors that I really began exploring and entering into a sort of limbo wilderness. — Jack Cummins

College often erodes religion, not so much because of what is taught in classes (though that may well have an effect) but more because of the social aspects of college -- especially if one lives on campus where everyone is trying out new roles for themselves.

Leaving home, working in new environments with varied people, establishing new social circles--all that can undermine old pieties (religious and political). Then having to establish a sex life (especially if one is gay, back when) further undermines one's homespun virtues.

Before long one has become a different person than the child our parents sent off.

This sort of stuff leads to the killing fields. — NOS4A2

I wasn't proposing that we sentence even one of them to a firing squad. I would divest them of their ill-gotten wealth. After that, they would have to get a job and work like everybody else does -- work appropriate to their skills, but not involving re-accumulation of their wealth.

I think losing their wealth and having to live like ordinary people do would be quite severe punishment.

What do you think your education was good for? Any of those things? I really don't, yet I still think it is the most significant thing I possess. I can think of no better way to say it than it allows people to live up to their full potential, to the object of their creation, whatever that might be. — Hanover

Yes, my education helped me achieve much more of my full potential than I would have without it. I shudder to think where I would be without it.

Giving people the means to achieve their potential is very good work, but I'm not at all sure what form of education will serve best--today and tomorrow. I was educated in the 1950s and 60s; but that world doesn't exist (literally and figuratively speaking).

I'm saying though that it seems reasonable to say that the living only truly know their own time — Gregory

Actually, one could argue that the living don't know their own time all that well. It's just damn hard to know what the hell is actually going on. Can you tell me where current events are leading us? We can guess, and we can project optimism or pessimism, but when the culmination arrives it is almost always a complete surprise. 9/11? Fukushima meltdown -- or Chernobyl? Hurricane Katrina? Covid-19?

I'm not saying someone can't have a certain type of certainty about the Bible or Shakespeare, but ones person's certainty is another person's doubt — Gregory

There is much more doubt about what the Anglo Saxons Chroniclers said than what Shakespeare wrote, or Chaucer 200 years earlier. As is the case with other ancient writings, people wrote histories using sources we no longer have access to. Did they make things up or did they copy earlier errors?

Shakespeare in particular contributed quite a bit to the shape of Modern English. There are much more recent writers that are a lot harder to understand than Shakespeare.

You brought up OT religious texts. What about the Greek and Roman philosophers, or poets and playwrights. How is it that Lysistrata is still an amusing play? Well, one reason is that a dildo is still a dildo (which Lysistrata called "her leather consolation"). How certain can we be about Plato? (Probably pretty sure.).

Before the Rosetta Stone and related scholarship, translating Egyptian hieroglyphs was just creative writing--free-association to figures of unknown meaning. Pre-Rosetta and post-Rosetta translations bear no resemblance. (Or so I've read)

I raise the question of how important it is to be right in relation to the whole personal, emotional relationship which we have with the ideas which we have. — Jack Cummins

How important it is "to be right in relation to ... the ideas we have" depends on how much tolerance one has for ambiguity, ambivalence, and dissonance. I have a very strong preference for consistency. Let me compare thinking to interior decoration: Replacing an incongruous lampshade is a small matter. Taking out walls and raising the ceiling is a very big deal.

I was raised to be a good Protestant and did not have major problems with God until I was in my late 30s. I found I didn't believe, and didn't want to be counted as a believer, and one day announced to myself that I was not a believer. This was a much bigger change than replacing the incongruous lampshade. This was changing the floor plan of my mental house. I wanted to live in a knowable world, and a world run by an unknowable God was causing way too much cognitive dissonance and emotional distress. (It is much easier to remodel ideas than remodel emotions.).

The upshot is that the ideas we have, and may wish to change, are supported by emotion (and/or instigated by emotion). Being right (consistent, clear, consonant, content) is very important. That's why discussions become heated. That's why we toss and turn in our beds trying to solve a conflict. That's why the intellectual merry-go-round keeps spinning.

Humans don't do well with a tangle of conflicting, unresolved questions squirming around in their brains like a can of worms. Either we get the worms straightened out and pinned down or we toss the whole thing out.

That's because you have a strong libertarian streak and view the government as your most probable enemy. Meanwhile, the capitalists are screwing you over left and right -- which you don't notice, apparently.

So you don't want to punish the whole class at once? That's fine; we can try and punish them one at a time, if that makes you happier. We'll start with the richest capitalists and most powerful members of the ruling class first, then work our way down to the bottom of the top 1%. Better? After that, we'll deal with your unfortunate case. Don't leave town.

I refuse to acknowledge the notion that “speech has consequences” beyond the immediate physical effects, for instance the movement of breath from the mouth or the application of ink to paper. Since no one but myself can control my motor cortex, I believe the activities you described are the consequence of other, more personal factors. But I can understand the folk psychology of the notion. — NOS4A2

You are taking an extreme position here, and of course you have company. It's a rare idea, indeed, that only one person holds it. A whole folk/pop-psychology school--holding that individuals are entirely responsible for their ideas, reactions, feelings, and so forth, and that no one can influence anyone else--agrees with you. You proclaim the sovereign individual.

We have to agree to disagree, because there is only a small patch of common ground. I hold that we are, in the end, social animals and are influenced by each other. You proclaim the sovereign individual.

Rather than "reparations" for past crimes committed against whole peoples (genocide, slavery, ruthless economic exploitation, etc.), we should defund the class -- the ruling class -- that perpetrated the wrongs in the first place (and they are still at it).

Defunding the ruling class (through expropriation and public ownership of their wealth) would allow for the kind of economic redistribution that could help.

Even if there were a revolution and the ruling class were economically neutered, there are huge cultural problems to over come, and I am confident that we do not know how to do that.

i oppose censoring speech (verbal/written/symbolic). At the same time it is plainly clear that speech has consequences, quite positive as well as quite negative consequences. I think free-speech advocates must acknowledge that speech has real power with real consequences.

Once acknowledged, we are able to manage the consequences. Take Trump's speech on January 6, 2020 and the immediate subsequent trashing of Congress as an example: had the Capitol security force been proactively alert to the potential for a forceful attack, appropriate measures could have / should have been taken to prevent what happened.

Shutting down free speech in Minneapolis on Memorial Day 2020 would not have been the appropriate response (referencing the riots that followed George Floyd's death). What would have been appropriate was a more forceful response to looting and arson. Instead, the police and fire departments withdrew from the area, ceding control to rioters.

A free society, where free speech is plentiful, will see political skirmishes in the streets because speech has consequences. Plentiful free speech doesn't mean that all consequences have to be tolerated.

There used to be a few blocks on Boston's downtown Washington St. called "the Combat Zone'. There were bars, strip joints, porn stores, pizza by the slice shops, whores, sailors, soldiers, gays, straights, all sorts. Sleazy in flagrante delicto. One of my coworkers at Boston State Hospital observed that "people need places like the combat zone to be human -- to get in touch with their basic humanity". That struck me as profoundly true. (This was back in the 1960s)

Nude beaches with their attendant sex-on-offer feature serve a similar function. They are places to get in touch with some basic human animal urges. Because gays have been outsiders, or outliers, in the past these venues have been primary. So do other places for other people -- like Mardi Gras, or Carnival, just for example.

It's unfortunate that many straight folks have nothing similar--no place to serve as a place to get in touch with one's most basic urges, without strings attached.

Maybe such a thing not only does not, but can not exist for most people. Civilization depends on sublimating those basic human urges into productive activities.

In my opinion it’s a good thing that marginalized groups are depicted in high status positions, such as surgeons, because it may alter general perception to some degree — praxis

Sure. It's a good thing.

hot lesbian sex has wider appeal (and I confess to that myself). Years ago I remember being on a nude beach where a couple of hot... — praxis

I'll take your word for it's great appeal. I just hope they don't show up at my favorite all male nude beach.

there is no such thing as the right to free speech at work.
— Bitter Crank

That's different. You're getting paid. You represent the company - and they have a right to project an image, and protect that image from the expression of opinions that might damage business. — counterpunch

You are more accommodating to the interests of employers than I am.

Workers are paid to perform a service or produce a product. When it's convenient, under 'employment at will' law, an employer can fire a worker without explanation. In holy symmetry, a worker can quit without an explanation too. That makes it fair and square (sarcasm). My view is that IF employers want me to align my loyalty and interests with theirs, THEN they will have to align their loyalty and interests with mine. And hop to it!

Some organizations are engaged in genuine good works. It's advisable to speak well of organizations that are doing good work, provided they aren't also engaged in unfair labor practices. (Mother Teresa was a wretched boss.) For the huge remainder of organizations who are in business for no purpose ,ore august than making a profit for shareholders, unconditional positive regard is altogether misguided.

Maybe.
— Bitter Crank

Well, mostly. — Kenosha Kid

— Kenosha Kid

I'm cautiously pessimistic about this. True, most people no longer openly express crudely racist, sexist and anti-gay statements, which is progress. What is not very different now, than in the past, is that people still spend their money in ways which help keep past unjust and unfair discriminations in place.

For instance, most people buying houses tend to look for homogeneous neighborhoods that reflect themselves and their aspirations. For whites, the means pretty much white neighborhoods. Whites who buy houses in black neighborhoods are, more likely than not, looking for a good deal, with the expectation that eventually the blacks will be priced out of the neighborhood (gentrification).

Wage discrimination by sex is less severe, and less common than it was in the past. It hasn't disappeared, but it is better. (This applies to the US: what conditions apply in Britain, Europe, and other places, I don't know.)

In most of the G20 countries, anti-gay policies have apparently been mostly repealed, but that doesn't mean that nobody has strong negative feelings about homosexuality -- their own or others'.

Advertising Media in particular project images of the non-existent post racial America. Advertising images reveal a lot about where we are, and where we are not. TV shows like Grey's Anatomy have a high rate of POC in authority positions, and feature a lot of lesbian relationships. Gay men appear too in GA, but not in the hot sexual scenes that lesbians and straights appear in (which are tediously frequent). I can't think of a gay man who has been as central as lesbian characters or POC, or a gay couple that has done more than hold hands and kissed quickly. (I'm picking on Grey's Anatomy because it's the only TV show that I have watched much of, recently.)

It's just now society has moved on to not being pro-racist, pro-sexist, pro-homophobic. — Kenosha Kid

Maybe. But you are quite correct: when it comes to speech, there is no such thing as the right to free speech at work. One can speak as freely as one wishes, but then might be ushered out the front door.

regarding the film clip: I'm not sure how representatives are the brats in the film clip claiming that if they are offended, they have the right to silence the offender. I've read numerous accounts of this sort of behavior on Quillette and elsewhere. The worst of it seems to be located on certain college campuses, but even adults far removed from college children and their discontents can run into unwelcome informal policing of speech. I'm 75 -- I've seen other episodes of speech policing, but it does seem worse now than in the past.

As for science and philosophy, I don't read enough philosophy or theology to have a strong opinion on their death. It's probably exaggerated. I do more reading in the sciences than philosophy.

Finally people have evolved and proclaimed that even your opinions are dead. — Nikolas

Have people just recently "evolved" or "devolved"? As for opinions being dead... not so much.

One issue could be that gay people can’t have biological children with same sex romantic partners. — praxis

Some gay people consider not being able to have children (two guys, no pregnancy), and generally not having children, to be one of the major advantages of homosexual relationships. No children, maybe no house with a picket fence to paint and grass to mow, and all that. Live in the city; spend one's extra no-child cash on culture or beer or whatever. These days some people probably think that childless homosexual relationships are an unhappy failure. Screw that.

Before gay advocates ran out of compelling civil rights issues and decided to normalize gay marriage, a lot of us weren't (and still are not) interested in marriage. It isn't that we don't want to, or can't make deep and lasting commitments; we do and we can. The idea was that the relationship would last because the couple just decided to keep it going, and nothing more than that was deemed necessary.

Is homosexuality a defect? Lots of people think it is. I accept that, and hold them free to think what they want as long as they don't "frighten the horses" -- e.g., cause a public uproar. (some grand dame in the early 20th century said she didn't care what homosexuals did as long as they didn't frighten the horses.)

My idea of a workable society is one which is tolerant enough to allow people to do stuff that scandalizes socially and morally brittle people, as long as they are reasonably discreet. So wife-swapping clubs are OK as long as the swapping is conducted tastefully behind closed doors. Prostitutes can ply their trade as long as they don't stop traffic, and conduct their business according to safer sex guidelines. Jehovah's Witnesses can knock on everybody's door and offer everyone the Watch Tower magazine as long as they don't do it more than once a month, and don't insist on a long conversation. Homosexuals can cruise the parks as long as they don't make a lot of noise and don't damage the bushes.

Amen.

You left out babysitting — Banno

No, that's covered by "regulating the labor pool". Back in the 60s, never mind which year, Edgar Z. Friedenburg described one of the functions of education as delaying entry into the labor pool for as many people as possible, and prolonging their role of passive consumers. He noted that the function had spread into graduate schools, maybe lasting as long as post doctorate programs. It all depended on the willingness of students to keep paying tuition--which they generally were; tuition was cheaper back then than now. College gave a lot of men a plausible claim to stay out of Vietnam, too. Plus there were chicks, and all that.

Friedenberg himself decamped to Canada to protest the behavior of the U S government (he wasn't evading the draft--he was in his late 40s when he left). He found that Canada had some significant defects in its government too. Surprise!

"He has been included among the "radical romantics" sociologists of education in the 1960s counterculture."

What makes some poorer families value education and others not? Does anyone study that — schopenhauer1

Success often depends on "belief in the efficacy of ... [whatever is being tested]. So, people who believe vaccination will protect their children get them vaccinated. People who believe that they can prevent themselves from getting HIV follow the standard advice. People who believe that education will give their children an advantage make sure their children believe that too.

Disbelief in efficacy results in much different results: unvaccinated children, people getting infected with HIV, and children with little interest in learning.

Early childhood experiences play a large part in later education success. The amount and kind of language that children are exposed to has good and bad consequences. Children in families that are positively and abundantly verbal perform up to standards in school. Children in families that are more negatively and sparsely verbal start with verbal deficits that are quite difficult to overcome. Poor primary school performance is the first result, which follows those children into middle school and up.

Some families are more widely culturally sophisticated (apart from wealth). Children in those families have more 'resources' to draw on in school.

Yes, people study this. But compensating for well understood deficits turns out to be a tough problem to solve. Handicapped families (whatever reason) tend to stay that way. Social expectations can contribute to a given child's failure. Changing social expectations is very hard.

Education is a mass program (and decentralized to boot) dealing with very large numbers, and good fixes are just plain hard to come by, whatever the problem is.

I've been thinking about education since I started teacher training back in the '60s. It's both an appealing and appalling field. I was self-deluded into think I could teach high school. I found my niche in adult education and community health education (did well for an English Major).

There are around 74,000,000 Americans below 18 years of age. Education is of necessity a 'mass program'. A good thing about our lumbering, clunky education system is that it often does a good job. Another good thing is that it is loose enough for at least some odd balls to make it through without being ground up. In general though, the larger and more highly varied population that presents its children for education, the less effectiveness mass education is becoming.

Part of the problem, observed for at least the last 60 years by various observers, is that we collectively aren't even sure what education is supposed to be doing. Sorting the good boats out for lifting by the next high tide, and sinking the low quality ones? Regulating the labor pool? Conducting an enlightenment factory? Training people for dead end jobs? Educating people for a society that ceased to exist a long time ago? Giving people basic skills (to do what?)

I want to start a small school to create a small community of kids in an affluent area where they just may have the resources necessary to band together and make some substantial world changes. — Megolomania

Isn't that what various incarnations of the private school are doing? I get it -- you would like to run your own school. It's a very exciting prospect. I've day dreamed about that for 5 decades, at least (and was never going to happen in my case). Good luck in your efforts. But there's no great accomplishment in educating children who already have a good amount of social capital and increasing it. Nothing wrong with that, of course. That's one of the ways the well off get better off.

But it is a greater challenge to educate students who start with much less social capital and increase their social capitalization (like the skills needed to acquire and use knowledge to their best advantage along with social connections). Of course, minority children get screwed out of good educations pretty often, but the "surprising" fact is that white children do too. And anyone who is poorer than average is likely to get a poorer than average education.

True enough, Britain ended slavery before the US did. To what extent were the terms of the Factory Act honored in the breach, and how much in their observance? Nine hour days for 9-13 year olds; how many Humanitarian of the Year awards did parliament earn for that?

I'm aware that child labor was routine and customary pretty much everywhere for a long time. The US wasn't any different.

Of course I don't know what you posted that merited deletion and a banning threat. Try not to gratuitously antagonize anyone. I understand (from personal experience) how satisfying landing a gratuitous rhetorical punch can be. Unfortunately there can be consequences.

can't speak for the US, but it does seem they didn't handle ending slavery very well. If only the colonies had been returned to rightful rule of Her Majesty - all this could have been avoided! Still, now - it's not being handled very well by progressives either. — counterpunch

Possibly could have been avoided. Had the colonies been a British possession during and after the Industrial Revolution, and given British mills' very strong demand for American slave-cultivated and picked cotton, slavery might not have ended any sooner than it did. Machines to replace human labor in cotton growing weren't available until well after the period of the American Civil War.

It's quite possible that had Queen Victoria and Parliament ended slavery in... 1875, say, the British land-owning subjects living in the cotton growing colonies would have spawned black hatred of the sort that the descendants of British colonists spawned (manifested in Jim Crow laws.)

No, it's not being handled very well by progressives, middle of the roaders, or reactionaries. The most progressive administration--Roosevelt's,1932-1945--did very little to help black people. A solid argument can be made that it was the southern Democrats that prevented FDR from doing more, but it would have been surprising if a brahmin like Roosevelt had championed black people.

who I must know are now watching every word I say — Todd Martin

There's only one owner of The Philosophy Forum and that's Jamalrob. The several moderators are all volunteers and do not have time to watch every word you say, let alone all the other people who may or may not be saying something objectionable. Like me, for example.

If you are lucky, other members will read your posts. If they happen to consider your comments out of order, they might flag your post. That's the extent of the panopticon.

Did you read the case of David Reimer? Circumcision gone wrong; so they surgically turned him into a girl, and raised him as a girl in ignorance - and his maleness re-asserted itself in later life. — counterpunch

I have known about Reimer's case for quite some time. It's pretty bad. According to Wikipedia: "Recent academic studies have criticized Money's work in many respects, particularly in regard to his involvement with the involuntary sex-reassignment of the child David Reimer,[3] his forcing this child and his brother to simulate sex acts which Money photographed[4] and the adult suicides of both brothers."

John Money (b. 1921, New Zealand, d. 2006, U.S.) was Reimer's psychologist. Money was at Johns Hopkins University from 1951 till retirement. He established the Johns Hopkins Gender Identity Clinic in 1965. Money was the co-editor of a 1969 book "Transsexualism and Sex Reassignment", which helped bring more acceptance to sexual reassignment surgery and transgender individuals.

Google can find several lists of possible genders, all bullshit. Here's 5 examples.

Novigender

A gender identity used by people who experience having a gender that can’t be described using existing language due to its complex and unique nature.

Polygender

This gender identity term describes the experience of having multiple gender identities, simultaneously or over time.

This term indicates the number of gender identities someone experiences, but doesn’t necessarily indicate which genders are included in the given person’s polygender identity.

Social dysphoria

A specific type of gender dysphoria that manifests as distress and discomfort that results from way society or other people perceive, label, refer to, or interact with someone’s gender or body.

Soft butch

Both a gender identity and term used to describe the nonconforming gender expression of someone who has some masculine or butch traits, but doesn’t fully fit the stereotypes associated with masculine or butch cisgender lesbians.

Stone butch

Both a gender identity and term used to describe the nonconforming gender expression of someone who embodies traits associated with female butchness or stereotypes associated with traditional masculinity.

Reds under the bed! — counterpunch

As you know, politics make for odd under-the-bed fellows. The vaguely defined left and right share some similar cognitive defects. The arbitrary gender people and the anti-evolution or intelligent design (sic) people kind of think the same way.