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CoronavirusPeople are getting strokes from the covid vaccines, they are dying from the covid vaccines.
What do you have to offer to the survivors and their close ones? — baker
What about those killed by the virus ☣ and those saved by the vaccine?
Did you take those into account?
One could argue that withholding an effective vaccine would be a crime.
Recommended Vaccinations for birth through 6 years | Recommended Vaccines by Age (US CDC)
As mentioned (several times in this thread alone), fatalities from the vaccine itself are very rare. Blood clotting and allergies continue to be monitored. Other vaccines (medication at large) aren't magic cures either; we've known this stuff for ages. But, of course, all fatalities are tragic.
If you're to have a get-together with the virus, then (suffering or) dying from the virus is markedly more likely than from the vaccine, ... Then there are the social/communal aspects. We learn from the evidence/science, regardless of how it's put. -
CoronavirusBonus. Maybe even a bit of health gain in some cases. (y)
• Air pollution and COVID-19 (Dec 2020)
• How Covid gave the world a lesson in tackling air pollution (Apr 22, 2021) -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, the joy of watching your responses, being so anti-vax an'all. ;)
By the way, I typically argue for free speech, and the usual suppression accusations against YouTube are bound to come up. The sort of thing that may have led to sites like rumble·com. -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersYouTube to remove misinformation videos about all vaccines (Sep 29, 2021)
Elsewhere, someone posted a flurry of anti-whatever stuff, including this sample ...
Epidemic of heart attacks: Graphene Oxide and EMFs (rumble·com; Sep 20, 2021)
... which fronts ...
Epidemic of heart attacks: Graphene Oxide and EMFs (orwell·city; Sep 20, 2021)
... which refers to some elusive "biostatistician and researcher Ricardo Delgado" character. It goes on to tell a story about a magnetic compound in vaccines on which cell towers have a deadly effect, and an epidemic of such deaths no less. Whereas the Spanish news article (laprovincia·es) likely is true about a bicyclist having died from a heart attack, nothing else checks out. No independent verification, no corroboration, including other news articles, definitely no such epidemic, nothing. It all strands on elusive characters, creative story-telling, grand conspiracy theories, ...
Can Vaccines Make Our Body Magnetic? (Jun 11, 2021)
Fact Check-COVID-19 vaccines do not contain graphene oxide (Jul 23, 2021)
Graphene: 'Miracle material' singled out for Covid conspiracies (Oct 1, 2021)
When I called the poster out on it, they had nothing either (apart from the usual bullshit, personal attacks, hand-waving, all that, some of which we've seen here as well). Regardless, that was just one rumble·com page now anti-informing people out there. That's all it takes apparently.
So, maybe YouTube's move is for the better. -
CoronavirusAnyone know of a specific (medical/biological) term for asymptomatic pathogen ☣ factories?
(infectees that aren't harmed, or are insignificantly or very slowly harmed, and the pathogen unexpectedly remains and does its propagation thing, which typically harms the host, unless taken out by the immune system) -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersThis is now making the rounds again, being propagated and re-posted who knows where:
Nearly 50k Medicare patients died soon after getting COVID shot: whistleblower (Sep 28, 2021)
It's been investigated before ...
• Conspiracy theory claims Biden covered up 45,000 vaccine deaths (Jul 21, 2021)
• “45,000 confirmed dead from the COVID-19 shots within three days… and they’ve covered it up.” (Jul 22, 2021)
• Did 45K People Die Within 3 Days of Getting COVID Vaccine? (Jul 22, 2021)
• Fact check: There is no evidence 45,000 people died from vaccine-related complications (Sep 10, 2021)
... and, by the way, a record like this might warrant some caution: mediabiasfactcheck, adfontesmedia, wikipedia
The accusations are dead serious, but making them is cheap, especially with no independent verification and corroboration.
But, such likes matter little once the story (or just the headline) has made a sufficient number of readers afraid fearful anxious, or confirmed the biases of entrenched/incorrigible readers (who may dismiss investigators with a casual handwave and some yelling).
And so you have it, damage done, history ignored, lingering suspicions added to would-be deniers (and gullible fence-sitters), mission accomplished.
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CoronavirusI've come across a couple or so apparent outlier reports. Here's one:
Covid-19 in Wales: A third of positive cases are unvaccinated (Sep 24, 2021) -
CoronavirusI am saying that we are inescapably social and interdependent - we have to trust or die alone. Therefore we have to have a moral commitment to the truth, or die alone. I am saying that if we continue to valorise "rational self-interest" we will all die alone. — unenlightened
(y) That's also why starting out with or campaigning distrust and Us-versus-Them narratives can be degenerative. It's in the toolbox of divide-and-conquerors.
"The welfare of the people has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it gives the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience." - Albert Camus — Tzeentch
I guess democracies better choose their tyrants carefully, eh? :) Unless ... (more or less by definition) leaders are tyrants ...? -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, here doctors on the news reported the rare exemption request. News also reported fake vaccination certificates in the wild; they're not formalized hereabouts, but may now be I guess. What might a valid exemption be anyway? In what circumstances (e.g. for a nursing home caretaker)?
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Coronavirus, right, when rational means deductive. How much trust is deductive, though? I'm thinking trust is generally more weighted (subject to some contextual justification, pros and cons, etc).
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Coronavirus, you're not free to interact with others however you see fit.
(If you want to go on a killing spree, then please leave others out of it. If you want to drive drunk, then please stick to your backyard. ...) -
CoronavirusWhile discussing SARS-CoV-2/pandemic, ...
people first need to be in the clear about "the big existential issues" and have a definitive answer to the meaning of life question. — baker
... kind of reminded me of ...
If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe. — Sagan
:)
(nothing further to see here, move along) -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, check this post.
There are already situations where whatever vaccinations are mandatory and have been for some time. Like hospitals, nursing homes, kindergartens, schools, military, whatever. And there are situations where COVID-19 vaccines are being made mandatory, as per whatever current (scientific) recommendations. In some cases, frequent testing is accepted.
Similarly, standard protocols are implemented here and there, like restaurants, grocery stores, whatever. Commonsensical minor inconveniences — mask, distance, sanitize — yet has fools misbehaving.
Dragging all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculating them at gunpoint is a rather extraordinary measure beyond the above, one that you might expect would lead to violence (if the behavior we've seen from deniers thus far is an indication), might lead to secret cults hiding, who knows what. What if some of them are afraid fearful anxious, say, because of the long-running mis/dis/malinformation campaigns, or maybe just needle-phobic? Typically, health departments have some goal, like 80% immunized or whatever, but, maybe 100% will become the norm some time, depending on political thrust/will and scientific findings. -
CoronavirusA "high aim"? No, a most basic one. — baker
Sure, according to some anyway, but not particularly decidable/determinable like the medical matters are. I seem to remember posts/threads about this stuff here on the forums.
Truth trumps diversity. — baker
I meant this
There are historical/textbook case studies, and (cumulative) evidence, all that stuff, that we can learn from, we'd be fools not to — jorndoe
is relevant to
a functional society where all kinds of different people interact — jorndoe
Is the "meaning of life" thing (universally) truth-apt? This is the sort of thing where (some) people find whatever, and people have found whatever for centuries, and they all still haven't shown the one true "purpose of life". Unlike the tangible medical matters where we've learned lots, where nature has taught us and keep doing so.
This is supposed to be the whole point of life? — baker
Life is not a means to some (other) end.
Life is what you make of it, so make it a good one. — paraphrasing the good Doc Emmett Brown
If anything in particular, the "purpose of life" is living (it). Enjoy. :up:
"Back to the regularly scheduled program." ? :) -
Coronaviruspeople first need to be in the clear about "the big existential issues" and have a definitive answer to the meaning of life question. — baker
That's ... aiming rather high (unless I misunderstand, which is entirely possible).
There are historical/textbook case studies, and (cumulative) evidence, all that stuff, that we can learn from, we'd be fools not to.
Seems relevant for a functional society where all kinds of different people interact, yes? -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, it's easy to get pissed off with crap like this ...
• ‘So frustrating’: Doctors and nurses battle virus skeptics (Oct 8, 2020)
• Swedish officials report ‘escalated’ threats and hate in coronavirus debate (Feb 19, 2021)
• Joe Mercola: An antivaccine quack tycoon pivots effortlessly to profit from spreading COVID-19 misinformation (Jul 26, 2021)
• Parent rips face mask off teacher in confrontation at school, Texas district says (Aug 17, 2021)
• London transport staff warned of anti-mask posters with razor blades (Sep 9, 2021)
• A Teen Called For Masks In School After His Grandma Died Of COVID. Adults Mocked Him (Sep 10, 2021)
• UPDATE: Shock in Germany after cashier shot dead in Covid mask row (Sep 21, 2021) -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, same here. Though, over at the dentist they told me of a skirmish with a mask-denier at the grocery store. It's not like motorcycle racing up and down the isles was ever allowed.
"Our patience is wearing thin" (Sep 9, 2021) -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, most doctors have taken an oath I think. Nurses/medics etc aren't far off that. There are some related laws, like malpractice and negligence.
The verbiage of these sorts of things are often attempts at capturing ethics, though, technically, counter-examples can usually be found (yet another topic in ethics).
Anyway, despite cynicism there are drivers and concerns.
Say, if my neighbor was an anti-vaxxer, then that doesn't mean I'd like to see them suffer/die or rejected by the hospital. I might have a chat with them.
What does the right thing consist of anyway...?
SARS-CoV-2 should be left to replicate propagate mutate unchecked with no containment efforts, leaving whatever in its wake? — jorndoe
(n) ☣
Drag all unvaccinated off to a facility and inoculate them at gunpoint?
(n) (some have expressed things a bit in this direction)
Somewhere in between?
Treating others with dignity, trying to dispel fears, educating and keeping dis/mis/malinformation in check, ... (y) — jorndoe
The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile: — jorndoe
If rejecting "mainstream media" means turning to garbage, then it's neither smart nor doing the right thing. Wary of all the bullshit. :fire: Allow revising the outlook on the matter. (y)
• Persuasion, not coercion or incentivisation, is the best means of promoting COVID-19 vaccination (Jan 26, 2021)
• The vaccinated are angry. That's understandable but unproductive, health experts say (Aug 8, 2021)
• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021)
• To protect our kids from COVID-19, we have to be grown-ups (Aug 16, 2021) -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersResponding to something not asked, . Try again.
avoid listening to b.s — MondoR
Done. Now what?
Do your own research — MondoR
Done. What did "your own research" consist in exactly, that others should believe you? Anything like Robert Steele? What you've posted thus far? :snicker: -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersSo , in your opinion, SARS-CoV-2 should be left to replicate propagate mutate unchecked with no containment efforts, leaving whatever in its wake? If so, then how much of medicine would you ditch altogether anyway?
-
CoronavirusApropos
double standards — jorndoe
or hypocrisy ...
What I find especially disingenuous about the vaccine deniers is their arrogance at disbelieving immunology and other medical experts. Yet, if their child was sick or they themselves needed emergency medical treatment, how quickly would they do exactly what those same experts told them to do? — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersWhat I find especially disingenuous about the vaccine deniers is their arrogance at disbelieving immunology and other medical experts. Yet, if their child was sick or they themselves needed emergency medical treatment, how quickly would they do exactly what those same experts told them to do? — Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
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CoronavirusSeems rather uncharitable. Why would you do that? — Isaac
Spidey sense? But you're right, just assuming so was uncharitable. -
CoronavirusReading this, isn't there a chance that some traditional vaccine, followed later by an mRNA vaccine, could give extra immunity?
New Studies Find Evidence Of 'Superhuman' Immunity To COVID-19 In Some Individuals (Sep 7, 2021)
Haven't come across much on this line of research. Then again, the world is noisy. -
CoronavirusWuhan — MondoR
raising serious questions about their impartiality — Lancet scientists who trashed Covid leak theory 'have links to Wuhan lab'
What if we, for the sake of argument, replace that ↑ quote with something like "which gave them a unique insight into the lab"?
So, starting out with suggesting they're honest, whereas the article starts out with suggesting they're dishonest, sort of like "innocent until proven guilty" I suppose.
Don't know what those scientists have said ("impartiality"), but the Sun article is quite circumstantial, conducive to one-sided speculation, insufficient to draw any conclusions.
That said, of course the Wuhan lab leak theory remains on the table, just not with the added thrust you suggest . -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersA daily pill to treat Covid could be just months away, scientists say (Sep 24, 2021)
Maybe the anti-vaxxers would be more amenable to this sort of thing? -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers, I'd rather meet SARS-CoV-2 armed (i.e. vaccinated) than unarmed.
The unarmed has a higher risk of becoming a virus replication/propagation/mutation factory. ☣
And higher risk of long COVID-19, getting (seriously) sick, up to and including death. ☠
Seems foolish not to, and also remains the general recommendation of doctors and hospitals.
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Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-Earthers@Isaac, to be honest, these varying views can sometimes be illuminating in whichever ways, so in that respect feel free to keep it up. Of course there's also some threshold, readily exemplified by the flat-Earthers.
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Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersHa! That's brilliant. You're citing a study showing how radicals refuse to believe in the possibility of error as evidence that we should accept what our governments tell us without question. — Isaac
Nah, wasn't citing. In all honesty, I was copy/pasting. (My mistake, gave you something to latch onto, sorry.)
Some incorrigibility among anti-vaxxers has been seen. In some cases, even in their death beds at the hospital. Fortunately, some have also regretted their (deadly) ways, though their pleas seem to have swayed few. The anti-vaxxer machine and the sheeplets referring to it, keeps rolling.
I'm met with a wall of infantile simplicity, fixated on the utter truth of a single narrative. — Isaac
:grin: Hilarious. The righteous martyr eh? It's not quite a narrative as such. The evidence is the authority on the ground, tells the story. Maybe you're up for doing a comprehensive meta-study? Effectiveness, risks, that stuff? We could make bets on the outcome. Where would you place yours?
Some measure of common sense isn't to be scoffed at. The evidence is the authority here more so than some (unweighted) "he-said-she-said", the truth of the SARS-CoV-2/pandemic matter more so than some sort of radical cultural relativism. Would be kind of neat if the virus could just be argued away though. :smile: — jorndoe -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersAre you really so bromidic that you can't think of any other option than the system we have or witch doctors? — Isaac
:D I was inquiring about the genetic fallacy.
I think they'd be happier with a system guided more around the public good and less around private profiteering. — Isaac
You do eh? That's a rather unspecific/abstract, possibly overlapping, response. (Personally, I have no problem with paying taxes, if that's of any relevance.) Yet, I'm not convinced of your take. If I was to guess, it might more so be your own preference. Some incorrigibility among anti-vaxxers has been seen. Whether or not a vaccine is produced in this or that factory may not make much difference to those people. It's possible that closer involvement might make a difference, and that'd be moving into socializing type efforts. -
CoronavirusYou've heard of nuance! — Isaac
I have. So ...
I don't trust the pharmaceutical industry — Isaac
... wasn't a blanket statement? (Far from it, perhaps?)
Depends entirely on the circumstances, the severity of the disease in question, the urgency of the situation. — Isaac
Explicit examples have been given. -
CoronavirusDo they. I though only diabetics who don't take their meds die. I didn't realise a mental sate was so deadly. — Isaac
:roll:
Eli Lilly and Company, Novo Nordisk A/S, Sanofi S.A. = pharmaceutical industry, kind of big too.
I don't trust the pharmaceutical industry — Isaac
Say, how distrusting would you be if you caught meningitis and/or syphilis and/or rabies? And a kid (of yours)? (Consulting immediately with the family doctor / whoever at a local hospital, is realistic in our case, pharmaceuticals/vaccinations :gasp: might be involved.)
Are we still talking (blanket) "Big Pharma", Machiavellian profiteering, creating dependents, hoaxery, Nazi manipulation, lies by "them", creeping authoritarianism, or whatever, and a couple quotes that exposed some problems?
There's no magic SARS-CoV-2/pandemic cure. There is some number of responses that each can do theirs, and so we do, or responsible adults do anyway. Some are rather commonsensical (except to some incorrigible "skeptics" apparently). By now, there are a few reports weighing effectiveness versus risks, some (historical, textbook) case studies, whatever, and so we learn and act accordingly, we'd be fools not to.
Then there was that 3rd Japanese fellow (RIP):
Third person dies in Japan after taking contaminated Moderna coronavirus vaccine (Sep 8, 2021) -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersMistrust of the pharmaceutical industry and government scientists is among the top reasons for vaccine hesitancy. — Isaac
You sure they're converging on a genetic fallacy? You think they'd be happier with witchdoctors brewing things out in the woods? -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersFairly consistent North American findings:
COVID-19 Vaccine Breakthrough Cases: Data from the States (Jul 30, 2021)
Monitoring Incidence of COVID-19 Cases, Hospitalizations, and Deaths, by Vaccination Status — 13 U.S. Jurisdictions, April 4–July 17, 2021 (Sep 17, 2021)
Vaccinated make up minority of severe COVID-19 hospitalizations in Minnesota (Sep 22, 2021)
Mapping America’s hospitalization and vaccination divide (Sep 23, 2021)
Hospitalizations [Ontario] (Sep 24, 2021 - as of typing)
By now, denial seems a bit lame. -
CoronavirusI don't trust the pharmaceutical industry — Isaac
Bit hasty there? Distrusting diabetics die. :death: -
Anti-Vaxxers, Creationists, 9/11 Truthers, Climate Deniers, Flat-EarthersPathogens ☣ have been with us since, well, forever or something.
Questions that seem relevant here by now:
In the history of ☣ outbreaks, how %many were (ab)used for (enduring political) power grabs?
Might be easier to find some examples of some opportunistic profiteering here and there?
And downright evil examples of someone intently creating an ☣ outbreak to some Machiavellian (or worse) end?
What did in fact take place, what does history tell us?
Pertinently, what exactly would you expect or (realistically) want in case of an ☣ outbreak?
Evident/justified responses would carry far more weight than (wild or baseless) claims and conspiracy theories.
jorndoe
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