, meddling was/is in all kinds of places, not just "the West".

^{(I suppose we could start categorizing meddlery, like rationales-outcomes, material for a thread on its own, heck maybe a book, tedious. Say, do Transnistria and Donbas have "fingerprints" of sorts?)}

Draconic, domestic oppression-repression is taking things further, as is attempts to take over other nations.

Meddling creepy. People ought to (be left to) make up their own minds by maximum information+ethics and minimal imposition/bias. Takes just one meddler to complicate that.

Misc reports, not much new I suppose ...

^{RAND (Jul 11, 2016): The Russian "Firehose of Falsehood" Propaganda Model
CSIS (Jul 20, 2020): Russia Ramps up Global Elections Interference: Lessons for the United States
Reuters (Mar 16, 2021): Putin likely directed 2020 U.S. election meddling, U.S. intelligence finds
Wilson Center (Mar 4, 2022): The Limits of Putin’s Propaganda
Defense One (Mar 11, 2022): Putin’s Propaganda Machine Is What America’s Far-Right Wants (seemed +speculative at first)
National Post (May 13, 2022): Wesley Wark: Russian Victory Day was a powerful propaganda tool for Putin}

Meddling, subversion attempts, etc, happens all over, sometimes in response to each other.
Systematically suppressing other voices domestically is another ball game.

The situation, however, is very unstable. — boethius

In the scheme of things, I'm guessing this won't change much with someone like Putin (or worse) at the helm.
The history, measures taken domestically (and foreign for that matter), rolling into Ukraine, ...

Could the Russians hold Donbas and Crimea if they settled into just those regions?
It would at least be in line with their earlier propag...err statements, perhaps even be sold as keeping a promise to Donbas Russians.
They'd be taking a defensive position, though, which may not sit well with Putin and team.
And, if foreign support to Ukraine was to keep up, then holding those regions might not be feasible, unless some sort of peace deal was struck, which, in turn, might not be acceptable to Ukraine, after all, they've been subject to the invasion fire and whatnot for some time now.
If possible, then the destruction and killing would cease at least, but I'm guessing it wouldn't fly.

Not quite science, at least not at the moment, maybe some day?

Ethan Siegel writes:

This is why physicists suspect the Multiverse very likely exists (Big Think; Dec 2021)

I guess a few physicists/cosmologists find the idea compelling while going by current theories.

referendum on joining Russia has been postponed by the Russian occupation authorities in Kherson

Via TASS (Sep 5, 2022): Kherson region postpones referendum due to security considerations — authorities

Via RFERL (Sep 5, 2022): Kherson Referendum On Joining Russia Postponed, Official Says

(incidentally answers earlier question in the affirmative)

A couple of things that's come out so far ...

NATO getting directly involved or officially at war with Putin's Russia ups the stakes markedly, be it internationally, with respect to the Kremlin/Putin, loose-cannon'ery, or whatever;
the latest hi-tech equipment/weaponry, or similar, falling into the wrong hands is a tangible risk.

Someone takes this stuff seriously enough. Maybe direct foreign involvement happens some time, don't know, should it?

Regardless, it seems like foreign aid has made a difference this far:

List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War

No one's marching on Moscow or has threatened to do so (as far as I know anyway); should someone? (Alternatively, should someone hand Putin further excuses to whip up domestics and/or spread fear?) Ukraine is being invaded attacked bombed by Putin's Russia — ruinage and killing. Basic facts setting up what others have to contend with and decide from through noise and diversion attempts.

Anyway, apart from the ?s perhaps, nothing new.

There's a rail nexus in Kupyansk east of Kharkiv. Might be of some importance, don't know.

A minute of silence for the fallen on both sides!

:death: :flower: — Agent Smith

Who knows how many civilians, children, non-combatants have been killed... Destroying infrastructure doesn't help.

LB in Kyiv reports (not independently confirmed) ...

^{Sep 10, 2022 Names of the nameless grave. The story of four people whose bodies were found in a ravine in the Kherson region
Sep 10, 2022 In a de-occupied village of Kharkiv region, they found dead people with traces of torture
Sep 12, 2022 At least a thousand civilians died in Izyum as a result of the armed aggression of the occupiers
Sep 12, 2022 Hostages of geography. How the Russians take revenge on Kharkiv for the counteroffensive
Sep 13, 2022 Not a single local resident remained in the village of Udy in the Kharkiv region, the police said}

TikTok can track users’ every tap as they visit other sites through iOS app, new research shows (Aug 24, 2022)

Jaja Liao raised some warnings in 2019

TikTok privacy concerns and data collection (Sep 1, 2020)

Anyway, did Trump actually get something right for once? :D

Donald Trump–TikTok controversy

More or less the usual, "the evil hemisphere" is mad about Russia's invasion of Ukraine, Putin seems to have a bit of sancxiety, ...

, do you mean whether 3-dimensional space needs another spatial dimension to wobble in and out of, if you will?
From memory, that's not needed (for relativity at least).
Might need someone well versed in relativity to respond, in case that's what you meant.

, neat.
Reminded me a bit of Aristotle's wheel, though it doesn't go all ∞.

, the Kherson counterattack?
The Russian puppets were preparing for a vote, with the usual propaganda etc.
Maybe they'll get interrupted by the counterattack (don't know if they already have).

, an "anti-Russian enclave" that Putin's efforts have made more or less = Ukraine.
Arguably, Putin has created much Ukrainian Russophobia (analogous to a self-fulfilling prophecy).

, that's a lot of scrap metal. :o
I'm guessing that moving 100s of tanks from wherever they are in Russia can be seen by satellites or whatever monitoring.
If so, then the Ukrainian defense might get a warning.

Meanwhile, Trump applauds Putin.
Gotta' wonder what'd happen if Trump had been in The White House.

"Fierce" (using Trump's term):

• Russia warns Moldova over Transnistria troops (Deutsche Welle · Sep 3, 2022)
• DISINFORMATION: Russians in the Diaspora face discrimination (Veridica · Mar 21, 2022)

"Programmers may be programs" could go on indefinitely/infinitely/regressively.

There's a whole class of these kinds of thought experiments ... brain in a vat, the dream argument, The Matrix as Metaphysics (Chalmers), The Butterfly Dream (Zhuangzi), Zhuangzi And That Bloody Butterfly (Tallis), maya (the Vedas), Descartes' evil demon, the veil of Isis, ...

Formulated as a proposition, p, they're often thought up in such a way that all available evidence is compatible with both p and ¬p. So, metaphysics, indeterminate, like a difference that makes no difference.

EDIT: ditched quantum woo comment

NASA’s Webb Takes Its First-Ever Direct Image of Distant World (Sep 1, 2022)




Meanwhile, nearby ...

North Korea offering 100,000 troops to help defeat Ukraine, Russian state media says (Business Insider; Aug 7, 2022)

I guess with enough time we all trace back to Africa — ssu

:up: We're all African apes. If someone discriminates personally prejudicially by shoe size, place of birth, freckle count, melanin pigmentation, or some such, then they're a racist (and that's meant as an insult).

Circus.

House conservatives prep plans to impeach Biden (The Hill; Aug 30, 2022)

Should we expect impeachment of ≈ every president onwards? Future statistics going by least impeachments? Hopefully not.

Yeah, @baker, what's with the Russophobia in Ukraine anyway?

, more realistically, Putin is out to grab as much of Ukraine as feasible.
Limiting factors include military resistance, domestic politics, resources, international responses, ...
The Feb 24 attempt on Kyiv failed, but Putin has time.
A moving target (likely).

Doubtful there's any explicit or particular goal to destroy Ukrainian culture.
More like the usual propaganda, Russification, doing away with resistance as needed.
Another (likely) moving target.

I'm sure he has Kremlin advisers, spies, strategists, generals, and such sweating, maybe running scenarios + contingencies or whatever.
A cynical chess game, control, incidentally bombing Ukrainians?

Valentina Matviyenko is the head of Saint Petersburg and chair of the Federal Council of Russia.

We believe in Russia (Jun 10, 2022; in Russian)

Russia has developed over the centuries as a multinational entity, where all world religions freely coexisted. Our people are one of the few who show concern not only for their own welfare, but also for the welfare of all people, humanity as a whole.

:brow:

In fact, Russia is fighting the notorious collective West, defending its very existence as a country, a people, a civilization.

We must constantly remember that Russophobia in Europe has deep roots. And what is happening today is not a sudden, short-term episode, but a constant component of the social and political life of the West.

That's odd. Sure, there was Sovietphobia in most or many places. After that, things changed, there was optimism, friendships, seeking trust. 2-3 decades ago, something like that, I personally know people that went to Russia, business and otherwise. But now, ironically, Putin and compadres stomped that out good and well. To the extent it's real, Matviyenko's "Russophobia" was/is like a self-fulfilling prophecy. Except, who has been wanting Russia to cease existing...? Will she be able to sell the persecution complex (or fear) to the Russian people (while Putin possibly creates a Ukraine of Russohaters)...?

In recent months, information, propaganda, psychological pressure on us has increased many times over. But attempts to erode the cohesion of Russian society, and even split it, to undermine the confidence of citizens in the authorities, as we see, have failed. This is convincingly evidenced by the social and political stability in the country, the high ratings of citizens' trust in President Vladimir Putin, and the approval of his activities.

A bit of irony and a bit of deceit/lying here. (Not going to keep repeating what's been posted.)

We are fighting on two fronts. On the one hand, with the ideas that the West seeks to introduce into the minds of Russian citizens, primarily young people. On the other hand, with neo-Nazism in its current, Ukrainian guise. The state and society simply cannot fail to respond to these challenges.

Right, the evil westerners are more or less accepting homosexuals, democracy, freedom of press, individual rights, ... And the Russian state must put a stop to that at home. The deNazification thing is a ruse, hypocrisy (be it the call for nationalism, actions taken, not looking in the backyard or at the employees, oppression of other voices, moves toward systematic indoctrination, or whatever), an excuse, a means to "collect the troops", another common enemy.

As you know, the Russian Constitution prohibits the recognition of any ideology as mandatory, but it does not prevent certain ideas from being perceived as basic, fundamental.

This request is answered by the adopted law, introduced by President Vladimir Putin, which fixed the establishment of a sense of patriotism and citizenship in the minds of people as the goals of education. I would also note the initiative to create a new all-Russian movement for children and youth, the proposal of the Ministry of Education to teach history in schools from the first grade.
I believe that some steps in this direction are overdue in higher education. In particular, it is worth thinking about updating the programs of the humanities studied at universities.

So, a sketchy justification for an authoritarian Russia, and a call for nationalism.

An exercise in propaganda, and (some) people will lap it up. Nothing new to see here.

Matviyenko did some good things for Saint Petersburg. What happened?

If Russia stops fighting there will be no more war. If Ukrainians stop fighting there will be no more Ukraine. — GA: Ukraine (Estonia, Finland, Iceland, Latvia, Lithuania, Norway, Sweden, Denmark · Feb 28, 2022)

(don't know the origin, allegedly a protester's sign)

As mentioned before in the thread, this does put a liability/accountability/onus on Putin.

Igor Mangushev is a psychosociopath or whatever the right term is. I guess they tend to come out of the woodwork when the opportunity arises.

Video Shows Russian Fighter With Ukrainian Skull, Says He'll Make a Goblet (Newsweek; Aug 28, 2022)

The scientific method can be used to create useful technologies.
Is that what you mean? — Yohan

Don't think that quite captures it. (Unless you're using the word in an unusually broad sense?)
Check examples; science has also done away with bloodletting and phlogiston ...

Keep an eye on this guy.

DeSantis Suspends 4 Elected School Board Members After Report on Parkland (Aug 26, 2022)

Trump is a confirmed unhinged traitor. And Murdoch is his unindicted co-conspirator — Banno

*gah* A couple links over, polls suggest DeSantis is up-and-coming

The rise of sentiments like those of ...

Marjorie Taylor Greene, Nick Fuentes, Lauren Boebert, Matt Gaetz, Wendy Rogers, Kandiss Taylor, Rod Dreher, Ted Cruz, Rick Scott, Ron DeSantis

seem like a symptom of societal decline to me. "Clear the brain-fog, US voters."

(my emphasis)

Sure it can be defended – it works. — 180 Proof

But my point is that the scientific method (which validates by empirical verification) cannot be validated by empirical verification, because it is circular. X cannot be used to prove x. And to claim that "it works" is to say that the scientific method has been verified empirically to work. — A Christian Philosophy

But then the methodologies are sort of self-verifying because of successful models. The success stories are the evidence. Otherwise the methodologies (and science) would have been thrown out.

Scientific methodologies, being evidence-driven, consist of (provisional, tentative) models converging on accumulating domain-specific evidence/observations. The methodologies are activities, observations, evidence collection, experiments, protocols being run, all that. A reasonably stable, falsifiable model could be promoted to a theory.

The methodologies themselves can be verified by the successes. Presumably you're using some while posting here (near-realtime worldwide communication over the Internet using complex electronic devices, electricity in your home). Other examples could be GPS helping us navigate (also uses relativity), cholera control, clean water, exploring Mars with rovers, fair treatments of schizophrenia, the insulin story (type 1 diabetes no longer a death sentence), helping paralysed to talk and move, ... Such like can serve as evidence justifying the methodologies (technically not proof), or they'd been ditched. Science works.

Anyway, I'd say philosophy spawned science, after it had grown substantially, but that goes way back.

Peripheral to the thread, about ambitions and moves (and pushing it or gambling perhaps) ...

^{• Russia extends its claim to the Arctic Ocean seabed (Apr 4, 2021)
• Satellite images show huge Russian military buildup in the Arctic (Apr 5, 2021)
• Russia wants more of the Arctic seabed — right up to Canada's 200 km offshore zone (Apr 12, 2021)
• What is behind Russia’s interest in a warming Arctic? (Mar 28, 2022)}

Back further south ...

^{• Russia is disappearing vast numbers of Ukrainians (The Economist; Jul 7, 2022)}

Sinister, but not unheard of :/

Had a chance to glance over that "World Climate Declaration", only verified a couple of the undersigned.
( or whoever knows climate stuff well)

Their justification is more or less ...

There is no climate emergency

Climate science should be less political, while climate policies should be more scientific. Scientists should openly address uncertainties and exaggerations in their predictions of global warming, while politicians should dispassionately count the real costs as well as the imagined benefits of their policy measures

Natural as well as anthropogenic factors cause warming
The geological archive reveals that Earth’s climate has varied as long as the planet has existed, with natural cold and warm phases. The Little Ice Age ended as recently as 1850. Therefore, it is no surprise that we now are experiencing a period of warming.

Warming is far slower than predicted
The world has warmed significantly less than predicted by IPCC on the basis of modeled anthropogenic forcing. The gap between the real world and the modeled world tells us that we are far from understanding climate change.

Climate policy relies on inadequate models
Climate models have many shortcomings and are not remotely plausible as policy tools. They do not only exaggerate the effect of greenhouse gases, they also ignore the fact that enriching the atmosphere with CO₂ is beneficial.

CO₂ is plant food, the basis of all life on Earth
CO₂ is not a pollutant. It is essential to all life on Earth. More CO₂ is favorable for nature, greening our planet. Additional CO₂ in the air has promoted growth in global plant biomass. It is also profitable for agriculture, increasing the yields of crops worldwide.

Global warming has not increased natural disasters
There is no statistical evidence that global warming is intensifying hurricanes, floods, droughts and suchlike natural disasters, or making them more frequent. However, there is ample evidence that CO₂-mitigation measures are as damaging as they are costly.

Climate policy must respect scientific and economic realities
There is no climate emergency. Therefore, there is no cause for panic and alarm. We strongly oppose the harmful and unrealistic net-zero CO₂ policy proposed for 2050. Go for adaptation instead of mitigation; adaptation works whatever the causes are.
— THERE IS NO CLIMATE EMERGENCY (Jun 27, 2022)

"Don't Panic" and letting science speak with minimal bias. :up:

The "no evidence" claim seems a bit sketchy. (I'm not up to date on the latest, though.)

As far as climate models go, the scientists do the best they can; declaring that known limitations means no effect or no concern would be a non sequitur.

The "CO₂" and "adaptation" comments seem to confirm anthropogenic climate effects (otherwise somewhat or partially irrelevant, the exercise isn't just to provide breathing air for plants).

From there to declaring "There is no climate emergency" isn't quite justified, premature, well, unless the real message is "Don't Panic".

Think we can burn millions of years of accumulated fossil fuels in a century or two without noticeable effects? :down: ^{• What are fossil fuels? (Jul 2010), • If we stopped emitting greenhouse gases right now, would we stop climate change? (Jul 2017), • Why are fossil fuels so hard to quit? (Jun 2020), • Burning of fossil fuels (Mar 2022), • The Causes of Climate Change (Jul 2022)}

Is there reason for concern? Yes.
There are other parts of the equation, like deforestation, pollution, nature/wildlife displacement, biodiversity, population growth, renewability, ...
Weigh best- and worst-case scenarios?
Assess appropriate adaptation and mitigation efforts?

Scrolled by:

World Climate Declaration: There is no climate emergency (Global Climate Intelligence Group; Jun 27, 2022)

Haven't had a chance to go over it though.
Anyone?

Another aspect of the war ... via UNICEF

Over half of Ukraine's children are now refugees or fleeing (some more or less kidnapped), with no light at the end of the Ukrainian tunnel.

As seen before, a generation could be lost, while Putin's machinations bomb away, allegedly to deNazify and/or out of fear of NATO.

The right thing to do in the immediate term would be for Putin to turn the volume down, simple as that.

So far, UNICEF et al arranged for schooling/education for some 600,000 children having fled Ukraine.

"Look what you caused, Putin."

Russian-speakers in Latvia told to pick sides in test of patriotism (Aug 19, 2022)

^{(by the way, I don't think such draconic measures would fly in the places I call home, then again, Latvia borders Russia and has lots of Russian-speakers)}

Setting the distance/durability problems aside, I guess we'd better discover them before they discover us.

Civil war...we can only hope. — Merkwurdichliebe

You're hoping for civil war?

Unintended fireworks ...

, I don't think people generally think of Putin as mad insane.
At least, outside of the usual (sociopathic) authoritarian strategizing/manipulation.
Anyway, so, what's the simplest coherent explanation? (Or a coherent simpler explanation?)
Attempting to push Russia up the food chain?




"Russians and Ukrainians are one people" signs being put up in Kherson (Aug 18, 2022)

... both echoing and contradicting what Putin has said previously.

Also have to take freedom/presence of press/observers into account.

Most Hageman voters believe 2020 election was illegitimate, UW poll shows (Aug 15, 2022)

Sure hope that's not how she got more votes than Cheney.

:D Circus

These candidates lost badly, but now are claiming fraud
Stephen Fowler
NPR
Jul 2, 2022

I want y'all to know that I do not concede. I do not. And if the people who did this and cheated are watching, I do not concede. — Kandiss Taylor (Jun 4, 2022)

We didn't lose. We just found more fraud. — Tina Peters

It is impossible for me to concede under these circumstances. I owe it to my supporters. I owe it to all Nevadans of all parties to ensure that every legal vote is counted legitimately. — Joey Gilbert

... — Harrison Musselwhite, Lauren Martel

My vote to just remain a no isn't based on any evidence. It's not based on any facts, it's only based on my gut feeling and my own intuition, and that's all I need. — Couy Griffin (Jun 17, 2022)

Trumpeople.

, couldn't you just make the proposition knowable?

Bits and pieces from Newsweek:

Gorbachev Feels His Life's Work Being Destroyed by Putin, Close Friend Says (Jul 23, 2022)

At 91 and at poor health, he's probably not going to get killed for his words. Then again...you never know.

Putin Says U.S. Using Ukrainians as 'Cannon Fodder', Trying to Prolong War (Aug 16, 2022)

Yet, Putin could end the war whenever. Blames the entire "west" while bombing Ukrainians. Is his propaganda/diversion working?

You could be all-knowing and not know that you were...?

, sorry, a friend, didn't want to put their name on display. Their comment seemed relevant enough.