• Ukraine Crisis

    :o Seems the commenters agree — bad conditions and something ought be done. Those farmers doing unchecked capitalism (or being assholes) need slapping.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Thomas L Friedman opines (The New York Times):

    China and Russia Are Giving Authoritarianism a Bad Name (Apr 18, 2022)

    :D

    You can sit down now. — Putin to Naryshkin (intelligence chief)
  • The Penrose Bounce.
    No. That's exactly the point of gods. They give closure to the infinite regress.Haglund

    Why? The diallelus applies just the same.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Yeah, kind of starting to think all the "NATO" "Nazi" "Putin is unstable" whatever stories are diversions or bullshit, and the invasion is a snaffle. (Or attempted, so far.)
    What more reason do you need? Coherent.
    Of course NATO would get in the way of that (baad for momentum), maybe even China could, and now, unlike Crimea, the Ukrainians sure have (baad for momentum). Roll into Donbas (good for momentum).

    another stage of this operation is beginning — Sergei Lavrov (Apr 19, 2022)

    Yeah, Sweden and Finland should join NATO. Might have a good influence there, too.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , such a deal would have to be negotiated by Ukraine (the invaded) and Russia (the invader). A bit hard to do with bombs falling (and the implied threat of ramping up military), despite concessions having been made in public for all to hear. Ironically perhaps, something nuclear missiles and NATO have in common is deterrence. Ukraine has neither, just ruined infrastructure, dead, etc, and apparently some war crimes committed. The ball's in the invader's court in that respect and has been for a bit.

    , right, no such thing as simple here. The NATO thing was a primary concern though and has been conceded. Getting to the negotiation table is warranted (if that concern was genuine and primary in the first place). Otherwise... Peace was never in the cards? The invasion was inevitable? Long-term plan? :/ (I don't think rhetoric like "weak" and "decadent" is much of a rationale for war, just the usual hot air.) So far, Ukraine has lost infrastructure, people, freedom, but has kicked a good deal of invaders. Russia has lost soldiers, weaponry, freedom of press, trust/goodwill from several other parties, economics, but has inflicted damage on its targets, and is holding some areas.

    Completely unrelated, I'm rooting for Sergiy S Tkachenko, an accomplished Ukrainian typographer that's put together nifty fonts and such. Otherwise occupied at the moment, though.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , it's no longer news, and hasn't been for some time: No NATO membership for Ukraine (said both by NATO and Ukraine). It hasn't been an excuse for a while. Bombs are still going, though, which sort of makes the demand/excuse a bit suspect. And, going by rumors, Russia is ramping up military "operations" (convoys, conscriptions, whatever), instead of committing more to diplomacy/negotiations/assurances.

    So, the wretched nuclear ☢ (plus perhaps ☣ ⚗) scenario... The threat has been made by Putin and taken seriously enough. I doubt anyone wants to call him out on it, yet how far can the "hostage-taking" be taken? Where's the threshold (if any)? Presumably, Putin making good on his threats would be.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Edmund Adam writes:

    Analysis: Ukraine war: The history of conflict shows how elective wars ultimately fail (Mar 29, 2022)

    (Didn't take Crimea and such into account, though.)

    Going to be costly for Putin's Russia, ☢ rattling or not.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Jonathan Freedland comments:

    Putin still has friends in the west – and they’re gaining ground (The Guardian; Apr 8, 2022)

    Comparatively, there's a good deal more public self-criticism and soul-searching in the US than in Russia. A problem in the US is that it's kind of drowning, everything from all kinds of crud to intellectuals like Chomsky. In Putin's Russia, much like in China, they're oppressed (including heavy-handedly), whether covertly by (scared-offended) oligarchs or Putin or whoever. At least in the US, like in various European countries and Downunder and other places, people can launch scathing societal/political critiques. Russia's propaganda machine has the easier job, and a bit of help.

    (There are people in Freedland's article I'd have problems getting along with.)

    Putin denies Ukraine's self-determination (something that's part of UN's Charter in line with the human rights declaration). Rationale has been given, but activities, and lack thereof, seem to suggest other objectives?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    It's not their lives. Zelensky (and his government) decide how to proceed. Western governments decide in what way to assist. Ukrainian children die. They didn't get a say in the matter. If you think that's moral, that's your lookout, but I don't see how. I don't see anyone asking the Ukrainian children if they'd rather lose both parents and remain governed by Zelensky, or retain their family and be governed by a Putin puppet.Isaac

    Flirting with victim blaming?
    (Was about to type something about "bending over", but nevermind, we might be in mixed company.)
    That pragmatic approach is sort of understandable enough. Yet, don't forget that people have been (systematically) killed by the hands of empires that rolled in before. Poland (having taking over half the Ukrainian refugees in by the way) would be an appropriate example. (‡ below)
    Putin is to blame, unless he's mindless like the Black Death or something.
    Ukraine won't be joining NATO ← Putin's main demand met, and has been for a bit now.
    I guess a good 4 million has fled, and some are now returning, including children.


    Piotrowski's (2005) estimates of Polish World War 2 casualties:
    Poland’s population in 1939:
    ——————————————————————————————
    • Ethnic Poles:     22,700,000
    • Jews:              3,400,000
    • Other minorities:  9,000,000
    ——————————————————————————————
    =                   35,100,000
    
    Poland’s World War 2 population losses:
    ———————————————————————————————————————
    • Jewish:           3,100,000
    • Ethnic Poles:     2,000,000
    • Other minorities:   500,000
    ———————————————————————————————————————
    =                   5,600,000
    
    Included in these losses:
    ———————————————————————————————————————————
    • At German hands:                5,150,000
    • At Soviet hands:                  350,000
    • At Ukrainian Nationalist hands:   100,000
    ———————————————————————————————————————————
    =                                 5,600,000
    


    I'm vaguely reminded of ...

  • Ukraine Crisis
    I never said Ukrainians shouldn't be asked, did I? But when it comes to something that affects Russia, or any other country, then I think it is proper to ask the people of that country as well.

    I don't see why Ukraine should matter more than Russia who has a much larger population.
    Apollodorus

    Bombing affects Ukrainians.
    Ukraine won't be joining NATO (main demand met, and has been for some time now).


    By the way, I hear that some of the 4 million refugees are returning to Ukraine.

    Everyone there wants to come home.Oksana
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Kremlin's website has been on and off for a bit, maybe they're getting hit by hackers.
    Sure hope they don't cause any plane crashes.

    Russia’s Aviation Authority Switches Back to Pen and Paper After Huge Alleged Cyberattack (Apr 1, 2022)

  • Ukraine Crisis
    But according to NATO propaganda, it’s OK for the EU to rebuild and expand the Roman Empire, but not for Russia to resist EU expansion ….Apollodorus

    How about asking the Ukrainians? About Ukraine, you know, where they live (and are now bombed)? About what they want?
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Donald Trump Finally Admits Defeat: 'I Didn't Win the Election' (Newsweek; Apr 5, 2022)

    Took a while. Some of the Trumpists stick to the conspiracy theory, though.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    KremlinologistPunshhh

    Kremlinology is actually a word and a thing. How about that. :)

    (seems a bit close to criminology but nevermind)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    You do know there's a global socialist movement don't you?Isaac

    you should whip up a new thread, e.g. "The victims of capitalism", something like that

    Maybe this is your kind of thing?
    I'm thinking that differentiating socialism and communism is needed.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Seems like Russian forces are failing at combined arms ...



    ... and are instead leveling civilian targets only to be taken out by drones ...



    Bad, both because civilian targets are destroyed :fire: :death: (civilians killed, houses, McDonald's ruined), and because the Russian leaders send their troops in to become cannon fodder :death: (when they could be at home doing less destructive things and have a Vodka). Seeing someone blown to pieces is kind of disturbing either way.

    Rumors on the street will have it that the Ukrainian forces have been supplied with Switchblades, which might work well for them.

    Putin has gotten Russia into a bit of a quagmire, stubborn Ukrainians with guns, sanctions interrupting the economy, ... He may have the upper hand in a more strategic sense, but has apparently lost out more tactically per se.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    @StreetlightX, you should whip up a new thread, e.g. "The victims of capitalism", something like that.
    Could easily be both historical and ongoing.
    Pretty sure I could learn a thing or two anyway.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Should be clear enough that Russia has the military resources and location to do whatever here. They've already leveled a number of Ukrainian areas, including civilian/residential. In that respect, they're on the offense, invading, shelling, strategizing, sending people fleeing, doing whatever, certainly not particularly worried about Ukraine (or anyone) invading Russia.

    The Russian forces can retreat, resupply, regroup, add troops/weapons, re-attack (including bomb from afar), change objectives, more or less as they see fit, and keep doing that (indefinitely). We've already seen some of that.
    The Ukrainians can't, it's their homes, in this respect they're on the defense, a target that's stuck whether on the move or not, despite external aid. Their efforts would have to be quite effective to deter the Kremlin, let alone Putin's vision.

    Hence Russia has the upper hand kind of perpetually, unless something changes. Putin doesn't really have to go to meetings or comply with much, plus they have an impressive amount of nuclear ☢ weaponry to boast (and intimidate) with.
    I suppose their worries per se are sanctions, economy, and losing face, ...?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , just scanned the page you posted.

    the [lower-yield] US warheads were not a direct threat to Russian security but were concerning neverthelessRussia says alarmed by US deployment of low-yield nuclear missiles (Feb 6, 2020)

    Concerning for sure, but not as concerning as Russia having amassed up close to half the world's nuclear ☢ weaponry all by themselves (and threatened to use them), making Russia the top ☢-dog in the world. Plus violating other nations' airspaces + whatever. Talk about provoking and pushing others.

    Apart from China perhaps, North Korea is more or less everyone's concern.

    Putin held a ceremony at the Kremlin to welcome 23 new foreign ambassadors to MoscowRussia says alarmed by US deployment of low-yield nuclear missiles (Feb 6, 2020)

    More of this, please. And quit the bombing already. Ukraine won't be joining NATO anytime soon.

    Russia's security concerns have likely increased after going down the warpath ("special military operation", if you're in Russia, by mandate).

    I don't personally think that strongman :strong: Putin is losing it or paranoid as such, but we'll see how far he can push, provoke, oppress, silence, strong-arm, bully, bomb, invade, posture, threat, ... :fire: I kind of expect a fair bit.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Russia has violated other nations' airspaces on several occasions, and when their warplanes fly with transponders off they might jeopardize civilian traffic. Russia has accumulated up close to half the world's nuclear ☢ weaponry, and has postured readiness (threatened) to use them.

    Why don't European nations start building up nuclear arsenals to match Russia's? Oh wait, that'd be provocation. :D

    Some nations instead take an opportunity to exchange liquor.

    :strong: Putin → :down:
  • Ukraine Crisis
    In the US, some go all the way with this part ...

    especially of a biased or misleading nature, used to promote a political cause or point of viewBaden

  • Ukraine Crisis
    FYI: Maps: Tracking the Russian Invasion of Ukraine

    Rambling on from NATO membership, another of Putin's demands — Donetsk and Luhansk becoming two independent states — seems more contentious. In that respect, if that was to proceed, I'm thinking that all Ukrainians throughout be allowed to freely attain citizenship either way (and relocate when they can, without coercion obstruction reprisals threats or whatever, I mean). After all, they're the people on the ground here, not Londoners and Muscovites. Un/reasonable?

    On a related note, I think that some of the commenters (and I don't entirely absolve myself) tend to hold official Russian rhetoric to a standard of truthfulness, rationality and consistency to which it does not hold itself.SophistiCat

    I'm admittedly guilty.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    No NATO membership for Ukraine ✓ (main demand met and has been for some time now)

    Where's Putin?

    LVIV, Ukraine (AP) — For a month now, Russian forces have repeatedly attacked Ukrainian medical facilities [...] with at least 34 assaultsWar Crimes Watch: Russia's onslaught on Ukrainian hospitals (Mar 26, 2022)

    AP News is usually taken to be reliable. Declaring the report fake or the like would require something material.

    Yeah...not really...looking good.

    Meanwhile "We're open again!" :victory: :)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    I will welcome Russian tanks in my street if it avoids a nuclear war. Nothing, absolutely nothing, is worth a strategic nuclear escalation. Freedom be damned. I prefer to live and find the relative freedom possible even in the most autocratic regimes.

    Empires come and go. I'm not willing to die for one. I'm not willing to risk the lives of others for one.
    Benkei

    I can understand that pragmatic approach. Just have to remember that people have been (systematically) killed by the hands of empires that rolled in before. :( Quote spam ...


    variables:
    1. Putin doesn't use nukes, no escalation
    2. Putin uses nukes, no escalation
    3. Putin uses nukes, escalation
    Benkei

    4. Strike a deal, no escalation
    • no Ukraine NATO membership ✓ ← the main demand
    • ... (possibly UN peacekeepers) ...
    • Russia to clean up or pay for what they ruined (← incidentally, negative return on destructive investment)

    Is that sort of thing off the table already?
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The big question is, are Russians Europeans?FreeEmotion

    Why would that be a big question? :brow: It's not.

    , none, except maybe add a bit more context to 's grievances. (Is "Petty Petkov" a good nickname?)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Syrian and Ukrainian refugees...

    These[Ukrainians] are not the refugees we are used to...[Syrians] these people are Europeans. These people are intelligent, they are educated people...[Ukrainians] This is not the refugee wave we have been used to, people we were not sure about their identity, people with unclear pasts, who could have been even terrorists...[Syrians] In other words, there is not a single European country now which is afraid of the current wave of refugees.[Ukrainians]Bulgarian Prime Minister Kiril Petkov

    Disgusting. Petkov :down: :sad:.

    Not a whole lot sought refuge in Russia, by the way:

    Refugees of the Syrian civil war (Wikipedia)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Way back when, East Germans wanted to flee to West Germany, but weren't allowed to. West Germans didn't want to "flee" to East Germany, but were largely allowed to, as far as West Germany was concerned anyway.
    So, a sort of asymmetry or imbalance, if you will.
    With Gorbachev and the wall/curtain coming down, all that, there were concerts, busses of young people going to Russia for friendship (I know some personally), a sort of fresh optimism was going 'round, "enough with all the :vomit: posturing, let's party and be friends".

    If I were to have a vision for Russia, it might be a place where people wanted to go — no, not (necessarily) to escape Interpol. :) Say, with good accessible educational resources (for children, researchers), job and business opportunities, fair general safety and health support, reasonable freedom, increased trust, whatever, ... (came to mind while typing). But that seems different from Putin's vision for/of Russia, going by his actions at least. Authoritarianism, imposition, dreams of an empire, power, corruption, assassinations, ☢ posturing, stomping freedom, ... Not really a dream destination for a family.

    Someone should put together a Putin versus Gandhi game, maybe like a board game or something. :) However much I admire the staunch pacifism, I'm guessing Gandhi would be Putin's laughing stock. :fire:
    The Ukrainians aren't really pacifists (when invaded) as far as I can tell, despite faced by a heavy-duty ☢ ☣ :death: (and other arms) force.

    Anyway, I can't tell if Zelenskyy has a vision for Ukraine in the sense above. Could Ukraine become a place where people wanted to go? If Putin and his are caught in a geo-political-cultural thing, then what of the Ukrainians? They don't seem inclined to Gandhian pacifism, nor "Putinism", though many are Russian-speakers.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Was he just about to say "We're going to impose a New World Order", but slightly changed the phrasing?Apollodorus

    Why don't you tell? It's your theory.

    In any case, maybe it isn't Russia who's behind the NWO agenda, after all ....Apollodorus

    Tell what "the NWO agenda" is exactly.

    Actually, spamming this (already-spammed) thread might be too spammy. Though, I suppose, if you have something material, then do tell (in some thread).
  • Ukraine Crisis
    their NWO agendaApollodorus

    "New World Order"? If so, ye' can't be serious.

    Couple chucklesome quotes...

    Who do you think the establishment is? It's just guys like me. Their desks are bigger, but their jobs aren't. They don't conspire, they buy boats. — Quentin (Cube (1997))
    This may be hard for you to understand, but there is no conspiracy. Nobody is in charge. It, it's a headless blunder operating under the illusion of a master plan. Can you grasp that? — Worth (Cube (1997))
  • John Hick's Pluralism
    Well, W L Craig has ditched most of them (by far): How Can Jesus Be the Only Way? (Nov 19, 2019; 5m:19s)

    Religious Disagreement (IEP)
    Religious Diversity (Pluralism) (SEP)
    Philosophical Implications of Religious Pluralism (Vibha Chaturvedi; 2016)

    It seems like figurative speech or text reading is necessary

    pluralism (≈ disjunction) necessarily includes contradictions
    perennialism (≈ conjunction) necessarily shrinks to all-but nothing

    I guess some sort of non-specific deism, or "spiritualism", or whatever, might work (technically) in some way, but you're not going to get all the elaborate religions under one roof like so.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , I guess that put Voznesenks on the map, a town of some 34,050 mostly Russian-speakers.

    Battle of Voznesensk (Wikipedia)


    FYI, as of typing, Voznesenks' homepage takes me to a site in Japanese (sv1055·xserver·jp) entitled:
    鍵がないと気付いたらとるべき行動とは? (What action should I take if I realize I don't have the key?)
    “I lost my key ... what should I do ...” It is common to lose a key in everyday life.
    I was frustrated and panicked.
    First of all, it is important to take a deep breath.
    [...]
    :)
    Might be a rip off some other random sites.
    Apparently, voznesensk·org is run by GMO Internet in Tokyo.
  • Ukraine Crisis
    Saw an interview where Putin said the Soviet collapse was his defining moment. The interview took place at a school I think, and a young pupil asked him about the most important thing that happened.

    ... → KGB → Soviet collapse → Yeltsin → cozying up with oligarchs → ousting some oligarchs → ...

    Allan Little muses:

    Ukraine war: Putin has redrawn the world - but not the way he wanted (Mar 18, 2022)

    Ukraine's defenders are fighting for Helsinki. Putin has sent his troops in to impose a modern version of Yalta - which would kill off Ukraine's independence and leave it under Russian domination.paraphrasing Timothy Garton Ash
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The other week, Zelensky gave a pep talk and he winked. He winked.
    This is what we've come down to. Presidents in war-torn countries winking to their people in support.
    baker

    Hmm... I thought he'd been visiting hospitals or whatever, talking with UN/EU/US, making some efforts to talk with Putin, tweeting about a deepfake featuring him or something, ...
  • Ukraine Crisis
    , rt·com is run out of Moscow (you can call them at +7-4997500075, by the way).
    Not banned, not here at least.

    Over a thousand children died from completely preventable consequences of poverty just in the time since you posted that picture.Isaac

    Do you think that makes bombing the Saltivka residential district, killing Romanchenko, right?
    Putin's disrespect, like a loose cannon, contributes to the worry of the nuclear scenario and to resentment of Putin, as well it should.
    Great, what we need is another disrespecting, authoritarian top-bully with ☢ ☣ :death: :fire: and a Москва imperial vision, almost leisurely kicking others around.
    (This was sort of a "meaningless" comment, .)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The Onion Guide To NATO

    (just in case anyone didn't know)
  • Ukraine Crisis
    The West is censoring Russian media, banned outright RT on every medium, even their website on the "world wide web" ... yet the West isn't even under martial law? Why is the west so afraid of Russian state media? We let the BBC, and CBC and PBS to exist globally, why not little ol' RT? If the West supports Ukraine why the censorship of RT?boethius

    Russia Today (International) - Breaking news, shows, podcasts ← This RT?