, societies do differ, though. Some go intentional systematic organized genocide, others take offense from that and observe fair rights, ... There are a good deal of different kinds of governance and political systems. Surely we can assess/analyze them comparatively?

You’re stripped off your assets that is your house or any other property that you’ve managed to acquire and given to the state who in their wisdom wish to share it with the not so well off. — invicta

As I've come to understand it (which may be wrong), you're part of that state. It's not supposed to be "elsewhere", "hidden" or "them", rather it's supposed to be you in part.

, possible (technically), sure, what about realistic/feasible (in light of observations)? You mentioned "not fixed", which might imply diversity, yes?

We're all extremely grateful to @Mikie for setting this up and honoured to have Professor Chomsky contribute to our community here. :clap: — Baden

Seconded :up: :cool:

@Tzeentch, how does it compare to the 2014 Crimea grab?

EDIT

Grabbing Crimea in 2014 apparently came as a surprise.

Invasion wasn't entirely a surprise: Operation Orbital in 2015, Multinational Joint Commission in 2015.

Except, later...

Zelensky asks for proof of invasion of Ukraine allegedly planned for February 16
^{— TASS · Feb 12, 2022}
Washington’s warnings that Russia is about to invade frustrate Ukrainians
^{— Matt Bradley, Veronika Melkozerova · NBC News · Feb 15, 2022}
EU 'did not believe' US warnings of Russian war
^{— John Silk · Deutsche Welle · Oct 11, 2022}

Much rhetoric/propaganda coming out of the Kremlin isn't about south east Ukraine in particular, but the lot.

Maybe they "hoped for Kyiv" (similar to Crimea?) and expected "shooting as usual" in the east? There were some weird activities north of Kyiv across the border.

Grabbing Kyiv would have been a victory for Putin.

We may well be witnessing the early stages where the economies of India, China and Russia coalesce into a single economic bloc. Such an alliance, undeniably offers advantages that are irresistibly compelling. — yebiga

You mean in terms of markets/competition? Something else? Feel free to explicate.

Political freedom in Russia
^{— European Council on Foreign Relations · 2016}
Freedom in the World 2018
^{— Freedom House · 2018}
Why Putin Is Not Okay
^{— Tyler Roylance · Freedom House · Jul 11, 2018}
The Global Expansion of Authoritarian Rule
^{— Sarah Repucci, Amy Slipowitz · Freedom House · 2022}
Putin’s Abuse of History: Ukrainian ‘Nazis’, ‘Genocide’, and a Fake Threat Scenario
^{— Grzegorz Rossoliński-Liebe, Bastiaan Willems · Journal of Slavic Military Studies · Jul 6, 2022}
Rising Hostility to Democracy Support: Can It Be Countered?
^{— Nicolas Bouchet, Ken Godfrey, Richard Youngs · Carnegie · Sep 1, 2022}
“Ukraine commits genocide on Russians”: the term “genocide” in Russian propaganda
^{— Egbert Fortuin · Russian Linguistics · Sep 7, 2022}

↑ not something that "undeniably offers advantages that are irresistibly compelling"

Whilst, over in Washington and throughout the advanced western world we struggle with systemic racism, equity, inclusion, gender dysphoria and argue over how the climate is changing. — yebiga

FYI: Climate Change (General Discussion)

Rising authoritarianism and worsening climate change share a fossil-fueled secret
^{— Eve Darian-Smith · The Conversation · Apr 27, 2022}

, it's easier for like-minded to come together to form a small commune (where people can come and go), than successfully imposing communism on a large (diverse) society. The former, as you mention, has many examples (though I'd watch for religious cults), whereas the latter (from observation) has led to

Less freedom, oppression, less transparency, less diversity, "enforced human streamlining", ... — opening post

..., authoritarianism, totalitarianism, or the like. Anyway, though kibbutzes were mentioned, the opening post wasn't so much about the former as about the latter.

:up: :cool:

, I definitely differentiate communism and socialism, but maybe my use of the verbiage is off. Communism is a wholesale, overall system, whereas socialism could be exemplified by public schools infrastructures hospitals etc, some number of shared responsibilities maintained via taxes, so there can be a degree of socialism. Well, something like that (though I'm not keen on getting too deep into the semantics). That's what I meant by

As it stands, it seems that reasonably civilized societies tend to include democracy, socialism, capitalism alike. — opening post

And what I had in mind about realistic/feasible.

Yaay, more votes, and a tie. :)

Doesn't look particularly like propaganda (or similar) to me, but feel free to fill missing pieces in...

West prepares for Putin to use ‘whatever tools he’s got left’ in Ukraine
^{— Pippa Crerar · The Guardian · Apr 18, 2023}

There appeared to be an acknowledgment in Moscow that its forces might soon find themselves on the defensive in Ukraine as Russia’s own winter offensive appeared to be slowing down.

The group said that “declarations of unwavering support” were not enough and “actions still fail to match the rhetoric” in a reflection of military assessments in European capitals and Washington.

G7 ministers slam Russia’s ‘nuclear rhetoric’, call on China to improve behavior
^{— Reuters via Al Arabiya · Apr 18, 2023}

The ministers said they reiterated their call for China to act as a responsible member of the international community

, fighting bad climate change more or less takes a global response, making it more difficult. :/

, yeah, thought about mentioning that as a motive, like "the enemy of my enemy is my friend". Didn't want to steer/push things tho'.

, apparently communism doesn't scale well. There are various kinds of extremes, say, Nazism, theocracy, anarchy, totalitarianism, ... Observations suggest communism goes (or perhaps started) that way. Democracy has a built-in feature of (sort of legitimately) potentially turning into any of those as well, just takes a majority.

Iraq as "preemptive defence" — boethius

Me personally? Nope. → Mar 21, 2023

I suppose, whatever might be said of Navalny he's not a coward.

Russia's Navalny faces new charges after prison 'provocation' - lawyer
^{— Kevin Liffey, Mark Trevelyan · Reuters · Apr 18, 2023}

Maybe he should have stayed in Germany.

Top Kremlin critic convicted of treason, gets 25 years
^{— Anita Snow · Associated Press · Apr 18, 2023}

Kara-Murza might also have been able to do more out of the Gremlin's (direct) reach.

As a form of government to nation states? — Tzeentch

Yep, of

large communities — opening post

I'm quite convinced that Russia will seek to connect to Transnistria if some form of agreement cannot be reached in Ukraine.

A future invasion of Lithuania to connect to Kaliningrad is also not unthinkable. — Tzeentch

Yeah, those are part of the (open-ended) "Then what?" question of seemingly free Russian reins. :/ Except, I'd use "Putin's Russia" instead of just "Russia" — the Russia that's been regressing, too.

Poland building electronic barrier on border with Russia
^{— AP News · Apr 18, 2023}

Let's not forget that Putin instigated the invasion, enlarging the world's largest country (perhaps temporarily), and might well be the one individual that can end the war today. The attacks continue to generate hate and corrode chances of diplomacy.

Yaay, votes. :)
I'd be interested in why communism is or is not realistic/feasible.
Perhaps someone that wishes to remain anonymous could have someone else relay their thinking on the matter? :up:

Let me just add an odd observation on the side.
For some reason, it seems that some (Western) communists and socialists have become apologists for Russia.
Doesn't make sense.
Putin's Russia at least, is a capitalist/opportunist, ruthless autocracy.
Are such apologists going by ulterior motives?

In brief:

Pro-Russia, Pro-Ukraine Invasion Propaganda Channel Run by Former U.S. Navy NCO
^{— Tony Spitz · Veuer · Apr 17, 2023 · 1m:18s}

It was one of Sarah Bils' (aka "Donbass Devushka") social media accounts that disseminated the classified documents leaked by Jack Teixeira. Insider reported that the documents posted by Bils were doctored versions of the ones initially posted on Discord.

Here's a different story than those often posted here. It's a bit old, but does have a kind of internal narrative coherence:

What really happened in Ukraine
^{— Niclas Fogwall · Sep 2015}

Coincidentally, some of the numbers have been posted in the thread. Anyway, there are some patterns here. One of the photos can be found here as well.

In retrospect, how did Fogwall's story fare?

Less straightforward:

The Putin Myth
^{— Kathryn Stoner · Journal of Democracy · Apr 2023}

Belarus' Lukashenko asks for Russian security guarantees
^{— DW et al · Apr 10, 2023}

Because everyone is just standing in line to attack Belarus. :D
What's the play here?


Column: Putin’s war on Ukraine is in the sinister tradition of the Russian war machine
^{— Jonah Goldberg · Los Angeles Times · Apr 11, 2023}

, OK, the quote was bullshit. :up:

, so the quote was bullshit. :D

No one needs formal education, it's a myth designed to produce compliant little consumers. — Isaac

Had to inject this trite old slogan? ("little", too)
Such a waste it would be — stupid even — if we didn't try to retain and learn from what others have figured out before. And thus, we educate.
...
• -400
• 1478
• 1687
• 1821
• 1859
• 1905
• 1921
...
Reducing to "a myth designed to produce compliant little consumers" is pretty close to lying; might want to save the rhetoric/rambling for ehh "less critical audiences"? :D
But of course, part of teaching is revisability of that which is taught.

, gotta' watch for casuistry :up:

, ;)

, getting a bit...racy...? :D

For your entertainment. :)

Atlas of Prejudice
^{— Yanko Tsvetkov · atlasofprejudice · May 4, 2014}

FYI, I'm starting to see some industrial use of AI. Cautiously, but moving in. Unpredictability is a concern.

AI has much to offer humanity. It could also wreak terrible harm. It must be controlled
^{— Stuart Russell · The Guardian · Apr 2, 2023}

Elon Musk and others urge AI pause, citing 'risks to society'
^{— Jyoti Narayan, Krystal Hu, Martin Coulter, Supantha Mukherjee · Reuters · Apr 5, 2023}

Integration into (or replacing) systems that matter will take more experimenting, learning, ... The IT industry has "fashions", like embracing open source, ITIL, virtualization, cloud, now AI.

One of the awful things I've encountered personally, sort of, while chatting with a nurse originally from Russia:

Russian travelers say they fear one question: ‘Where are you from?’
^{— Monica Pitrelli · CNBC · Apr 9, 2023}

Back then, when you say “I’m from Russia,” the first thing people say is vodka, bears, Matryoshka [dolls], and all that innocent stuff. You kind of feel like yeah, I’m from Russia — it’s cool. — Lana

The Kremlin isn't just generating distrust and hate among the defenders. Expected but awful.

On a lighter note, ♫ cue theme from The Twilight Zone ♬, ...

Putin 'body double' prompts incredible claim from Ukraine spy
^{— Tara Meakins · Yahoo · Oct 31, 2022}
Which one do you think is the real one? (Anton Gerashchenko · Mar 20, 2023)

The conspiracy theory that a fake Vladimir Putin visited Ukraine is more proof we are at war with reality
^{— Vinay Menon · Toronto Star · Mar 21, 2023}

:D

There's a social structure here which perpetuates a particular attitude. That's of interest to me to explore. So I do. — Isaac

Feel free to tell, please. Findings?

^{(The usual admin/mod/member/... are common online. The forum denizens are a varied lot, though probably not with the same distribution as the world at large.)}

They want power and to tell people how to live their lives. — NOS4A2

All of them...? :brow:

Just for your entertainment, an assessed ranking of the wealth of world leaders translated to US$s:


Note though, some wealth is by inheritance (all kinds of details).
Both leaders in the Russia → Ukraine war are among the top 15.

Don't know.
I might ask my mother if handing the ticket to the 20 year old would be OK, perhaps just because she's lived a lifetime, which the 20 year old hasn't.
So, I'd lean towards the younger person, which I then voted.
Or, I might panic and toss a die. :)
A variation of the trolley problem.

, hatred can also fuel politics.
Some campaigners focus on degrading their opponents, whereas others focus on telling listeners what they would do if elected.
Occasionally, I've found this an easy indicator.

, that's your response to the massacre?
(by the way, nah, that's not a summary of "the last 400 pages"; I notice you've picked up @Streetlight's torch here (unless @Streetlight is typing in the background :smile:), is that what you mean by "we"?)

, OK not silence. :up: Feel free to elaborate if you have something further.

War/violence is bad, I think most agree.

invasion of Iraq — boethius

... have been fairly consistently and openly criticized (including by Americans), as well it should.

Opinion: ‘At my first meeting with Saddam Hussein, within 30 seconds, he knew two things about me,’ says FBI interrogator
^{— Peter Bergen · CNN · Mar 21, 2023} — jorndoe

With that ↑ out of the way, what's an appropriate response to something like the Halabja massacre?

Support/hail the attackers; apathy/laissez-faire (or silent complicity); say "We condemn these attacks" and go on about your business; diplomacy; pray/hope for divine/alien intervention; sanctions/boycotts; lean on the UN; try flooding the attacker's society with ehh propaganda (or otherwise hope journalists can/will engender sufficient exposure/outrage); try clandestine operations to change the attacker's society('s leadership); surgical/small/larger military interventions; respond in kind; destroy/nuke'm; ...? (← not an exclusive either/or)

Indecision is more or less like apathy/laissez-faire. Unfortunately, critique alone can result in the same.

Anyone have good responses? (This thread alone is on page 463 as of typing, surely someone must have something?)

You think it's a good thing to boycott a medium for diplomacy? — Benkei

Me personally? I wouldn't have walked out. (Wouldn't have blocked them off the airways either.) Don't know if there was a dialogue/exchange though.

Russian accused of war crimes triggers walkout at UN Security Council
^{— Allegra Goodwin, Florence Davey-Attlee · CNN · Apr 6, 2023}

Albania, Malta, UK, US representatives left when Lvova-Belova was speaking.

one of the most highly involved figures in Russia’s deportation and adoption of Ukraine’s children, as well as in the use of camps for ‘integrating’ Ukraine’s children into Russia’s society and culture — Yale School of Public Health » Humanitarian Research Lab » Conflict Observatory

a clear demonstration of their indifference to the fate of the children of Donbas and Ukrainian children — Vasily Nebenzya

Child abduction is serious enough, but Kuleba aired further concerns.

The country which systematically violates all fundamental rules of international security is presiding over a body whose only mission is to safeguard and protect international security — Dmytro Kuleba

Maybe the Russian nappers could publicize requisite registrations and sufficient paperwork, ask UNICEF to take care of it, or something?

This constitutes a major shift for Northern Europe, which used to be one of the most stable regions in the world — above

Hmm why "used to be" ...? NATO isn't going to destabilize Finland.

, well, their reaction to Finland, Sweden → NATO has varied, "who cares", "military and other counter-measures", ... You think they'll invade...Sweden? Doubtful. (their larger bag has other tricks anyway, like Feb 22, 2022, Mar 30, 2023) We can speculate... What might have happened with a more Gorbachev-style Russia? Would Navalny have invaded Ukraine? Would a less aggressive, democratic Russia have made Ukraine forget about (or down-prioritized) a NATO application?

Happy Easter everyone, or whatever (if anything) you call those days off (if you have them off). OK, you know what I mean. :)

As mentioned by , public comments from Russian officials have been all over...

the Russian Federation will have to respond with military-technical, as well as other measures in order to address national security threats arising from Finland joining NATO
[...]
This constitutes a major shift for Northern Europe, which used to be one of the most stable regions in the world — Foreign Ministry Statement on Finland completing the process to join NATO · Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Russia · Apr 4, 2023

Secretary Antony J. Blinken and NATO Secretary General Jens Stoltenberg Before Their Meeting
^{— US Department of State · Apr 4, 2023}

And I’m tempted to say this is maybe the one thing we can thank Mr. Putin for, because he, once again here, has precipitated something he claims to want to prevent — Antony Blinken

FYI, an older but pertinent analysis:

Russia’s land grabs in Ukraine could break the international order
^{— Paul Hensel, Sara Mitchell, Andrew Owsiak, Krista Wiegand · The Washington Post · Mar 4, 2022}

Our research shows that irredentist conflicts — waged with the purported goal of capturing territory to incorporate ethnic kin — are frequently violent. Russia’s recent actions toward Ukraine are similar to the tactics it used in Georgia and Moldova to support separatist claims.
[...]
The average country was involved in 2.5 territorial conflicts around World War I but participates in less than 0.5 today — and many conflicts involve small islands rather than large territories. In the same time period, conflict scholars saw reductions in the average number of countries participating in war. The mean number of countries fighting interstate wars declined from five in 1950 to less than 0.5 in 2007.

Anyway, Ukraine, Finland, and Sweden have chosen. (And Moldova is nervous.)

, not exactly; could be whoever. It just so happens that it was Putin who instigated the Ukrainians' predicament — invasion, bombings, re-enculturation efforts, bullshitting, shamming, ..., continuing to generate hate among the defenders — and he might well also be the one individual that can end the crap today (doesn't even have to give reasons, just send the invaders home, and not to Finland, please). That by itself warrants some attention at least. It's become up to Putin/Russia to dispel the vaguely sinister undertones.

Again (again), ? Already mentioned the thread; I ain't your secretary, have daytime job, life outside the forums. Since you apparently haven't read, you could always hit up google on the Russian down spiral, not a democracy, long story, Ukrainian efforts to join democratic organizations, transparency, hitting on corruption (all the while being bombed into PTSD or worse, and the Kremlin feasting on caviar). Usual directional stuff.

Anyway, in the interest of not hiding anything, here's a different report:

Ukrainian soldier pleads 'partly guilty' at Russia's first war crime trial
^{— Jake Cordell, Kevin Liffey · Reuters · Apr 4, 2023}

Brief...

Russia May Finance Continued War in Ukraine Via ‘External Financial Support’ From ‘Friendly’ States
^{— Tony Spitz · Veuer · Apr 5, 2023 · 1m:7s}

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x8jsobj

In Russia's St Petersburg, locals say Finland 'making problems' with NATO accession
^{— Reuters via The Jerusalem Post · Apr 4, 2023}
In Russia's St Petersburg, locals say Finland 'making problems' with NATO accession
^{— Kevin Liffey, Frank Jack Daniel · Reuters · Apr 4, 2023}

I don't think anything will change for us. It'll only get worse for the Finns because we won't go there, and they'll only incur losses from this. — Yevgeny

We used to consider it a brotherly country of the capitalist world, the closest to us in spirit, in relations, in mutually-beneficial economic relations. But now we'll consider it as a state that is unfriendly to us. — Nikolai

This is just a conspiracy by the Anglo-Saxon world. We have always had good neighborly relations with Finland. — Vasily

If they wanted to unite with Russia against NATO, then I would be glad. — Alexei

Not really news, though, Sweden wants to follow, and the invasion of Ukraine is the problem in the first place. :shrug: (← need icon) Go democracy, quit putting away contenders to (and critics of) the Kremlin, all that stuff, and "problems" might just start evaporating. (y)

Finland in NATO: strategic shift with material gain
^{— Daphne Benoit, Didier Lauras · AFP via Yahoo · Apr 4, 2023}

Spinoza taught us how we come to know an outside physical world; it was by the world of objects making alterations to the state of our biology, our bodies, this, processed through the understanding is our everyday reality or apparent reality. For us, it is our only subjective reality and for us, there is no direct knowledge of reality. — boagie

Hmm...
If stated as knowledge, then the statement can't be reality, since otherwise it would be contradictory, yes?
(Not referring to Spinoza, just the no-knowledge part.)
In my reading (which could easily be wrong), the statement partitions everything into ehh my/our subjective experiences and reality (mutually exclusive), but maybe the verbiage covers more...
We need not become something else to attain knowledge thereof, right?

, there were reports a while back of parents that had to find a way to travel to Moscow, quickly, or their kids would be gone. :/ Allegedly, verified.

I read them. — Isaac

No, you haven't. Things have happened. Not mere ...

opinions speculating on selected evidence. — Isaac

And meanwhile in Putin's Russia ↘ (also mentioned in the thread)...


In other news, spreading ...

Bomb kills Russian war blogger in St Petersburg cafe
^{— Mark Trevelyan, Felix Light · Reuters · Apr 2, 2023}

... beyond Ukraine?

We'll defeat everyone, we'll kill everyone, we'll rob everyone we need to. Everything will be as we like it. — Vladlen Tatarsky

They are opinions, speculations based on a selection of facts. — Isaac

So you didn't read them. Not going to dig them up and list them again, but there's a recent one here (ECFR).

On another note, there's been some speculation that Shoigu is positioned to succeed Putin as head of Russia. He's been a candidate for some time. How likely is it that he would improve things?

Putin's war efforts in Ukraine continue to create haters — Feb 26, 2023

Russia's war on Ukraine latest: Kyiv assails Russia's UN Security Council presidency
^{— Reuters · Apr 1, 2023}
Kyiv says Russian UN Security Council presidency is absurd
^{— The Jerusalem Post · Apr 1, 2023}
Ukraine Calls Russia’s UN Security Council Presidency ‘Slap In The Face’
^{— RFE/RL · Apr 1, 2023}

Fitting date. :)

So far you've just followed the Western propaganda. I've given solid evidence about Ukraine's human rights record, arms dealing, corruption, and oppression and you've come back with nothing but bluster. — Isaac

... just ... propaganda ... bluster? :roll: You've consistently ignored comments regarding the trajectory of Putin's Russia versus Ukraine's trajectory, except indirectly here, and there's been a bit about that already. Russia isn't a democracy.

Here's a way to "save lives". :) — Mar 27, 2023

A president against a president and vice president against a vice president, and a duel takes place, if they are serious. And in this way we are saving the American and Iraqi people. — Taha Yassin Ramadan (Iraqi vice president, 2002)

_{↑ CNN (Oct 3, 2002); BBC (Oct 3, 2002); NPR (Oct 4, 2002)} — Mar 27, 2023

I see nothing wrong with the Parental Rights in Education bill because it restricts the power of the state and expands the power of parents — NOS4A2

In the general case, it's not quite that simple.

Better communication could help prevent deaths like Alex Radita's, inquiry hears
^{— Jason Herring · Calgary Herald · Sep 22, 2022}

Alex Radita (1998-2013) could have avoided much suffering and death, and instead experienced life. In my personal opinion (of little importance), the sentences of the parents were harsh, yet the case shows a problem.