What can be learnt from this thread: Countries are evil. Organizations are abominable (well, military ones at least). People are fassholes. Or just stupid. @schopenhauer1 is vindicated. :up: :smile:

Yeah, America's history in South America is a disgrace. Quite something else to have first (or second) hand experience though. — Isaac

Sure, but not in this case (Venezuela).

A bit peripheral here...

https://www.reuters.com/world/americas/venezuela-says-us-military-plane-violated-its-airspace-2021-07-23/ — Isaac

Two of my colleagues are Venezuelan; they fled with some of their family members.
Apparently, the situation there is catastrophic. :sad: (to the point that we're not asking one of them about it, we'll just hail The Beatles, their favorite band)
At the moment, all bets are off when it comes to Venezuela.

Suppose NATO was to close up — thought experiment

Here's one hypothetical scenario:
Putin's Russia would roll over Ukraine at some point (after much destruction); install puppets (Kremlin); bring mercs and hunt Ukrainian resistance mercilessly (they'd now be "terrorists" especially in all Russian media); reinforce Moldovian efforts westward.
At some point (with the aid of infiltrators and propaganda), threaten/scare/bully other border nations; depending on feasibility (plausibility of propaganda/excuses), look into making them proxies, perhaps pick relatively smaller nations.
"♫ I'm guided by the beauty of our weapons // First we take [Ukraine], then we take Berlin ♬" ;)

A hypothetical thought experiment:
Suppose NATO was to close up, hand the keys over to the realtors, and the (now former) members were to replace Ukraine/Russia attention with something else.
There are plenty of worthwhile causes; resources would be freed. (A personal favorite of mine ✍ isn't all that realistic ☮ unfortunately.)
Various scenarios would have varying likelihoods (and consequences), so that's the thought experiment.

Caught On Camera: Russian Ambassador Attacked With Red Paint At Victory Day Event In Poland (May 9, 2022)

, Sweden/Finland joining NATO might even have a positive influence on NATO. :up:

, NATO is (Muslim) Nazis?

Kremlin critic Vladimir Kara-Murza detained in Russia (MSNBC; May 5, 2022)

At least Chomsky hasn't been stuffed into a jail cell (or poisoned) only to be heard from via his wife.

Some numbers ...



The Majority of American Muslims Believe Abortion Should be Legal in All or Most Cases
Institute for Social Policy and Understanding
May 5, 2022

America’s Abortion Quandary
Pew Research Center
May 6, 2022

Would the numbers be substantially different if put to a vote?
I can picture campaign circuses and people on soapboxes... :D

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2021/nov/11/us-inflation-market-power-america-antitrust-robert-reich — Isaac

... collaborative monopolization for mutual benefit?
So, this is where capitalist enterprises can overcome competition that's advantageous to consumers.
I think it's an old faultline of capitalism, that can become more pronounced the larger the enterprises.
Where it becomes a wicked nuisance, is when a societal dependency on the product has been reached.
A bit peripheral in this thread I guess.

"The War Is Getting More Dangerous for America, and Biden Knows It" — RogueAI

Hard to tell how much Old Joe Knows. His age is reportedly starting to show.

, you continue to describe Putin's regime like an ("immune"/"untouchable") automaton bombing-machine, and, in that context, Ukrainians as meek humans (in contrast) that should just surrender.
If that's so, then guess who's next?
The Ukrainians aren't that meek; not automatons either, but apparently they're not bending over; seems a bit like their hatred is solidifying (perhaps moving towards extreme). :fire:

Putin's (ambition)appliance already snagged Crimea; t'was a walk in the park; an hors d'oeuvre?
Ukrainian NATO membership was already conceded by both NATO and Ukraine (albeit not committed to official paper and stamped and sealed); bombs are still falling; OK, not going to cut it, not a peace-maker.
The de-Nazification thing was a hyperbole; heck, Putin has his own outnumbering those in Ukraine; doesn't look like a peace-maker.
Putin has shut down voices in Russia that he doesn't like — keep in mind, Putin's Russia is the invader doing the bombing here, that's what's being protected heavy-handedly.
Zelenskyy has tried to get together with Putin; not much luck there (now Zelenskyy's attempts at diplomacy are "farcical"? :grin:); apparently no peace-maker here per se, which would have been :up:.
Russia has the largest arsenal of nuclear weapons in the world, and Putin wants everyone to know so, wants to deter/threaten/scare/bully everyone.
Taking Putin's ☢ posturing seriously made his regime the top immediate existential threat to a lot of people, against which any (supposed) existential threat to Russia pales in comparison.
Removal of every combatant in Ukraine and handing Putin the keys to Ukraine might well be a peace-maker; no guarantees, though, especially if Putin's intimidation strategy successful.
Besides, Putin's Russia pushing up against Moldova looks great on a map; Transnistria is already in the process of being "converted" (vaguely similar to Donbas).

:point: Maybe you have something in mind that would please the peace-gods? :victory:

Meanwhile, keeping the attacker occupied on multiple fronts (say, some sanctions here, some diplomacy there, some talk of Swedish/Finnish NATO membership, etc) is a traditional approach, while hoping peace can be reached.

Sucks to be bombed.

Inside Zelensky's World (Apr 28, 2022)

(article cached by google, in case you hit a paywall)

, I don't think you quite caught my meaning, but, no matter.

@Literature_Lady comments:

@bykenarmstrong comments:

Is this really the move in the US? :sad: If so, then I suggest females in the US relocate.

... are we ... are we the peace mongers? — boethius

Try peace-mongering Putin. :smile: (it's a "truth or dare")
Takes two to tango.
*cough*

I advocate that they surrender to a dictator who wants to secure his regime against foreign interference (and is willing to use brutal force to do so). — Isaac

And the Ukrainians aren't bending over. And are willing to use force to defend themselves. :shrug:
But, getting together at the negotiation table (or diplomacy) surely is desirable. Let's not try to stop that.

, my emphasis:

In this case I think what Putin says and does is far more important than what you, me, or someone else. He made the decision to start this war. — ssu

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-05-05/victorian-liberal-bernie-finn-praying-for-abortion-ban/101041168 — Streetlight

Looks like Finn is lying, or misrepresenting at best. There aren't any baby killings. I thought there was something about "not bearing false witness" (or however it went) in his book?

Or how else do you propose that the male might carry some of this responsibility? — Metaphysician Undercover

By not being able to impregnate women, well, unless they plan to, with them.
Problem solved, no more abortions. :up:

I’ve seen it first hand in a local anarchist community — NOS4A2

How many people are we talking here?

(I guess Michael Poole's make-shift sheds on the West coast, and the A-Zone in Winnipeg, have some folk, sometimes fewer, sometimes more; nothing to go all "Eureka" about though.)

, , why not have males carry some responsibility here, instead of males just legislating females' bodies? Pregnancy "takes two", right? Suppose the female part of the population rose to vote that in, what do you think would happen? Perhaps if and only if early abortion was made illegal?

I'll readily admit to having an emotional attachment to life. Yet, a couple of months in, a fetus is a lump of cells about the size of a cherry, something like that. That's not a person. My neighbor's kid is. It's more like a cyst. No more a person or conscious than pre-conception sperm and egg. And that's a difference that makes a difference. That said, it's not like abortion is a positive thing (anti-natalists not invited).

^{Some Christians on abortion: We don't care about bodily autonomy or individual choice! We're trying to protect innocent lives!
Some Christians on COVID-19: We don't care about protecting innocent lives! We care about bodily autonomy and individual choice!}

(rant over) :) (nothing to see here, move along)

:up:

Males that don't express they want children, yet are interested in sex, get a reversible vasectomy (or something to that effect).
Legislation and medical science to work out the details.
(Could incidentally prevent some pregnancies from rape.)
Simple, huh?

^{The Guardian via Facebook (May 3, 2022)}

"FBI diddit" :D

Who did Ray Epps work for? (Oct 25, 2021)

Maybe it's a longer-term plan of Putin's after all to connect the Donbas and Transnistria, enrolling them in Russia.
(At least I imagine it's on his wish list.)
Extending Kremlin's influence power control takes a bit of strategizing.
Meanwhile, a wrench or two has been thrown into the cogs.


, this is as good a time as any to tell the Ukrainians that they live in Putin's backyard.
I'd recommend not doing it while in Ukraine tho'.

Thanks, . :up: I now have to put yet another darn book in my to-read queue.

"Dmitry Kiselyov about nukes and Britain"

graphics at 17 seconds and then at 1:27 — Jamal

Erasure of the UK + Ireland (× 2) is a couple of buttons away... (Leveling Kyiv surely would be a trivial matter.) I'm guessing, in principle at least, others could wreak havoc on the British Isles as well, but just have different aspirations, no particular posturing. (France has nukes.)



Elsewhere, some people, ripe for manipulation, bought Putin's stories wholesale ...

... which then made it to the streets.

Never heard of Laissez-faire. Any chance of a quick summation? — I like sushi

Not much to it, in general it means "leave it be", "don't do anything on the matter", tending towards anarchism in political contexts, "none of your business", sometimes perhaps "live and let live" in social contexts, something like that.

Querying google with "define laissez-faire" gives:

Would that include laissez-faire on drugs, (Mexican cartels, veterinarian pharmaceuticals, etc)?

Describe an alternative then. — Punshhh

The end of states and the reign of private property. But this is not quite the thread for that. — Streetlight

Do you think that's realistic, though? (on a large scale, or globally)
I'm kind of thinking that chipping away at all the wretched exploitation is doable.

(Anyway, sorry for the side-track, maybe something for a separate thread.)

Some events in Putin's Russia's ☢ thing ...

^{Feb 03: Russian missile systems arrived in Belarus, allegedly for exercises
Feb 18: Russia (publically) announced strategic ☢ forces drills, Putin oversaw, included launches of ICBMs and cruise missiles
Feb 19: Russian strategic ☢ forces ran exercises near Ukraine border, Putin oversaw
Feb 24: Russia invaded Ukraine :fire: ("special military operation" :eyes:)
Feb 24: In public speech, Putin raised ominous ☢ threat (also referring to the USSR by the way), warning anyone interfering with "consequences they have never seen", mentioned "several cutting-edge weapons"
Feb 27: Televised, Putin ordered Russia's ☢ deterrence forces on alert ("a special mode of combat service")
Mar 02: Lavrov said a third world war would be ☢
Apr 14: Rogozin ("the Roscosmos troll") said on TV that he and Putin met regarding construction of superior missile systems
Apr 20: Russian military notified of successful tests of new ICBM, Putin congratulated military, warns of weapon's superiority
Apr 23: Rogozin said construction of 46 ICBMs (large, ☢-capable) on schedule, ETA fall
Apr 25: Lavrov warned of serious ☢ third world war possibility
Apr 27: Solovyov sort of threatened (or trolled) the UK with erasure by ☢ strike
Apr 27: Putin threatened more or less whole world with swift and capable response to intervention, mentioned it's already been decided (like "set in stone")
Apr 28: Simonyan (state TV) made a feature of Putin's resolve, other TV anchors threatened with ☢ destruction (boasting superiority), a bit echo chamber'y
• Throughout, Russian forces have attacked/destroyed some Ukrainian ☢ power plants/sites, including Chernobyl}

Whatever they're thinking and/or planning, it's rather clear that Putin wants everyone to know, wants to deter/threaten/scare/bully everyone, like "Russia can and ain't shy of first ☢ strike".

Timeline: The events leading up to Russia's invasion of Ukraine (Reuters; Mar 1, 2022)

Regarding organized risk reduction:
Putin just tested a new long-range missile. What does that mean? (Brookings; Apr 26, 2022)
Kind of puts China in a bad light.

More rattling:
Kim jong Un warns North Korea would 'preemptively' use nuclear weapons (CTV News; Apr 30, 2022)

(edited to add Reuters timeline, CTV article)

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10762143/Ukraine-war-Russian-state-TV-says-nuclear-strike-probable-losing.html — neomac

Either we lose in Ukraine, or the Third World War starts. I think World War Three is more realistic, knowing us, knowing our leader. — Margarita Simonyan

Then impeach or replace — or at least pressure or talk to — your leader. Not just de-Nazification of the Donbas, but world war 3 (de-humanification of the world)?

We will go to heaven, while they will simply croak... — Margarita Simonyan

And that could explain the Fermi conundrum just like that. :pray: :ok: Should anyone be observing us, then they're staying way off our radar.

Then again, Margarita Simonyan may just be parroting what Kremlin wants her to. Threat-propagation.

I have zero moral judgement about Ukrainians murdering, in whatever way they see fit, Russian aggressors. — StreetlightX

Others prefer differently. (But your apathy is noted. :up:)

I also think it's misleading to claim they gave him the thumbs up. — Baden

My impression was that Putin somehow managed to sell "safety and freedom for Russians in Donetsk and Luhansk" to Jinping, something like that, but I may easily be wrong. Do you think there's a "nervous" or "uneasy" relationship here?

It sorta seems like a lot of people secretly want there to be at least one big war in their life that they can watch on TV. Peace is boring, [...] — _db

:D

Well, there are people trying to make a difference in the face of power extremism money madness ...

If Putin nukes Ukraine, then Russia will get eyes-on (of the world), and send whoever NATO's way. It would further legitimize blasting Russia's military concentrations just the same. Might embolden Kim Jong-un too, who knows.
At no point (until then), would Moscow have been particularly threatened, unlike Ukraine, hence Putin would have brought Russia into greater danger (perhaps also from China), whether of particular concern to him or not.
The Ukrainians apparently aren't bending over, so now what? Get them to talk instead of bomb.
This is how you threaten more or less everyone, using "world war 3" as a deterrence so you can do whatever:

The risks now are considerable. I would not want to elevate those risks artificially. Many would like that. The danger is serious, real. And we must not underestimate it. — Sergey Lavrov (reported Apr 26, 2022)

if anyone sets out to intervene in the current events from the outside and creates unacceptable threats for us that are strategic in nature, they should know that our response... will be lightning-fast. We have all the tools for this, that no one else can boast of having. We won't boast about it: we'll use them, if needed. And I want everyone to know that. We have already taken all the decisions on this. — Vladimir Putin (reported Apr 27, 2022)

What's next?

• List of foreign aid to Ukraine during the Russo-Ukrainian War (Wikipedia)
• Ukraine Support Tracker (Kiel Institute)

Why is this time so different? — frank

"fool me once fool me twice ..."?

Suppose that some organized team runs a campaign in our neighborhood, anti-semitism, Holocaust-denial, standing on a soap-box, perhaps going door-to-door passing out flyers, whatever.
What would be the right thing to do?
Tell them to "grow a heart", to get lost, call the cops, ...
(This sort of thing can get increasingly problematic the younger the listeners.)
If someone were to do that in our house, then we might get into a quarrel/skirmish, or we might show them the door, which sooort of is what Amazon (and Apple, Twitter, Facebook) has done, to return to Peter's article.
Consequently, let's just say they'd be abusing freedom, that their particular speech isn't worth protecting ( :up:), more like the opposite.
That's not due to being against free speech.
The slippery slope () is what makes it non-trivial.

In my view, the US/NATO are as much to blame for this war as Russia. — Benkei

The Ukrainian NATO membership threat again...? It's already been conceded both by NATO and Ukraine.

Zelenskyy calls again for meeting with Putin ‘to end the war’ (Al Jazeera; Apr 23, 2022)



That story at least came and went. The invasion is a snaffle, a grab (or attempted anyway), orchestrated by Putin, perhaps planned well ahead or otherwise simmering for a year prior.

The digital onslaught, which Microsoft said began one year prior to Russia's Feb. 24 invasion, may have laid the groundwork for different military missions in the war-torn territory, researchers found. — Microsoft discloses onslaught of Russian cyberattacks on Ukraine (Reuters · Apr 27, 2022)

Except, this time around (unlike the Crimean "military operation"), Putin got a bloody nose (and perhaps lost a bit of pride, who knows).

That simple eh, , black'n'white rule-setting, so unlike ethics?
Examples to the contrary have been given, though.
Reduction to a trivial rule doesn't quite work.

, speech isn't all propositional; showed as much.

Freedom of expression is a starting point, but not really the end of it.
(I kind of like true speech myself, but that's not the end of it either.)

Returning to the article linked in the opening post, exposing hordes of crazies to the mad ramblings on Parler didn't sit well with Amazon, so they were told to go do their thing elsewhere.

(edited for content)

My emphasis:

Free speech does mean speech is free from consequences, and it ought to be treated that way. — NOS4A2

Too simplistic, there's more to the story, but it's not that free speech/expression ought to be ditched of course. (Once upon a time I'd have said that the only way to respond to speech is more speech.)

There are no simple answers it seems, and, meanwhile, AA will continue to see (or claim) "Fascists" oppressing them. — jorndoe

There can already be consequences. You might have to assume bona fides speakers, and soundly judging listeners, for example.

, right, it's not quite a trivial matter.

Free speech no longer exists in our modern era. — javi2541997

Sure it does; otherwise Chomsky would have been gagged. ;) Those things you mention haven't stopped/prevented Trump from speaking, they just took away his use of their platforms to do so (mentioned in the article).

Fascism is an over used word — javi2541997

:up:

Anyway, Peters use verbiage like "a nexus of extremism", "has a problem with far-right violence", to describe Parler. Couldn't they have told their posters to chill out and discuss things (maturely)?

Putin's Witches
https://www.asianews.it/news-en/Putin's-Witches-55347.html — neomac

Good grief man. It's 2022. Not 22.

Haven't we just got through repeating in painstaking detail how Neo-Nazis are not justification for invasion? — Isaac

Unless perhaps

(headline) "Nazi Ukraine marching on Moscow" — jorndoe

Currently, we have Putin's Russia invading/bombing Ukraine.

Funny how [...] — Isaac

Ukraine has a Neo-Nazi problem. Putin used it (and specifically, US covering up their alliance with them) as a justification an excuse for the invasion. — Isaac

Double standards, hypocrisy (straight from the initiator/invaders).

Us then going ahead and doing exactly what Putin wants to say we do (denying the blindingly obvious Neo-Nazi issue) is playing directly into his propaganda. — Isaac

"blindingly obvious" is sort of a weasel phrase here (slant, bias), but OK then, maybe it's time to secure extremist-infested Russian areas by force (call it, say, "an armed humanitarian operation")?

Right, yes, there are extremists in Russia and Ukraine (and elsewhere). Edging towards stability + freedom and such might help with sidelining/decimating them? Heavy emphasis on the problem just in Ukraine (by Putin in particular) is out of proportion though, and it's not like (headline) "Nazi Ukraine marching on Moscow". Speculation: if the Ukrainian parliament had sessions discussing/addressing the problem, then Putin might just have found another excuse.

^{• List of neo-Nazi organizations, • Racism by country, • List of white nationalist organizations, • Geography of antisemitism}

Combatants:

• Attackers: Russia (led by Putin), Chechens/mercs/who knows, ...
• Defenders: Ukraine (led by Zelenskyy), some volunteers/Belarusian separatists, ...

Otherwise involved (in αβic order, incomplete):

• Ukraine: Australia, Canada, France, Germany, Italy, Japan, Poland, Turkey, UK, USA, ...