, for all we know, the onslaught in the east could be part diversion from digging in elsewhere. Ordinary strategy anyway, but it's anyone's guess.

Ukraine Says Russia Is Preparing to Evacuate Civilians From Occupied Areas of South
^{— Matthew Mpoke Bigg, Yurii Shyvala · The New York Times · Apr 8, 2023}
Ukraine Says Russian Troops Are Evacuating Civilians From Occupied Areas of South
^{— Jeffrey Gettleman, Olha Kotiuzhanska · The New York Times · Apr 23, 2023}
Wagner Group boss tells his mercenaries ‘not to take POWs’
^{— The Kyiv Independent · Apr 23, 2023}
Russian forces ‘forcibly evacuating’ civilians in Kherson, says Ukraine
^{— Peter Beaumont · The Guardian · Apr 24, 2023}
Wagner boss says his forces will not take any more prisoners in Ukraine
^{— Agence France Presse via Al Arabiya · Apr 24, 2023}

Various people think back:

Oral history: Leaders recall dismay, fury on first day of war in Ukraine
^{— Peter Finn, Tara McCarty, Susan Doyle et al · Washington Post · Feb 24, 2023}

, so, Russia rolls into Ukraine at the Gremlin's orders, bombs blazing, grabbing land, Ukrainians defend with foreign aid, and the defense are labeled war-mongers? (From memory, admittedly needing an upgrade, Russia hasn't been attacked/invaded in this millennium, rather there's been some tiptoeing.) Let's try being a bit more specific and see where that leads, let's split "war-mongers" into "attack-mongers" and "defense-mongers". What does it look like with the added nuance? Doesn't have anything in particular to do with taboo.

, you still didn't proceed with your suggestion:

Then what? — above

, especially with the attention they've gotten, it seems like a bad idea. Anything they may do or are doing will be/remain more covert (for the time being at least). Multifront warfare might also be a bad move.

, don't have the articles in front of me, no. They were from back after the leaks, "now we have to reshuffle things", "back to the strategy drawing board", that sort of thing. I suppose it's anyone's guess, time will tell. Could launch some betting/bookmaking, and exchange some money (don't think Bookies or bet365 do that). ;) Commentary on photos and such:

Ukraine could launch its offensive against Russia any moment. Here’s what’s waiting
^{— Tim Lister · CNN · Apr 29, 2023}

Back shortly before the invasion:

Investors Bet Ukraine-Russia War Will Be Averted
^{— Anna Hirtenstein · The Wall Street Journal · Feb 11, 2022}

, those leaked docs also suggest they were/are planning...something.

, nope, not like that. Like "off-topic mudslinging" where two (or more) posters sling mud at each other in a thread.
You thought the tankie comment was about you...? Wasn't even particularly about the forum.
(Hmm What "sanctimony"? What did I just write again...?)

I guess they finally got something moving...

Washington state has now banned selling assault weapons
^{— KING 5 Seattle · Apr 25, 2023}

Small steps...?

@invicta, not sure if this is what you had in mind or otherwise helps any...

The truth values of indexical propositions are context dependent. ^{SEP, W, IEP}
For example, uttering "I am the CEO of IBM" will be right for one person (or zero), false for others.
Other propositions work differently.

Here true/false are taken to be properties of propositions.

Wait, that annoys you , bothers you, irritates your bones, rankles your wit, ... :D Well, get to it then...

Then what? — just above

Moldova goes the same way, down the Kremlin drain. Others? (South Korea to hand the keys over to Kim Jong-un if under ☢ threat?) I'm guessing Navalny and Kara-Murza (along with whoever else) would be disappointed, and there are apparently a few Ukrainians with similar (and non-irredentist) sentiments, contrary to Putin's preparatory efforts.

The continuing attacks continue to spread hate and degrade chances of diplomacy.

Putin has chosen, the Ukrainians have chosen, the UN voted, and a somewhat impressive amount of others have chosen (repeatedly).

Whatever others don't or do, matter as well. Looks like your thing (numbers game?) will have them all wrong, except it happens to be more or less what just one of them wants, denying the rest, abandoning the defenders, leaving the "then what?" hanging.

Putin + compadres declared "the West" an enemy (or the enemy, don't forget the prep moves). ⊕ We've seen the regress (reeee-peatedly), shamming with consequences, anti-democracy, whatever. They rolled their brainwashing/re-enculturation machine out; exposed, didn't flinch. They threatened to the left and right including ☢. The imperfect though at least trying Ukrainians won't be part thereof, refused.

Should an invading force (like what the Ukrainians are facing) try to take over around here, then I'd likely put up a fight of some sort (goes for both places I call home), though it'd be an annoying disruption of my daily goings-and-doings. I'd have a hard time flirting with complicity to such a takeover attempt, the downslope of not standing up to such bulging of the dehumanizing rule and land grabbing aggressor, leaving it to subsequent generations. But to each their own. Go lobbying (not that it matters but I'd welcome it, I think).

You (also) missed the part before the Ukrainians part:

↪Isaac, goodie, a do'er; what about support of, or something against, the autocracy then? Either way, the Ukrainians said no. — just above

Of course it is. — Outlander

As of typing, the votes are about fifty-fifty, so I'm wondering about the certainty you express.

(Please keep in mind, it's not so much about "possible" (technically), as it's about "realistic/feasible"; maybe the opening post wasn't clear enough, my bad if so.)

I'm guessing some sort of sweeping changes would be needed, perhaps cultural/ethical, but that's just conjecture on my part.

PeoplePeople, please keep the off-topic mudslinging elsewhere.

The INBOX for example, or set up a "Flamery" thread in The Lounge or something for more readers. (Could be used as a bin for out-moderated posts as well I guess, as long as it doesn't show up in the front/main feed.)

I don't think this stuff encourages newcomers or random visitors either.

Ah, I see. Much the same way as you support racism then? — Isaac

Hmm Tu quoque?

having wheat production in the hands of Ukraine rather than Russia — Isaac

Nah, your questions aren't necessarily others' questions, except in your head. There are potential concerns that may or may not have eluded you, say, suggested by

Latest on the Ukraine war: Russia warns grain deal in peril
^{— Yuliya Talmazan · Reuters · Apr 24, 2023}

... And after tomorrow, with the regressing ↓ autocracy (apparently (self-)perceived as inviolable)?

_{Political freedom in Russia
^{— European Council on Foreign Relations · 2016}
A Tear for Mother Russia’s Children – A Study of Democratic Deficit, Human Rights Violations and Militarism within the Russian Federation [around 28 ±]
^{— Mark O'Doherty · 2017}
Freedom in the World
^{— Freedom House · 2018}
Why Putin Is Not Okay
^{— Tyler Roylance · Freedom House · Jul 11, 2018}
Do not call Ukraine invasion a ‘war’, Russia tells media, schools [just for the follow-up ↓ below]
^{— Al Jazeera · Mar 2, 2022}
Russia has reasserted state control over the country's major media companies
^{— Steve Inskeep, Charles Maynes · NPR · Mar 7, 2022}
Putin signs expanded anti-LGBTQ laws in Russia, in latest crackdown on rights
^{— Ivana Kottasová, Anna Chernova, Clare Sebastian, Uliana Pavlova, Rob Picheta · CNN · Dec 5, 2022}
Putin declares ‘war’ – aloud – forsaking his special euphemistic operation [↑]
^{— Mary Ilyushina · The Washington Post · Dec 22, 2022}
Russia crosses new lines in crackdown on Putin's enemies
^{— Mark Trevelyan, Guy Faulconbridge, Philippa Fletcher · Reuters · Apr 21, 2023}
(can't be bothered with (or to repeat) more, though parts of the considerations)}

, goodie, a do'er; what about support of, or something against, the autocracy? Either way, the Ukrainians said no.

Some polls of varying quality, but there you have them:

Donbas → Russia in 2014: 35% :up:, 65% :down: ^{(May 12, 2020)}
Donbas → Russia in 2015: 19% :up: ^{(Feb 5, 2015)}
Donbas → Russia in 2021: 25% :up: ^{(Apr 16, 2021)}
Donbas + Crimea → Russia in 2022: 77% :down: ^{(May 24, 2022)}
Donbas + Crimea → Russia in 2022: 87% :down: ^{(Aug 23, 2022; Sep 15, 2022; Sep 16, 2022)}
Zaporizhzhia + Kherson → Russia in 2022: 30% :up:, 30% :down: ^{(Aug 5, 2022; Aug 5, 2022; Sep 1, 2022)}


↑ Sep 2-11, 2022

There are of course a lot more details than this brief summary. Who was polled exactly, who polled, where when, circumstances, methods, etc.

Feel free to add some, if nothing else just to get an overall impression of what's (been) going on.


, well go tell them to stop fighting then. Shoo, off you go. Then what?
(I guess we can re-repeat some cruft that apparently hasn't sunk in?)

:sparkle: necromancy :sparkle:





Nietzsche's cat

, ahh no, the quote was your average rambling point from a movie. :D Vaguely related, might let you know if you need to pay special attention in the future.

Nice start of an explanation, though. Please go on. — just above

Please do. Looking forward to checking later.

Diagrams too. The forum supports drag-and-drop, should be easy for you to attach.

, I'm not going to quote, it'd seem like fingerpointing. If you feel fingerpointed, then nope.

Who do you think the establishment is? It's just guys like me. Their desks are bigger, but their jobs aren't. They don't conspire, they buy boats. — Quentin · Cube (1997)

Nice start of an explanation, though. Please go on.

A theme running through certain comments, often implicitly:
The state is an alien Kafkaesque entity, remote and distanced from oneself.
(Almost like an implicit definition.)
What's up with that?

Will this work? What do you think?

The Kremlin wants ‘real men’ to prove themselves by joining the fight in Ukraine
^{— Yuliya Talmazan · NBC News · Apr 22, 2023}

A military recruitment sign in Moscow reads "Our profession - is defending Motherland." Ads like this have increasingly been popping up in recent months.

“Did you dream of becoming this kind of a defender?” the advertisement asks as it shows the security guard manning an entrance to a grocery shop, next to a produce stand.

Defending, defender? How about attacking and attacker? Or be "real men" like Navalny or Kara-Murza?

Anyway, hard to assess whether these moves are telling of the situation. Running low on mercs?

Once the called the "breadbasket" of the Soviet Union, then of Europe, moving control thereof from Kyiv to the Kremlin would be a win for Putin, both in terms of economy, control and political stature at home.

Russia smuggling Ukrainian grain to help pay for Putin's war
^{— Michael Biesecker, Sarah El Deeb, Beatrice Dupuy · AP News · Oct 3, 2022}

The Russians “have an absolute obligation to ensure that civilians are cared for and to not deprive them their ability of a livelihood and an ability to feed themselves,” said David Crane, a veteran prosecutor who has been involved in numerous international war crime investigations. “It’s just pure pillaging and looting, and that is also an actionable offense under international military law.”

Larger Wheat Harvest in Ukraine Than Expected
^{— NASA · Dec 4, 2022}

However, Russia will likely reap the benefit of a significant portion of the close to 27-million-ton wheat crop, said Skakun. The analysis showed that 5.8 million tons of wheat was harvested from areas that were not under Ukrainian control. That represents a loss of at least $1 billion, Abbassian noted.

Exclusive: Crimea showers Syria with wheat, Ukraine cries foul
^{— Jonathan Saul, Maha El Dahan, Maya Gebeily, Nigel Hunt, Pavel Polityuk, Frank Jack Daniel · Reuters · Dec 19, 2022}

Russia's agriculture and foreign ministries did not immediately respond to requests for comment for this story. In May, Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov described as "fake" the allegations Russia has stolen grain during what it calls its special military operation in Ukraine.

Yeah, thieves grabbed more than land. For some reason, I'd (personally) prefer the "breadbasket" under Kyiv than the Kremlin, regardless of what Ukraine is the "breadbasket" of. Poor assessment on my part?

, right, anarchy (true individualism, absence of organized state, or whatever) is "unstable" by nature, tending away therefrom, like the 1 anarchist being overcome by 2 cooperators. I guess that's sort of what I meant by ...

The true anarchist/individualist is always outnumbered. Will it be by organized thugs or a democratic majority? Or will they be alone? Choosing the "least bad" is rational. — Apr 21, 2023

An observation regarding taxes...

The places I call home have what some would call fairly high taxes. Yet, I know a few ordinary families with, say, more than one car. Societies with public transportation and self-made rich folks. And reasonable general standard of living.

Such like suggests (to me at least) that anti-taxers go by (dogmatic) ideology, but I could surely be wrong.

I suppose the next time someone brings up gun violence in the US I will recommend them to immigrate somewhere with stricter gun laws. :snicker: — Tzeentch

Fair enough.

↪Mikie Apparently the basic function of states wasn't clear to some, and you asked for it so there you go. — Tzeentch

The true anarchist/individualist is always outnumbered. Will it be by organized thugs or a democratic majority? Or will they be alone? Choosing the "least bad" is rational.

Communism proposes the absence of a state and self-governance. That doesn't imply taxes. — Tzeentch

That wasn't the point. It's like a 100% tax throughout.

^{(more of a semantic/dictionary difference, like "state" versus whatever you might call it, not all that relevant in this context)}

The plot thickens ...

Text messages reveal Trump operatives considered using breached voting data to decertify Georgia’s Senate runoff in 2021
^{— Zachary Cohen, Sara Murray, Jason Morris, Paula Reid · CNN · Apr 21, 2023}

, well, you're not going to get executed for not paying taxes. :D

In the US you could (conditionally) get 5 years behind bars, according to H&R Block; apparently something similar in Canada. (I'm no expert on this stuff though. Don't we have some lawyers in the forum?)

In the US, it seems more likely you'd be gunned down in a school shooting.

But, if it's such an issue, you could go to the Caymans (or find a good spot in Baffin Bay and do your own thing) or something? Isn't that the sort of thing you're suggesting?

By the way, Somalia has no taxes, but I wouldn't recommend going there. (Hint?)

, let me put it this way, I don't mind paying taxes. Otherwise I'd vote for the anarchists.

Hmm ...?

Anyway

Against taxes then, more or less like @NOS4A2. — yes?

, this response didn't respond to any of the comment but instead restated what you've mentioned earlier. :shrug: (← need icon :smile:)

, that wasn't quite the point. Maybe then switch to the term "commune" (or "collective" or something) instead of "state"?

, well, sure, except for observations. It's just that you've expressed the diversion thing as more than plain speculation, while seemingly ignoring other parts of the story. (If you build up a lengthy story, then it matters.)

Taxes are literally taken from you at gunpoint. I am against taking things from other people at gunpoint, whether it's done by a common thug or a state.

I'm not against voluntarily contributing to one's community. — Tzeentch

Against taxes then, more or less like @NOS4A2. (The latter ain't taxes in this context.)

Communism proposes the absence of a state and self-governance. That doesn't imply taxes. — Tzeentch

In principle at least, you don't own a company under communism, whether you run/started it or not. Everyone ("the communist state") does, and gains/losses are a state thing if you will.

, speculative. As mentioned (by a few throughout the thread), there's more to that story.

In fact, there's nothing individualist about our society. In the west it is not uncommon for half one's income to be taken directly in the form of tax. Meanwhile governments infringe pretty much at will upon individuals' constitutional and human rights whenever it suits them. — Tzeentch

Against taxes (along the lines of @NOS4A2)?
That would rule out communism and whatever socialist aspects of society.

There's a bit of the tired old "Us-versus-Them" here.
I suppose, with

elected officials like the Frump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Wendy Rogers, Ted Cruz, ... — Jan 27, 2023

that might be understandable, for the US at least.

, societies do differ, though. Some go intentional systematic organized genocide, others take offense from that and observe fair rights, ... There are a good deal of different kinds of governance and political systems. Surely we can assess/analyze them comparatively?

You’re stripped off your assets that is your house or any other property that you’ve managed to acquire and given to the state who in their wisdom wish to share it with the not so well off. — invicta

As I've come to understand it (which may be wrong), you're part of that state. It's not supposed to be "elsewhere", "hidden" or "them", rather it's supposed to be you in part.

, possible (technically), sure, what about realistic/feasible (in light of observations)? You mentioned "not fixed", which might imply diversity, yes?

We're all extremely grateful to @Mikie for setting this up and honoured to have Professor Chomsky contribute to our community here. :clap: — Baden

Seconded :up: :cool:

@Tzeentch, how does it compare to the 2014 Crimea grab?

EDIT

Grabbing Crimea in 2014 apparently came as a surprise.

Invasion wasn't entirely a surprise: Operation Orbital in 2015, Multinational Joint Commission in 2015.

Except, later...

Zelensky asks for proof of invasion of Ukraine allegedly planned for February 16
^{— TASS · Feb 12, 2022}
Washington’s warnings that Russia is about to invade frustrate Ukrainians
^{— Matt Bradley, Veronika Melkozerova · NBC News · Feb 15, 2022}
EU 'did not believe' US warnings of Russian war
^{— John Silk · Deutsche Welle · Oct 11, 2022}

Much rhetoric/propaganda coming out of the Kremlin isn't about south east Ukraine in particular, but the lot.

Maybe they "hoped for Kyiv" (similar to Crimea?) and expected "shooting as usual" in the east? There were some weird activities north of Kyiv across the border.

Grabbing Kyiv would have been a victory for Putin.

We may well be witnessing the early stages where the economies of India, China and Russia coalesce into a single economic bloc. Such an alliance, undeniably offers advantages that are irresistibly compelling. — yebiga

You mean in terms of markets/competition? Something else? Feel free to explicate.

Political freedom in Russia
^{— European Council on Foreign Relations · 2016}
Freedom in the World 2018
^{— Freedom House · 2018}
Why Putin Is Not Okay
^{— Tyler Roylance · Freedom House · Jul 11, 2018}
The Global Expansion of Authoritarian Rule
^{— Sarah Repucci, Amy Slipowitz · Freedom House · 2022}
Putin’s Abuse of History: Ukrainian ‘Nazis’, ‘Genocide’, and a Fake Threat Scenario
^{— Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe, Bastiaan Willems · Journal of Slavic Military Studies · Jul 6, 2022}
Rising Hostility to Democracy Support: Can It Be Countered?
^{— Nicolas Bouchet, Ken Godfrey, Richard Youngs · Carnegie · Sep 1, 2022}
“Ukraine commits genocide on Russians”: the term “genocide” in Russian propaganda
^{— Egbert Fortuin · Russian Linguistics · Sep 7, 2022}

↑ not something that "undeniably offers advantages that are irresistibly compelling"

Whilst, over in Washington and throughout the advanced western world we struggle with systemic racism, equity, inclusion, gender dysphoria and argue over how the climate is changing. — yebiga

FYI: Climate Change (General Discussion)

Rising authoritarianism and worsening climate change share a fossil-fueled secret
^{— Eve Darian-Smith · The Conversation · Apr 27, 2022}

, it's easier for like-minded to come together to form a small commune (where people can come and go), than successfully imposing communism on a large (diverse) society. The former, as you mention, has many examples (though I'd watch for religious cults), whereas the latter (from observation) has led to

Less freedom, oppression, less transparency, less diversity, "enforced human streamlining", ... — opening post

..., authoritarianism, totalitarianism, or the like. Anyway, though kibbutzes were mentioned, the opening post wasn't so much about the former as about the latter.

:up: :cool:

, I definitely differentiate communism and socialism, but maybe my use of the verbiage is off. Communism is a wholesale, overall system, whereas socialism could be exemplified by public schools infrastructures hospitals etc, some number of shared responsibilities maintained via taxes, so there can be a degree of socialism. Well, something like that (though I'm not keen on getting too deep into the semantics). That's what I meant by

As it stands, it seems that reasonably civilized societies tend to include democracy, socialism, capitalism alike. — opening post

And what I had in mind about realistic/feasible.

Yaay, more votes, and a tie. :)

Doesn't look particularly like propaganda (or similar) to me, but feel free to fill missing pieces in...

West prepares for Putin to use ‘whatever tools he’s got left’ in Ukraine
^{— Pippa Crerar · The Guardian · Apr 18, 2023}

There appeared to be an acknowledgment in Moscow that its forces might soon find themselves on the defensive in Ukraine as Russia’s own winter offensive appeared to be slowing down.

The group said that “declarations of unwavering support” were not enough and “actions still fail to match the rhetoric” in a reflection of military assessments in European capitals and Washington.

G7 ministers slam Russia’s ‘nuclear rhetoric’, call on China to improve behavior
^{— Reuters via Al Arabiya · Apr 18, 2023}

The ministers said they reiterated their call for China to act as a responsible member of the international community

, fighting bad climate change more or less takes a global response, making it more difficult. :/

, yeah, thought about mentioning that as a motive, like "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Didn't want to steer/push things tho'.

, apparently communism doesn't scale well. There are various kinds of extremes, say, Nazism, theocracy, anarchy, totalitarianism, ... Observations suggest communism goes (or perhaps started) that way. Democracy has a built-in feature of (sort of legitimately) potentially turning into any of those as well, just takes a majority.

Iraq as "preemptive defence" — boethius

Me personally? Nope. → Mar 21, 2023

I suppose, whatever might be said of Navalny he's not a coward.

Russia's Navalny faces new charges after prison 'provocation' - lawyer
^{— Kevin Liffey, Mark Trevelyan · Reuters · Apr 18, 2023}

Maybe he should have stayed in Germany.

Top Kremlin critic convicted of treason, gets 25 years
^{— Anita Snow · Associated Press · Apr 18, 2023}

Kara-Murza might also have been able to do more out of the Gremlin's (direct) reach.