I was oddly reminded of Star Trek...

Armus: I am a skin of evil, left here by a race of Titans, who believed if they rid themselves of me, they would free the bonds of destructiveness.
Picard: You say you are true evil? Shall I tell you what true evil is? It is to submit to you. It is when we surrender our freedom, our dignity instead of defying you. — Skin of Evil (1988)

If the Kremlin is willing to start a nuclear world war over a fifth of Ukraine, then everyone, including Russians, already has a significant problem to deal with. Is that what we're talking about here? Should Seoul hand the keys over to Pyongyang tomorrow?

Deterrence stops Putin. Appeasement won't. — ssu

And Kim Jong Un is taking notes.

Ukrainians targeting ammunition depots and such is fair enough. Why wouldn't it be? By all means, they should try to destroy bombs that would otherwise fall on their heads, like over the past 1000 days. (By the way, the Kremlin's hostilities don't end there.)

Hmm... Seems like a neat idea (not quite new though)...

Startup Promises to Beam Sunlight from Space (— via TheBrainMaze TBM · Sep 7, 2024 · 52s)

Reflect Orbital

:
Well, if the Kremlin circle is paranoid, then it's not about NATO in particular, but about anyone resourceful supporting Ukraine's independence, sovereignty, etc, established in 1991.
Once the Kremlin decided that they couldn't let Ukraine be, losing some that control/influence (e.g. Crimea), then they'd already set the seemingly inevitable collision course.
Any paranoia on their part is due to Ukraine's independence, that they might increase the rent of Sevastopol or allocate it for something of their own or whatever, that they might look to the EU for cooperation/trade more so than Moscow, anything — in short, that they might go their own way.
Expressing that as supposed NATO-phobia has caught on (which was reasonably predictable).
Take into consideration that it's about control of a sovereign country — the present Kremlin circle's kind of control — and what would you have the rest of the world do?
The Ukrainians and most of the world said "No", which is reasonable.
OK, so, no Ukraine NATO membership, then what?
Besides, exactly how has grabbing Crimea and Donbas (and generous bombing) solved their supposed NATO-phobia?
It hasn't, couldn't, but has instead (predictably) increased Russo-phobia or whatever.
Anyway, that was part of the story above, adding to the discourse (with embedded reference links that I was too lazy to add here), not so much specifically giving a direct counter-argument to your comment, apologies if that was unclear.

1000 days in. The Kremlin still hasn't gotten their way.

Frachon opines:

With Trump in the White House, Charles de Gaulle's prophecy is coming true: One day, the US will leave the Old Continent
^{— Alain Frachon · Le Monde · Nov 7, 2024}

, my apologies, sorry you read it like so. FYI, this stuff has been covered quite a bit in parallel threads (here, here, 2023dec31, 2024feb29, 2024mar21, ...), it's not so much that you're being ignored.

I have a fantasy that Europe will step up to take a bigger military and political role in the world, especially in Europe. — T Clark

Which you share with others, including:

So the EU should start its own military alliance separate from the US. — Benkei

EU defense focus has almost been lulled to sleep by NATO.

, in more recent history, when Russia looked more like today, the invasions they tend to bring up are France/Napoleon and Germany/Hitler. I suppose the Ottomans might qualify.

Kursk, on the other hand, doesn't qualify in this context. There's a negligible chance that Ukraine would invade Russia, had they not invaded first. For that matter, Crimea 2014 seems to have taken most by surprise, and the response (until 2022) were mostly sanctions.

NATO/Europe/China would be reckless to attack Russia; they have the world's largest nuclear weapons arsenal, a fairly straightforward deterrent. It could happen if Russia attacked a NATO member. Europe, Canada, Alaska have bordered Russia for a good while (some over sea), and not threatened with any invasion. Why would they? It's the other way around, defense against Russian encroachment/assault. Just ask the Moldovans, and the Swedes and Finns. Well, and the Ukrainians and Georgians. NATO represents a different kind of threat: the Kremlin can't do as they see fit (which some are thankful for).

Anyway, don't want to spam here, should probably go to the Ukraine Crisis thread instead.

Even knowing Russia's historical paranoia about being surrounded and invaded, we immediately started expanding NATO right up to it's borders. Now it's enclosed by hostile countries backed by the US and western European militaries. No wonder Putin is furious. We blew it. — T Clark

Something's a bit off ↑ here.

NATO isn't seeking to take over countries. Countries seek to be part of NATO for defense and have to qualify (which can take some years).

For a country the size and geography of Russia it might be easy enough to list all kinds of "hostile countries" in the vicinity. It's not like grabbing land resolves the (supposed) situation. But yeah, mistakes were made, things were blown.

→ Nov 2, 2024 (should actually have been in the Ukraine Crisis thread)

If "Putin is furious", it's because the Ukrainians went their own way.

Russians and Ukrainians will live exactly as befits brothers and good neighbors after the implementation of the goals of the special operation. — Sergey Lavrov · Jan 22, 2024

NATO enlargement is one of Putin's lines, but so is the artificiality of the state of Ukraine and it being natural of Ukraine being part of Russia. — ssu

Some things are imported from Russia straight through sanctions. ;)

:up:
"The US" does not refer to a single/uniform/monolithic entity.
I suppose that's exposed by the nature of democracy.
Administrations come and go, whatever sentiments come and go, ...
A weakness of democracy (compared to dictatorships or theocracies for example)?
Well, if politics are like fashions and impatience a driver, then perhaps.
We can just hope that voters generally are smart enough.

Obviously, this (the U.S. setback) is a temporary phenomenon. America will continue its involvement in this conflict, in fact direct involvement. But we have repeatedly said before that according to our forecasts fatigue from this conflict, fatigue from the completely absurd sponsorship of the Kyiv regime, will grow in various countries, including the United States. And this fatigue will lead to the fragmentation of the political establishment and the growth of contradictions. — Dmitry Peskov · via Reuters · Oct 2, 2023

This is what distinguishes a true world leader from the people we call temporary caretakers, who come for five minutes to show off on the international platform, and then disappear just as quietly. — Vladimir Putin · via Newsweek · Oct 17, 2023

The Clown did something he's good at, "drag others down to his level and beat them with experience" (paraphrasing Twain or whoever). Why play his game? That's his circus.

Something I was trying to figure out, but gave up on...
Why would The Clown possibly choose RFK Jr as head of Health?
I kept ending up at spite + show of power, but that's not very charitable.
If I were to categorize candidates as, say -- red, to-be-determined/maybe, green -- then RFK Jr would start out red for that position, and greens aren't that hard to find in the US.

, , you know, a charitable reading might help here. :)

I find myself disagreeing with a fair part of the opening post, but, anyway...

1. How do you impose democracy upon a people by force? — Srap Tasmaner

You ask everyone what they prefer, without others knowing what they said, granting everyone an equal say.
Those are some basics at least; not what I'd normally call an imposition.
If most said "I want Stalin to do as he please", then they may not get a second chance at this, thereby surrendering the principle.
There's lots more associated with democracy, but those are some basics anyway.

He's back! (— Michael de Adder · Nov 5, 2024)

:

run with the anarchist idea, see where it goes. — Nov 3, 2024

Show implications/consequences. (Footwork missing. It's everyone's lives.)

Also, you'd have to prove that removing the justice system of any (transparent) democratic majority, i.e. no justice system, increases justice. (Universal statements like "all politicians / people in charge bad" also need proof.)

Here is my updated animation of monthly temperature anomalies, January, 1940 - October, 2024 (Eliot Jacobson · Nov 3, 2024)

Global Mean Surface Temperature Anomaly: 1881 - 2024 · 12-Month Moving Average (Eliot Jacobson · Nov 3, 2024)

In a world of many, the true anarchist/individualist remains outnumbered.
Will it be by organized thugs, or a (transparent) democratic majority where all have a say?
There's no such thing as a perfect social system; the more individuals, the more unhappy about something or other, that's just history, statistics, and (only part-time rational) homo sapiens.
Genuine anarchy inherently remains as unstable as one against two, tending away therefrom, like the one anarchist being overcome/outdone by many cooperators.
Running with the least bad is rational enough, regardless of some personal sacrifices.
By and large, reasonably civilized societies tend to be democracies, but run with the anarchist idea, see where it goes.
, you'll have to weigh whatever personal grievances against this stuff.

:up: An odd kind of blindness or tunnel vision or something



The Ukrainian situation might have started in some (out of sight) way between 1991 and 2009.

Certain people wouldn't accept a wholly independent Ukraine. That independence itself meant that Crimea wasn't for the Kremlin to control, and their empowering influence over Ukraine would diminish. Loss. "Must regain."

The sentiment might be older, but sometime after the cold war it apparently came into focus, became important to a number of (let's say) "concerned citizens", important enough to solidify the collision course of which we're seeing the results.

Operatives deployed, people friendly/susceptible to "the cause" rallied + more hired, "little green men" sent, Ukrainian "red lines" crossed, takeover, invasion, bombing, grab, all the while utilizing that suppress-rinse-revise machine (including domestically). Hostilities (+ elsewhere).

As far as I can tell anyway, the "root cause" was that seemingly inevitable collision set in motion by a number of "entitled", influential people asserting ownership, and rejecting a friendlier course, or democratic course for that matter. The Ukrainians (and most of the world) said "No".

Might be worth noting that the Kremlin's course of action hasn't resolved (maybe can't resolve) their supposed fear of NATO. To keep NATO at bay, are they going to make Donbas a minefield with anti-missile installations or something?

^{↑ there's plenty more evidence to this story (which is what it is) — coherent, plausible, straightforward enough}

, some Dali "come to life" could be cool (y) Weird eyes might even be a bonus :D

Famous paintings, such as Vermeer's 'Girl with a Pearl Earring' and 'The Milkmaid', come to life from AI prompter Przemek87394560 who used the Chinese AI video model Kling AI. — Museums News

▸ via instagram

▸ via facebook

Check out Mona Lisa :) Entertainment (and fakery) gets a new tool

Voters Warned Ballots Flushed Down Toilet Will No Longer Be Counted (— The Onion · Oct 17, 2024 · 1m:40s)

AI’s bridges between human knowledge and endless solutions
^{— University of Pittsburgh via nature.com · Sep 25, 2024}

Don't know if it means much ...

National Security Leaders for America Endorses Kamala Harris for President of the United States (Sep 22, 2024)

, the four links say about the same but worded differently (Banno's might be the most concise), the first line in my comment just gives a brief summary while expressing the non-ampliativity.

Some typical responses ...
"But God is the creator of any of the possible worlds", which departs from modal logic (and commits petitio principii anyway).
"But it's not logical necessity, it's metaphysical necessity", which roughly does the same by introducing a sufficiently vague/vacant phrase to head off to wherever (just about anywhere), whereas the logic is what we use to reason/deduce things.

A possible world is a self-consistent entirety; possible worlds, W, maintain standard logic.
• possibly p (holds for some consistent world): ◊p ⇔ ∃w∈W p
• necessarily p (holds for all consistent worlds): □p ⇔ ∀w∈W p
To round up the common subjunctive modalities, contingent and impossible can be set out from those.

All these worlds are yours - Except Europa ;)

intelligible — Hallucinogen

... and possible aren't the same; the latter is fairly concise above.

(As an aside, whatever "eternal" means, atemporal mind is incoherent (2022Nov11, 2024Sep22), atemporal living is nonsense.)

Oddly enough perhaps, "God is necessary" turns out to be a definition of "God", it's not an observation or a deduction, so "God" is now at the mercy of the definition if you will. (Also note, we're no longer talking down-to-Earth modalities like "water is necessary for the rain", "toddlers have to drink regularly", ...)

, the only necessity in modal logic is logic itself.

• Banno (Jul 5, 2021)
• Banno (Jul 7, 2021)
• jorndoe (Jul 6, 2021)
• jorndoe (Jul 2, 2024)

Simon & Garfunkel's famous song "Confounds the Science" (3m:8s) :)

https://www.facebook.com/watch?v=996659732502260

https://www.instagram.com/jonathanblankfilms/reel/DA6N-T1o8L4/

Is it worth noting that no one has threatened North Korea, Iran, China with nuclear strikes or other attacks due to supplying Russia?
Doing so at present seems about as odd (or irresponsible perhaps) as Russia dishing out threats to Ukraine's supporters.
Periodically up'ing one's own stakes — or appearance of stakes — seems like a transparent strategy.
If the Kremlin is willing to start a nuclear war over a quarter of Ukraine, then we (the world, including Russians) already have a serious problem on our hands.
Then again, maybe things will change in one way or another.

Just about all nuclear posturing lately has come out of the Kremlin circle and North Korea. (2023Oct20, 2024Feb7) — Feb 29, 2024

Well, I guess ...

there's the North Korean wildcard. — Jul 15, 2024

The 1665/6 history of Eyam (Derbyshire Dales, UK) is kind of inspiring.
Their actions during the Plague likely saved a large number of lives.

Eyam » 1665 plague outbreak
Eyam Village in the Peak District » Plague

Idiotic mask-refusers of today could learn a thing or two, but they likely won't.

Hmm...

I was supposed to feel outraged when Trump said “grab them by the pussy” decades ago. — NOS4A2

Gotta' wonder what happened in the 12 years after. Anything serious? — Oct 2, 2024

You keep saying that the west is content to see Ukraine lose. And although you keep stretching the evidence far beyond what it actually supports, there is an element of truth in this. The west faces no existential risk over the outcome of the Ukraine war and so it's determination to support Ukraine remains limited. — Echarmion

Right.

Yet, the Kremlin circle getting their way like so strengthens their ways for Putin's regressive Russia, strengthens their (aggressive) power, impunity, propaganda/rhetoric. Heck, Putin might be revered as a hero by some, perhaps enough to make a difference.

He was right! — some might then proclaim

Others are taking notes. It would be a victory of sorts for posturing, opacity, suppression, regression, anti-democracy, kratocracy, authoritarianism, and proliferation thereof.

He did it!

Ukraine's supporters might as well be deemed impotent (or cowards). After all, combined, Ukraine's supporters have markedly more resources than Putin's Russia.

He stood up to them all and showed them!

Democracy, freedom, human rights, respect for law, whatever, would take some further hits, as would Ukraine's efforts.

It's the choice of a down-slope that our children's children would have to deal with; we already have historical parallels to learn from. (Not much new here; unlike @boethius, I wouldn't say that "the West" doesn't care.)

Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen!
By rumors on the street, guy slaps girlfriend in public (she slaps too, they say).
12 years later, it hits the news like a supposed :fire: bomb. :D
Might'a taken some efforts to dig that one up.
Gotta' wonder what happened in the 12 years after. Anything serious?

go down a road whereby suffering for humans is warranted. This is deemed as good — schopenhauer1

Right, the unknown greater good defense.

Suppose that the unknown greater good was the reason that Anya Martinez died from cancer at the age of 10 in 2018, after years of suffering.

A question is then what business people have interfering. Such an appeal to the unknown can equally mean that the efforts of doctors and medical researchers are wrong, the will of men against said greater good.

It's not entirely inconceivable... Jehovah's Witnesses and blood transfusions, Deuteronomy 1:31-36, Proverbs 3:5-6, Luke 8:50, Titus 3:6-8, ...

In 2013, Alex Radita died at the age of 15 due to complications from diabetes, weighing about 17kg. His parents intentionally left it to God; they were charged with severe neglect.

Can we say they were wrong? Well, some can and some can't.

By the assumption — an unknown greater good created/known by such a deity — Martinez' and Radita's predicaments were good. The assumption can mean that non-interference is good just the same.

You attribute intent to LLMs. — Banno

It's common to use words like "understands" about trained LLMs, too.
I can understand why that's used, but maybe better words are needed.
"Can-process-but-not-really-understand"?
"Appears-to-understand-but-doesn't-grasp"?

I've come across groups where it has become almost like a sport to use generative AI tools to disprove biological evolution.
They tend to present the generated text in the style of scientific papers, except published on their own sites.
Some were caught having unrelated and fictional authors generated by the tool. :D
Didn't deter them though.
Not the kind of thing I would want here on the forums.

AFFIDAVIT IN SUPPORT OF SEIZURE WARRANT (case 24-mj-1395)
^{— U.S. Department of Justice · Sep 4, 2024}
U.S. Seizes 32 Pro-Russian Propaganda Domains in Major Disinformation Crackdown
^{— Ravie Lakshmanan · The Hacker News · Sep 5, 2024}
The Lies Russia Tells Itself
^{— Thomas Rid · Foreign Affairs · Sep 30, 2024}

Living behind the new curtain is subject to heavier measures.

Арендатор шахт ЛНР начнет экспорт угля через Мариуполь (en)
^{— RBC · Sep 30, 2024}

Land — wheat homes¹²³ art coal — grab.
Expansion.

However, one would be unable to hate in the presence of love. Holes, shadows, illnesses. I find it a compelling metaphor, at the very least. — Wayfarer

Maybe. Where it goes askew, though, is when casting it all in terms of good alone. (Or hate alone.)

[...] God is expected to be something like a perfect hotel manager [...] — Wayfarer

Isn't the sum of good bad neutral prosperity hardship humdrum indifference ... and everything in between, what you might expect without an omni* overseer?

[...] Augustine's 'evil as a privation of the good'. To put it another way, evil has the kind of existence that holes, fractures, shadows and illness has. — Wayfarer

I find it artificial, though it is kind of...neat.
Absence of love isn't hate, absence of hate isn't love.

Britain’s last coal-fired electricity plant is closing. It ends 142 years of coal power in the UK
^{— Jill Lawless · AP · Sep 30, 2024}

UK to shut last coal-fired power plant | WION Climate Tracker
^{— WION · Sep 19, 2024 · 3m:56s}

Well, there may not be a cure for homo sapiens, for the likes of Geoengineering Watch (they have flyers in multiple languages too). :)

Smug, arrogant crap. Makes me want to vote for Trump just to piss you off. — T Clark

Hey don't be like that. Makes me want to piss you off as well. ;) Anyway, what about the truth of the matter? Isn't that more important than pissing each other off?

Power, legacy, influence? Maybe.

Russia-Ukraine War: Putin's Quest To Revive USSR? The Real Story Behind Russia's Expansion
^{— Jessica Goel, Akash Verma, Abhishek Vadav · India Today · Sep 27, 2024 · 3m:52s}

, I suggest using different words since "God" is taken. Or the Platonia-type thing could be dropped.