Reports from the streets...

‘Get out’: Influx of Russians to Georgia stokes old enmities
^{— Christian Edwards, Niamh Kennedy, Eve Brennan, Rhea Mogul, Sophie Tanno, Hannah Ritchie, Katya Krebs · CNN · May 26, 2023}

If I was Georgian, I would also want to be a part of the European Union. The old generation is all about how things used to be. The young generation are about how things could be. They’re like, ‘we want to be part of the European Union – Russians, don’t f*** this up for us.’ [...] I fear that Georgia is a little bit too similar to Russia. I’m afraid it could go either way: It could get better and move forward to the European Union. Or it could get worse and become like Belarus. I really hope that won’t happen. — Daria Polkina (27, Muscovite)

A couple of weeks earlier...

Pro-war nationalists say they are entering Russian politics to counter turmoil
^{— Guy Faulconbridge, Andrew Osborn · Reuters · May 12, 2023}

Girkin told reporters that it was clear that the battle for the "post-Putin" era had already begun inside the Russian elite.

There will be no compromise: war will end with the Russian flag over Kyiv or the defeat of Russia with the aim of its partial occupation, its disarming and its desovereignisation. — Igor Girkin

Mitrokhin opines...

Where Are Russia’s Nationalists in the War Against Ukraine?
^{— Nikolay Mitrokhin · Carnegie · Mar 7, 2023}

those of us who think it was the West's fault for Russian aggression — Manuel

The NATO-phobia? It's just bullshit, an excuse. Russia, the largest country in the world, with, say, 140 million people, needs to be enlarged with a fourth or fifth of Ukraine or it's doomed for destruction? :grin: If they manage to assimilate a fifth of Ukraine, then their supposed NATO-phobia remains an excuse, it's open-ended like that. The Nazi thing? Kyiv isn't a Nazi regime. If anything, Putin's Russia has regressed markedly. And the Ukrainians said "No", "Go away", "Get bent", like the UN, repeatedly. Putin's team knows already, so now and then they whine about, well, more or less whole continents. And the US of course (but not China). Anyway, nothing new here, it's been set out already. But, maybe they'll get away with the land grab. If they do, a pertinent question remains: then what?

, well, you have discussion-worthy things to air on all of those, yes? I suppose, to the extent they're related, you could keep it in one fresh post? Hit it! :smile:

Distance between Moon and Earth is in our heads...? :chin: — jorndoe

If you know the distance between here and earth, it's in your head. I don't, so it's not in my head. Of course distance is something in human heads, it's a value, something measured. There is no value without the measurement. — Metaphysician Undercover

Hm? :brow: Well, if you ask how far away the Moon is, someone might variously say "No clue", "Between 200,000 and 300,000 miles", "The average distance between Earth's and the Moon's centers of gravity is about 360,000 km, increasing about 4 cm a year, and Earth's rotation slowing down accordingly", (translated) Hipparchus said about 400,000 km, ... Maybe no one will respond, doesn't really matter much. It's beliefs + justifications. None of which has any particular bearing on the Moon being distanced, and that getting there is no walk in the park. Whatever distance is discovered, not invented, and not existentially dependent on whatever human discoverers' heads. :shrug:

"Space" is conceptual, or intuitive, as a tool of representation, it really has no place outside of the mind. — Metaphysician Undercover

Distance between Moon and Earth is in our heads...? :chin:

Climate scientists flee Twitter as hostility surges
^{— AFP via Al Jazeera · May 24, 2023}

Someone's busy.

,

↪yebiga, whip up a new post on that. :up: Discussion-worthy, yes? — May 18, 2023

He gets around.

G7 summit: Zelensky accuses some Arab leaders of 'blind eye' to war ahead of Japan trip
^{— Tessa Wong, James Gregory · BBC · May 19, 2023}

Zelensky showcases global leadership in G7, Arab League visits - analysis
^{— Seth J Frantzman · The Jerusalem Post · May 20, 2023}

Ukraine already has overwhelming support worldwide (humanitarian, arms, the UN), but maybe his efforts prove fruitful.


Elsewhere... Map of battles over time. Your mileage may vary. Reportedly, their automated data source usage/assessment is a work in progress

Darn universe.

Gravitational lens gives us a third estimate of the Universe’s expansion
^{— John Timmer · Ars Technica · May 12, 2023}

With such grand scales, uncertainties should be expected, though.
It's not like measuring the front door for replacement.

:up: Seems odd (to me) that people keep missing the obvious

Undoubtedly, democracy isn't all that good. However, the rest are worse. — paraphrasing whoever it was

, whip up a new post on that. :up: Discussion-worthy, yes?

Wagner chief offered to give Russian troop locations to Ukraine, leak says
^{— Shane Harris, Isabelle Khurshudyan, Mary Ilyushina · The Washington Post · May 14, 2023}

Yes of course I can confirm this information, we have nothing to hide from the foreign special services. Budanov and I are still in Africa. — Prigozhin

Wagner head dismisses US paper report that he offered to betray Russian troop positions
^{— Brad Heath, Lincoln Feast, Kevin Liffey, Peter Graff · Reuters · May 14, 2023}

nonsense — Prigozhin

looks like the latest hoax — Peskov

He'd be playing a dangerous game. We'll see if he meets an "untimely" end. :) Teixeira is being prosecuted for stealing and leaking the (original) information; I assume it was that leak. Earlier ...

Ukraine says counterattacks effective near Bakhmut, after Wagner chief accuses Russian brigade of fleeing
^{— Julia Kesaieva, Tim Lister, Olga Voitovych, Vasco Cotovio, Katharina Krebs, Nic Robertson, AnneClaire Stapleton, Josh Pennington · CNN · May 11, 2023}

72nd brigade f***ed up three square kilometers today, on which I had about 500 people killed. Because it was a strategic bridgehead. They just ran the hell out of there.
Instead of fighting, we have intrigues spinning all the time. We have a ministry of intrigue instead of a Ministry of Defense. That’s why we have an army running. — Prigozhin

Monism is an odd word in a way, ambiguous by itself. Not contrary to parallel universes, though.

Say, relativity will have spacetime being one whole, if you will, yet with dual aspects, space and time (perhaps more, depending). And, on a simplistic view, energy and mass relate by a constant factor, E=mc².

On another angle, I suppose Princess Elisabeth of the Palatinate and parsimony together suggest monism. After all, what we learn is all connected/related in one way or other, a kind of unity of the reality we know, or (non-hierarchical) holistic "whole" maybe. By that account, the numinous "wholly other" doesn't seem reachable, but an idea alone.

If that makes any sense.

Isn't skepticism more of an epistemic matter (like justification) than of truth?
I doubt (pun) anyone wouldn't value truth one way or other; that seems wrong, if not absurd.
Anyway, radical skepticism seems mostly an intellectual exercise, that people then move past.

Should we put this to the vote? :)

Suppose someone offered you $500 for parading whatever crap around for a few hours. More? $5000? (What?) However it was imparted (as if a prank? part of a movie? for real?) and payment arrangement was made. Perhaps some known local broker was involved (shady or not), say, last part of the payment to be given by the broker upon being shown appropriate photos/footage. I'm sure something's arrangeable. Easy money.

Would you? — May 8, 2023

Might not be worth it. Who knows how real/honest people would be. I'll just note that I'm confident some would. I.e. some would participate in spreading bullshit/propaganda.

, I was thinking of this Tarskian definition, defining finite, then infinite from that...

S is a set

℘(S) is the set of all subsets of S including ∅ and S itself
- the power set, Weierstraß, Cantor

F ⊆ ℘(S) is a family of subsets of S

m ∈ F is a minimal element of F ⇔ ∀ x ∈ F [ x ⊄ m ]
- no smaller subset

M(F) = { m ∈ F | x ∈ F ⇒ x ⊄ m }
- the set of minimal elements

S is finite ⇔ ∀ F ⊆ ℘(S) [ F ≠ ∅ ⇒ M(F) ≠ ∅ ]
- a set is finite if and only if every non-empty family of its subsets has a minimal element, Tarski

S is infinite ⇔ S is not finite

I'm guessing that's what you had in mind also. (?)

Anyway, didn't mean to distract the regress, ouroboros, etc discussion.

Mathematics has developed a fair understanding of ∞. But ∞ can be a few different things. Cantor (ℵ cardinals) showed that there are infinite different infinites, no less. So, in a concise context, ∞ is ambiguous. The rules of the natural numbers, N (or the real numbers, R) don't apply to ∞s. That's what mathematics taught us.

Dedekind's definition of infinite:

• a set is infinite if and only if there is a bijection between the set and a proper subset of the set
• |S| = ∞ ⇔ ∃ ƒ (bijection): S → T ⊂ S

The even numbers is a proper subset of the naturals, and there's a one-to-one mapping between them, hence the naturals is infinite. Might also be what you wrote, . Also related to equinumerosity.

Tarski came up with another concise definition that can be shown identical to Dedekind's.

, thanks for the comments.
Cognitive biases can easily be part thereof.
The argumentative aspect (and recognizing it) was more my aim here.

CNN reports on the ground ...

Russian forces lash out indiscriminately as Ukraine increases military pressure on frontline towns
^{— Nick Paton Walsh, Natalie Gallón, Kosta Gak, Peter Rudden, Olga Voitovych · CNN · May 8, 2023}

We saw them, as they leave a trail in the sky. We had to stand near the basement because they launched guided bombs. There’s no particular time of day or place for the strikes. — Dmytro Haydar in Orikhiv

Weird. Maybe they have plenty of spare bombs? Something else is going on? Way back when there was talk of a strategy of clearing large strips of land for easier monitoring, then continuously heavily blasting anything dangerous-looking entering. Doesn't look like that here though. Who knows.

, I wonder, how many would say yes/no, and at what $amount (and doing what). Then there are those on more regular payrolls. The full range of spreading propaganda is broad, not always effective.


As an aside, The Americans (IMDb, Wikipedia) is one of those spy shows, collecting intelligence, recruiting, exploiting the vulnerable, seduction/sex, "role-playing", blackmail, assassination, ..., cold war, USSR versus USA, ... Not quite what I'd call realistic through and through, but sort of entertaining.

Suppose someone offered you $500 for parading whatever crap around for a few hours. More? $5000? (What?) However it was imparted (as if a prank? part of a movie? for real?) and payment arrangement was made. Perhaps some known local broker was involved (shady or not), say, last part of the payment to be given by the broker upon being shown appropriate photos/footage. I'm sure something's arrangeable. Easy money.

Would you?


I'm sure some will revel in some of what these folks have to say. :) In chronological order...

The intoxication of war
^{— Chris Hedges · Salon · May 7, 2023}

Focus on the war, not just the battles
^{— James M Dubik · The Hill · May 8, 2023}

Hedges is an award-winning journalist (US); Dubik is a retired lieutenant general and professor (US). Note, the former article is sort of peripherally about the present war; the latter is directly about the war.

, Robert Francis Kennedy Junior is an idiot with a cause, a category or two (or three) below his uncle.
What's up with these mad

elected officials like the Frump, Marjorie Taylor Greene, Lauren Boebert, Wendy Rogers, Ted Cruz, ... — Jan 27, 2023

in the US anyway?
Bernie at least comes through as a better choice of a representative (of course labeled an evil commie), and I'm sure there must be many others, regardless of party, but then those...people rise and the circus comes to town.

EDIT

Wasn't intended to discredit JFK. Englitch being my 2nd language shows.

, it was about another post of yours. You can check via the ↪boethius links.

From the looks of it, the east is where the mercs are sent to die. Only need (a less expendable) regular army to ("volunteer" locals to) dig trenches elsewhere anyway.

I find the thoroughly patronizing attitude towards the Ukrainians...nevermind. They ain't fucking children.


, nice story, sort of. I suppose you'd have the UN being "war-mongers".

The US bombed Nord Stream for the simple fact that it didn't want European opinions getting in the way of war — Tzeentch

The US has been profiting immensely from blowing up the pipeline. — Tzeentch

Certitude? :brow: Many would like to know what happened regardless, but you claim to know.

Pulitzer prize-winning journalist Seymour Hersh and [...] — Tzeentch

Why just him? :chin:

More evidence on the possibility of Russia being the culprit for Nordstream pipeline bombings.
Still the question is open... — ssu

Means :up: Opportunity :up: They were there (unlike Brian Williams)

Yep (@ssu), no particular proof. Some evidence, though.

@Tzeentch, your apparent certainty is (still) too thin. :down:

FYI (for the so inclined)
Origins of the Universe Conference 2018
has a few talks/presentations

, I think capitalism itself is more concerned with profit maximization. :)

π is a number (real), ∞ is not, hence they're not the same.
√2 and e are other examples of irrational real numbers, not ∞ either.
⅓ or 1/3 is a rational number that can't be expressed by a finite string in ordinary decimal notation.

If we suppose there are no circles (in nature), then there are some other shapes instead.
What shapes are possible (in nature) anyway? Are straight lines?

The 2020 documentary Kill Chain: The Cyber War on America's Elections (1½ h), featuring Harri Hursti, might be a worthwhile watch for the interested.
It's fairly tough on a number of parties, including Russia (so peripherally relevant here). Dis/mistrust vectors.
"Kill chain" refers to reconnaissance/observe/collect → target/analysis → weaponize → paralyze enemy → attack; Hursti thinks paralyzing is a crucial part, for example, to get whatever actors to panic.

As-is or a ruse or something? I guess we can only wait and see.

Prigozhin threatens to withdraw his mercenaries from Bakhmut if they lack ammunition
^{— New Voice of Ukraine via Yahoo · Apr 30, 2023}

Prigozhin threatened Shoigu to withdraw the militants from Bakhmut in case of lack of ammunition
^{— Larisa Golub · Apr 30, 2023}
(↑ translation via google)

(I could only find the original interview on Telegram.)

As far as Ukrainian strategy goes, it seems separating east and south (isolating the south) would be worthwhile, assuming it won't be reverted the next day. Then again, that may be what Russian strategists are expecting.

, for all we know, the onslaught in the east could be part diversion from digging in elsewhere. Ordinary strategy anyway, but it's anyone's guess.

Ukraine Says Russia Is Preparing to Evacuate Civilians From Occupied Areas of South
^{— Matthew Mpoke Bigg, Yurii Shyvala · The New York Times · Apr 8, 2023}
Ukraine Says Russian Troops Are Evacuating Civilians From Occupied Areas of South
^{— Jeffrey Gettleman, Olha Kotiuzhanska · The New York Times · Apr 23, 2023}
Wagner Group boss tells his mercenaries ‘not to take POWs’
^{— The Kyiv Independent · Apr 23, 2023}
Russian forces ‘forcibly evacuating’ civilians in Kherson, says Ukraine
^{— Peter Beaumont · The Guardian · Apr 24, 2023}
Wagner boss says his forces will not take any more prisoners in Ukraine
^{— Agence France Presse via Al Arabiya · Apr 24, 2023}

Various people think back:

Oral history: Leaders recall dismay, fury on first day of war in Ukraine
^{— Peter Finn, Tara McCarty, Susan Doyle et al · Washington Post · Feb 24, 2023}

, so, Russia rolls into Ukraine at the Gremlin's orders, bombs blazing, grabbing land, Ukrainians defend with foreign aid, and the defense are labeled war-mongers? (From memory, admittedly needing an upgrade, Russia hasn't been attacked/invaded in this millennium, rather there's been some tiptoeing.) Let's try being a bit more specific and see where that leads, let's split "war-mongers" into "attack-mongers" and "defense-mongers". What does it look like with the added nuance? Doesn't have anything in particular to do with taboo.

, you still didn't proceed with your suggestion:

Then what? — above

, especially with the attention they've gotten, it seems like a bad idea. Anything they may do or are doing will be/remain more covert (for the time being at least). Multifront warfare might also be a bad move.

, don't have the articles in front of me, no. They were from back after the leaks, "now we have to reshuffle things", "back to the strategy drawing board", that sort of thing. I suppose it's anyone's guess, time will tell. Could launch some betting/bookmaking, and exchange some money (don't think Bookies or bet365 do that). ;) Commentary on photos and such:

Ukraine could launch its offensive against Russia any moment. Here’s what’s waiting
^{— Tim Lister · CNN · Apr 29, 2023}

Back shortly before the invasion:

Investors Bet Ukraine-Russia War Will Be Averted
^{— Anna Hirtenstein · The Wall Street Journal · Feb 11, 2022}

, those leaked docs also suggest they were/are planning...something.

, nope, not like that. Like "off-topic mudslinging" where two (or more) posters sling mud at each other in a thread.
You thought the tankie comment was about you...? Wasn't even particularly about the forum.
(Hmm What "sanctimony"? What did I just write again...?)

I guess they finally got something moving...

Washington state has now banned selling assault weapons
^{— KING 5 Seattle · Apr 25, 2023}

Small steps...?

@invicta, not sure if this is what you had in mind or otherwise helps any...

The truth values of indexical propositions are context dependent. ^{SEP, W, IEP}
For example, uttering "I am the CEO of IBM" will be right for one person (or zero), false for others.
Other propositions work differently.

Here true/false are taken to be properties of propositions.

Wait, that annoys you , bothers you, irritates your bones, rankles your wit, ... :D Well, get to it then...

Then what? — just above

Moldova goes the same way, down the Kremlin drain. Others? (South Korea to hand the keys over to Kim Jong-un if under ☢ threat?) I'm guessing Navalny and Kara-Murza (along with whoever else) would be disappointed, and there are apparently a few Ukrainians with similar (and non-irredentist) sentiments, contrary to Putin's preparatory efforts.

The continuing attacks continue to spread hate and degrade chances of diplomacy.

Putin has chosen, the Ukrainians have chosen, the UN voted, and a somewhat impressive amount of others have chosen (repeatedly).

Whatever others don't or do, matter as well. Looks like your thing (numbers game?) will have them all wrong, except it happens to be more or less what just one of them wants, denying the rest, abandoning the defenders, leaving the "then what?" hanging.

Putin + compadres declared "the West" an enemy (or the enemy, don't forget the prep moves). ⊕ We've seen the regress (reeee-peatedly), shamming with consequences, anti-democracy, whatever. They rolled their brainwashing/re-enculturation machine out; exposed, didn't flinch. They threatened to the left and right including ☢. The imperfect though at least trying Ukrainians won't be part thereof, refused.

Should an invading force (like what the Ukrainians are facing) try to take over around here, then I'd likely put up a fight of some sort (goes for both places I call home), though it'd be an annoying disruption of my daily goings-and-doings. I'd have a hard time flirting with complicity to such a takeover attempt, the downslope of not standing up to such bulging of the dehumanizing rule and land grabbing aggressor, leaving it to subsequent generations. But to each their own. Go lobbying (not that it matters but I'd welcome it, I think).

You (also) missed the part before the Ukrainians part:

↪Isaac, goodie, a do'er; what about support of, or something against, the autocracy then? Either way, the Ukrainians said no. — just above

Of course it is. — Outlander

As of typing, the votes are about fifty-fifty, so I'm wondering about the certainty you express.

(Please keep in mind, it's not so much about "possible" (technically), as it's about "realistic/feasible"; maybe the opening post wasn't clear enough, my bad if so.)

I'm guessing some sort of sweeping changes would be needed, perhaps cultural/ethical, but that's just conjecture on my part.

PeoplePeople, please keep the off-topic mudslinging elsewhere.

The INBOX for example, or set up a "Flamery" thread in The Lounge or something for more readers. (Could be used as a bin for out-moderated posts as well I guess, as long as it doesn't show up in the front/main feed.)

I don't think this stuff encourages newcomers or random visitors either.

Ah, I see. Much the same way as you support racism then? — Isaac

Hmm Tu quoque?

having wheat production in the hands of Ukraine rather than Russia — Isaac

Nah, your questions aren't necessarily others' questions, except in your head. There are potential concerns that may or may not have eluded you, say, suggested by

Latest on the Ukraine war: Russia warns grain deal in peril
^{— Yuliya Talmazan · Reuters · Apr 24, 2023}

... And after tomorrow, with the regressing ↓ autocracy (apparently (self-)perceived as inviolable)?

_{Political freedom in Russia
^{— European Council on Foreign Relations · 2016}
A Tear for Mother Russia’s Children – A Study of Democratic Deficit, Human Rights Violations and Militarism within the Russian Federation [around 28 ±]
^{— Mark O'Doherty · 2017}
Freedom in the World
^{— Freedom House · 2018}
Why Putin Is Not Okay
^{— Tyler Roylance · Freedom House · Jul 11, 2018}
Do not call Ukraine invasion a ‘war’, Russia tells media, schools [just for the follow-up ↓ below]
^{— Al Jazeera · Mar 2, 2022}
Russia has reasserted state control over the country's major media companies
^{— Steve Inskeep, Charles Maynes · NPR · Mar 7, 2022}
Putin signs expanded anti-LGBTQ laws in Russia, in latest crackdown on rights
^{— Ivana Kottasová, Anna Chernova, Clare Sebastian, Uliana Pavlova, Rob Picheta · CNN · Dec 5, 2022}
Putin declares ‘war’ – aloud – forsaking his special euphemistic operation [↑]
^{— Mary Ilyushina · The Washington Post · Dec 22, 2022}
Russia crosses new lines in crackdown on Putin's enemies
^{— Mark Trevelyan, Guy Faulconbridge, Philippa Fletcher · Reuters · Apr 21, 2023}
(can't be bothered with (or to repeat) more, though parts of the considerations)}

, goodie, a do'er; what about support of, or something against, the autocracy? Either way, the Ukrainians said no.

Some polls of varying quality, but there you have them:

Donbas → Russia in 2014: 35% :up:, 65% :down: ^{(May 12, 2020)}
Donbas → Russia in 2015: 19% :up: ^{(Feb 5, 2015)}
Donbas → Russia in 2021: 25% :up: ^{(Apr 16, 2021)}
Donbas + Crimea → Russia in 2022: 77% :down: ^{(May 24, 2022)}
Donbas + Crimea → Russia in 2022: 87% :down: ^{(Aug 23, 2022; Sep 15, 2022; Sep 16, 2022)}
Zaporizhzhia + Kherson → Russia in 2022: 30% :up:, 30% :down: ^{(Aug 5, 2022; Aug 5, 2022; Sep 1, 2022)}


↑ Sep 2-11, 2022

There are of course a lot more details than this brief summary. Who was polled exactly, who polled, where when, circumstances, methods, etc.

Feel free to add some, if nothing else just to get an overall impression of what's (been) going on.


, well go tell them to stop fighting then. Shoo, off you go. Then what?
(I guess we can re-repeat some cruft that apparently hasn't sunk in?)