Just ignore the history of medicine — Ambrosia

That's pretty much what I haven't been doing.
But, seeing you're impervious to facts and oblivious of faults, what does it matter?

_{• Tuberculosis therapy: past, present and future (Jan 25, 2002)
• Typhoid Mary: Villain or Victim? (Oct 16, 2013)
• Treatment of Tuberculosis. A Historical Perspective (Oct 14, 2015)
• History of Vaccines - Government Regulation (Jan 17, 2018)
• History of 1918 Flu Pandemic (Mar 21, 2018)
• Cases of measles and deaths per 100000, per year, in the United States over the 20th century (Jul 26, 2019)
• Measles (Dec 5, 2019)
• The 1918 Spanish flu killed 8,000 people in Colorado, but Gunnison only had 2 cases. Here’s why (Mar 4, 2020)
• How Typhoid Mary left a trail of scandal and death (Apr 20, 2020)
• Pandemics Throughout History (Jan 15, 2021)
• Spanish flu: the virus that changed the world (Mar 2, 2021)
• How the COVID-19 vaccines were created so quickly - Kaitlyn Sadtler and Elizabeth Wayne (5m:7s) (Aug 17, 2021)
• Nebraska Department of Health and Human Services: In 1954, polio was a terrifying reality (Sep 14, 2021)
• Measles - Timeline (Sep 15, 2021)
• International Organizations, Vaccine Manufacturers Agree to Intensify Cooperation to Deliver COVID-19 Vaccines (Sep 16, 2021)
(not that it matters, my tracker has 228 entries as of typing)}

, as far as I recall, outlawing and attempting to "cure" homosexuality has mostly come from religion.

Not aware of the conflict inflation fallacy I see — here, here.
_{(maybe not faulty generalization, prejudice, poisoning the well, invincible ignorance (and incorrigibility), "I'm entitled to my opinion", either)}

And here we are, communicating almost instantaneously worldwide over the Internet using complex electronic devices, where diabetes is no longer a slow death sentence, navigating using the Global Positioning System, having all-but eradicated cholera, enjoying electricity and clean water in the house, reasonably working treatments of schizophrenia thus far, ... (y)

Medicine/science informs, ethics/morals decides, policies/politics implements. — jorndoe

Science is descriptive/propositional, morals are proscriptive/performative. Conflating them all is just bad discourse.

, I guess ebola (a germ) would be just another day out in the woods to you? :D
There is such a thing as ignorance gone dangerous and incorrigibility makes it worse. (n)
You just don't do me any favors ya' hear.

Well, , you've already admitted the flu, measles, and whatever. :D

@Ambrosia, you believe viruses but not germ theory...? :brow:

Don't know much about it, but apparently Landauer's principle puts forth a relation between information and thermodynamics, i.e. quantification.
Not sure this covers the different uses of the term "information", though. Or how solid the relation is.

Evidently, meeting SARS-CoV-2 armed, i.e. vaccinated, beats meeting the virus unarmed. (y)
The unarmed has a higher chance of becoming a virus replication/propagation/mutation factory affecting others. ☣
And higher risk of getting sick (up to and including death). :death:
Anyway, it seems there are some emerging efforts to find vaccine exemptions, whatever may come of that.

I'm interested in questioning if the experts are worthy of trust. — Yohan

I guess some are more so, some less so, to varying degrees, ... Either way, it's worthwhile differentiating them, what they say, what they point at, the usual.

, I was just pinching your apparently universal statement.

This whole covid crisis has long since stopped being about the virus or health, but about people seeking ways to feel good and to feel safe. — baker

Beg to differ. Not everyone sticks their head in the sand. (Assuming I didn't misread your comment, which is entirely possible.)

The world is made of rotting things. — baker

And some growing/flourishing things?

Thanks for only sharing this now. Could have saved mine and others time, I imagine. — Yohan

We can always abstract things into irrelevance, cutting some corners/particulars here and there. We still have to deal with the current outbreak.

By the way, ad verecundiam/populum isn't quite applicable here. The world (nature, evidence) is the authority here anyway, that's what subject matter experts point at.

, how many (real life) examples do we have? With no workarounds?

There is the problem of when attending school is mandatory and (some) vaccines are mandatory for attending school. (And, for that matter, I guess school can be where ignorance is dispelled in the first place.) What now?

I haven't heard of police dragging anti-vaxxers off to a facility and forcefully vaccinating them. Anyone? The likes of kindergartens, schools, hospitals, military, is where vaccination has been mandatory (or at least some vaccinations have), for some time. I suppose the unvaccinated don't qualify for some things (the blind don't qualify for driver's license, either).
Reasonable, whether imposing/"discriminatory" or not. (y)

Another dilemma related to anti-vaxxers is parents choosing for their children. I guess a common example is Jehovah's Witnesses denying blood transfusions. The situation has also been treated by various fictional accounts, e.g. a Babylon 5 episode called Believers (science fiction can sometimes defuse taboos). We have real life examples of criminal negligence where peers imposed whatever their religious faiths were on others, disregarding medicine, kind of bordering on murder in a way.
Irrational/ignorant, and a bit creepy. (n)

Medicine/science informs, ethics/morals decides, policies/politics implements. Presently, getting vaccinated comes out on top. While partaking in society do we not also have at least some social obligations? Seems responsible to take part in stomping the pandemic down.

Works for me, I've never gotten covid, and if I did and died oh well, at least I died a free man. — Derrick Huestis

Though not free of the virus (which took your freedom).

We’ve seen what happens when we give the state the power to make our medical decisions, [...] — NOS4A2

Right, fair control or all-but eradication of cholera measles meningitis smallpox ebola typhus ...

None of that matters to me. — NOS4A2

Well, who cares?

I might have mentioned Baffin Bay, Greenland, before. Sneak off to the great Bay, make a wholly independent living there, free of social life and other people, no one else to take into account except the occasional polar bear and perhaps an Inuit now and then. (y)

...

There are people having died due to their denial, and parents whose kids have died, all preventable. :death: [...] During the pandemic, there's a heightened chance of pathogen-encounters. ☣ [...] being socially responsible, not being a loose cannon [...] What about taking part in stomping the pandemic down? — jorndoe

@Cheshire @baker @Srap Tasmaner ...

If we disagree and you are wrong –> demonstrably wrong –> demonstrably dangerously wrong, then is it "fascist" to defend myself, with violence if needs be, against being subjected to the imminent danger/s which you (e.g. anti-vaxxers) advocate or present? — 180 Proof

(y) ("No", I mean :smile:)

London transport staff warned of anti-mask posters with razor blades (Sep 9, 2021) :o

People going to such lengths over masking up have more than just lost perspective (if they ever had any). Sure, they'd have to be way out extremists. I'd be somewhat reluctant to feed their fanaticism.

against demonstrably (dangerously) wrong ≠ fascism

, if you were hired to make deniers and conspiracy theorists look worse, then it might just be working. (y) Keep up the good work. ;)

We are all lumps of cells — Gregory

A lump of cells the size of a cherry ain't a person. My neighbor's kid is. — jorndoe

Well, if you can't differentiate ↑ then so be it. Others can.

Yes it is. — Gregory

Nah, it ain't.

A lump of cells the size of a cherry ain't a person. My neighbor's kid is.
Deciding what a person is (under the law, such a law), may be (somewhat) arbitrary, but not wholly arbitrary.

A couple months in, a fetus is a lump of cells about the size of a cherry, something like that, I think.

Because it grows into a formed person. The formation has started at conception. — Gregory

Sure, yet egg + sperm isn't a person.

Are you for saying that it's not a person before birth but is after? That's arbitrary. — Gregory

It's not a person a couple months in. That's not an arbitrary assessment. I guess various legislations set various timeframes, like 3 months or a bit more, after which abortion requires extraordinary conditions.

How's this? Males that don't express they want children get a reversible vasectomy or something to that effect?
Yes yes, there'd be more to work out about this, but before we even start putting it all on the females I want both parents sharing responsibility here, so it's just the humble beginning of taking such a path. Males don't get to paw it all off to females and decide for them.

Stop thinking of yourself as a good person. You’re not. Hardly anyone is. My own arrogance doesn’t even extend to that assumption about myself. — AJJ

...tf? :brow:

So there are some people here and there that could a bit of extra help, psychological in this case apparently. Numbers/reports/contexts?

You skipped ...

Presumably, you're not going to sue SARS-CoV-2? What about taking part in stomping the pandemic down?

There are people having died due to their denial, and parents whose kids have died, all preventable. :death:
Sometimes words might not make much difference.
At large, people just aren't (full-time or perhaps even half-time) rational, or at least evidently can't be expected to be.
Maybe some sort of more direct (or ongoing) participation (or similar exposure) would be more beneficial, who knows.

"You can make a difference by helping elderlies to and from the vaccine clinic"
"Please help us operate and document vaccine administration at the hospital"
"This week you have the opportunity of winning $2000 by getting the vaccine"

During the pandemic, there's a heightened chance of pathogen-encounters. ☣
I suppose you're entitled to choose infection for yourself (however weird that'd be, and not what others would want for you I'm sure), but you're not free to further increase chances of spread or putting others in danger thus.
Most/all are rather encouraged or obligated to decrease all that, and we have reasonable ways of going about it.
Doesn't have much to do with fear or panic or evil tyrant authoritarian government or conformism for conformism's sake or whatever bullshit; has to do with common sense, doing the right thing, being socially responsible, not being a loose cannon, and history is a fine teacher.
Presumably, you're not going to sue SARS-CoV-2? What about taking part in stomping the pandemic down?

When so-called civil liberties groups bend the knee to state power, it’s basically over — NOS4A2

... mostly for the virus? :)

COVID-19 isn't the first pandemic the world has faced — TheMadFool

(y) It seems though, that some don't learn from history.

There have been crazies all along for sure.
Some forms of vaccination were used a millennium ago in China, but it didn't really take off until much later, the 1800s then the 1900s in particular.
Religious and other anti-vaxxers have pretty much followed suit, as far as I can tell.

And politicians [...] have been working hard for decades to destroy people's trust in politics — baker

Voters empower politicians, hire politicians to do a job. Pick untrustworthy people to do a politician's job, and you've shot yourself in the foot. If this fellow once said 2 questionable things, and that fellow 22 questionable things, then it's easy to dismiss both equally without getting into what they said (+ context).

And [...] the medical establishment have been working hard for decades to destroy people's trust in [...] medicine — baker

Right, to an extent anyway. It's hardly a black-and-white thing. Antibiotics, insulin, antihistamines, covid-19 vaccines, etc, are (justifiably) trusted enough. Some are called out.
_{• Meet the guy behind the $750 AIDS drug (Sep 22, 2015)
• The rise and fall of Valeant Pharmaceuticals (Mar 14, 2017)
• Pharma CEO jacks drug price 400%, citing “moral requirement to make money” (Sep 11, 2018)
• These Senators Received The Biggest Checks From Pharma Companies Testifying Tuesday (Feb 26, 2019)
• Democrat Katie Porter accuses pharma CEO of inflating drug prices and 'lying' to patients and policymakers — all with the help of her whiteboard (May 18, 2021)}

Some would argue that (free) supply and demand capitalism can drive what works.
Maybe there's a question of how ethics fit into all that.
Are (more) campaigning/advertising/accountability rules then warranted?

, looks to me like explained.
Maybe it's just that a temporally/spatially "limited" world goes against our intuitions — the principle of sufficient reason.
Apply sufficient reason to everything/anything, and you'll get "something extra" (which is ampliative nonsense, since everything/anything already is all-inclusive), or you get a self-reference, or you delineate the principle (which I think may have my vote at the moment).
After all, the principle of sufficient reason is neither verifiable nor falsifiable (check Watkins' "all-and-some" statements), and since it's easily ampliative metaphysics, some care/suspicion is warranted.

Sorry , moved err copied the comment over (can't remove).

From a pre-print:

Massive randomized study is proof that surgical masks limit coronavirus spread, authors say (Sep 1, 2021)


You'll occasionally see someone not having their mask cover their nose, or otherwise not used quite right. I guess effectiveness depends on a few things, on some scale, not just (y) or (n). (No @frank this isn't derived from that report, just a general observation. :smile:)

Note, this from a pre-print:

Massive randomized study is proof that surgical masks limit coronavirus spread, authors say (Sep 1, 2021)

You'll occasionally see someone not having their mask cover their nose, or otherwise not used quite right. I guess effectiveness depends on a few things, on some scale, not just (y) or (n).

"The unborn" are a convenient group of people to advocate for. They never make demands of you; they are morally uncomplicated, unlike the incarcerated, addicted, or the chronically poor; they don't resent your condescension or complain that you are not politically correct; unlike widows, they don't ask you to question patriarchy; unlike orphans, they don't need money, education, or childcare; unlike aliens, they don't bring all that racial, cultural, and religious baggage that you dislike; they allow you to feel good about yourself without any work at creating or maintaining relationships; and when they are born, you can forget about them, because they cease to be unborn. It's almost as if, by being born, they have died to you. You can love the unborn and advocate for them without substantially challenging your own wealth, power, or privilege, without re-imagining social structures, apologizing, or making reparations to anyone. They are, in short, the perfect people to love if you want to claim you love Jesus but actually dislike people who breathe.

Prisoners? Immigrants? The sick? The poor? Widows? Orphans? All the groups that are specifically mentioned in the Bible? They all get thrown under the bus for the unborn. — Dave Barnhart (2018)

I have a feeling many females I know would look into moving if living in Texas.

From physicists (including Krauss) we might expect ...

◾ The Four Different Meanings Of 'Nothing' To A Scientist (Ethan Siegel; Forbes; May 1, 2020)

^{• a condition where the raw ingredients to create your "something" didn't exist
• nothingness is the void of empty space
• nothingness as the ideal lowest-energy state possible for spacetime
• nothingness only occurs when you remove the entire universe and the laws that govern it}

From (some) philosophers we might expect "nothingness" to express (exhaustive) absence of everything/anything (i.e. by negation), like the missing complement to existence, in some cases anyway. Oddly enough perhaps, this also implies absence of constraints, conservation (physics), etc. Not much to speak of it seems.

◾ Nothingness (Roy Sorensen; Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy; Aug 31, 2017)

More colloquially we might say something like "there's nothing in the drawer", meaning it's empty, ready to be filled. Different from the other uses.

The gospel of anonymous. ¹ Once upon a time there were wobbly relativistic quantum fields, and time was more spacelike. ² Asymptotically, a condition was reached whereby symmetry-breaking and positive expansion came to be. ³ And so the humble beginnings of our universe emerged from edge-free primordial nature.

The variety/ambiguity is best avoided I guess. So, what are talking here anyway?

, I guess practices vary.

Around here eligibility was/is advertised, by age way back when. You then sign up online/over phone, read/get instructions (allergies, symptoms, conditions, mask up, the usual), pick a free slot (location, 4m each). Arrive at location observing protocols (distance, the usual), show health card to get your slot (plus short questionnaire again, symptoms, whatever), stay at assigned spot until called, get called in (couple quick questions yet again), disinfectant, shot plus bandaid, told to wait in designated area for 15m (some nurses or whatever are around), leave. Go back online to where you signed up, print out receipt (registered vaccination(s)), also has known symptoms and whatever to look out for once again. Done, go on about your business.
I think that was about it for us, not really that much to it, like assembly lines. That's Atlantic Canada. Done similarly in Denmark.

Pathogens and outbreaks aren't exactly new. Life is lethal. Make the best of it, together.

One concern that's come up is back-to-school. Kids aren't eligible for vaccination.

What COVID-19 revealed about preventing pandemic influenza

That's some anyway.

Here's a quick shoot-out 21st Century solution. — Amity

This just scrolled by elsewhere ... :)

https://twitter.com/mmpadellan/status/1433416836960464898

@Isaac, scouring back over comments, I see you want to make a comparative argument — Harley Davidson, obesity, ... That's all fine, I suppose.

Meanwhile, we still have to deal with the damn pandemic.

The simple part is that more or less everyone wants the damn pandemic to be gone, to a reasonable extent, and so sensible people follow protocols to do theirs in whatever ways (mask, sanitize, distance, etc). Vaccinations are a great step forward. — jorndoe

The mutative nature of SARS-CoV-2 doesn't help. Rhetoric and influential celebrities dishing out poor/irresponsible/unqualified (pseudo)advice doesn't help. Inciting fear/panic doesn't help.
...
Vaccinations (and commonsensical precautions) do.


^{• Number of COVID-19 cases not as concerning as hospital admissions, says Dr. Nathanson (Sep 2, 2021)}

, that was how I read it, but may have to re-read, after a cup of coffee, some other day.

Says "in the same population", and 19.6M AstraZeneca + 9.5M Pfizer = 29.1M vaccinated, with 1.8M infected. I think. So, all 29.1M had 1 vaccination, and 1.8M out of those were infected, i.e. 27.3M uninfected. And then something in the range of 10 times more cases of clotting for the infected.

But it's not entirely clear. The paper says (in ever so many words) that there's an increased risk of clotting shortly after the 1st vaccination (albeit small) without clarifying what the comparison here is. I guess it's assumed the unvaccinated uninfected has no or insignificant cases of clotting. Or something.

There's a whole lot of stuff about the timing, which might be of some relevance as well.

In summary, infection ups chances of clotting noticeably.

1 Pfizer vaccination, female, 17 years old, oxygen drop, blood clot, various symptoms:

Welsh teen in hospital with Covid targeted online by anti-vaxxers (Aug 31, 2021)

(y)

By the way, some concerns about pregnancy have been raised. Don't know current status, can't keep up with it all, workday tomorrow.

Is exactly an answer to it — Isaac

Nay, just running with your narrative. (Sorry, not going repeat.)

Questionable humor? A grumpy ol' philosopher I know out Ohio way, that spends much time dishing out grades (correlates with grumpy?), posted this one... :)

That was my response. The 'deniers' are not a homogeneous legion so are not either guilty or not as one entity. — Isaac

Except it wasn't a response to the inquiry posed. (n)

Just FYI, I'm not likely to change topics in the middle of this topic (e.g. two wrongs don't make a right). You'll have to open a new post for that. (y)

Brief update on risks ...

Original paper: Risk of thrombocytopenia and thromboembolism after covid-19 vaccination and SARS-CoV-2 positive testing: self-controlled case series study (Aug 27, 2021)

News article: Blood clot risk greater after Covid infection than after vaccination (Aug 27, 2021)

not one homogeneous legion — Isaac

Right, and that wasn't claimed, except there are a few influential voices operating against ...

The simple part is that more or less everyone wants the damn pandemic to be gone, to a reasonable extent, and so sensible people follow protocols to do theirs in whatever ways (mask, sanitize, distance, etc). Vaccinations are a great step forward. — jorndoe

... hence asking ...

I suppose we might then ask who, if any, ain't doing theirs? Say, are deniers, contrarians, distrust-spreaders, dissidents, conspiracy theorists, etc, guilty in some sense? Failure to learn from history? — jorndoe

... which you failed to respond to for some reason.

Forgot to ask if you voted. Please do. (y)


_{• Psychosocial and demographic characteristics relating to vaccine attitudes in Australia (Aug 21, 2018)
• Naomi Oreskes: ‘Discrediting science is a political strategy’ (Aug 21, 2018)
• Religious affiliation and COVID-19-related mortality: a retrospective cohort study of prelockdown and postlockdown risks in England and Wales (Jan 6, 2021)
• How Capitalist Competition Hobbled the COVID-19 Vaccine Rollout (Jan 6, 2021)
• Which US demographics are more likely to refuse a COVID-19 vaccine? (Jan 11, 2021)
• Persuasion, not coercion or incentivisation, is the best means of promoting COVID-19 vaccination (Jan 26, 2021)
• Education is a bigger factor than race in desire for COVID-19 vaccine (Feb 25, 2021)
• Negative Affectivity, Authoritarianism, and Anxiety of Infection Explain Early Maladjusted Behavior During the COVID-19 Outbreak (Feb 25, 2021)
• COVID-19 vaccine hesitancy and resistance: Correlates in a nationally representative longitudinal survey of the Australian population (Mar 24, 2021)
• New Tool Tracks Vaccination and Vaccine Hesitancy Rates Across Geographies, Population Groups (Apr 14, 2021)
• COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy: Demographic Factors, Geographic Patterns, and Changes Over Time (May 19, 2021)
• Predictors of COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy: Socio-Demographics, Co-Morbidity, and Past Experience of Racial Discrimination (May 27, 2021)
• KFF COVID-19 Vaccine Monitor: Profile Of The Unvaccinated (Jun 11, 2021)
• SARS-CoV-2 Delta VOC in Scotland: demographics, risk of hospital admission, and vaccine effectiveness (Jun 14, 2021)
• Alberta's COVID-19 vaccination rates tied to levels of formal education, data shows (Jun 15, 2021)
• COVID-19 Vaccine Hesitancy in a Representative Education Sector Population in Qatar (Jun 18, 2021)
• Biden didn't "fall short" of July 4 vaccination goal — he was sabotaged by Republican trolls (Jul 6, 2021)
• EDITORIAL: Vaccine hesitancy cuts across many demographics (Jul 20, 2021)
• As White Evangelical Vaccine Refusal Reminds Us, Sometimes Religion is the Problem (Jul 29, 2021)
• Companies mulling charging unvaccinated employees more for health coverage: report (Aug 14, 2021)
• NBC News poll shows demographic breakdown of the vaccinated in the U.S. (Aug 24, 2021)}

The simple part is that more or less everyone wants the damn pandemic to be gone, to a reasonable extent, and so sensible people follow protocols to do theirs in whatever ways (mask, sanitize, distance, etc). Vaccinations are a great step forward. Mutations (and the pathogens continuing to find fertile grounds) make for a more bumpy road.

I suppose we might then ask who, if any, ain't doing theirs? Say, are deniers, contrarians, distrust-spreaders, dissidents, conspiracy theorists, etc, guilty in some sense? Failure to learn from history?

^{• Who are the anti-vaxxers? Here's what we know — and how they got there in the first place (Mar 27, 2019)
• After Truth: Disinformation and the Cost of Fake News (Mar 19, 2020)
• From students to politicians, many smart people have fallen for dangerous lies spread about the new coronavirus. Why? And how can you protect yourself from misinformation? (Apr 6, 2020)
• Study Finds More COVID-19 Cases Among Viewers Of Fox News Host Who Downplayed Pandemic (May 4, 2020)
• The Anti-Vaccine Movement in 2020 (May 22, 2020)
• The pandemic exposes human nature: 10 evolutionary insights (Jun 9, 2020)
• The Masks Masquerade (Jun 14, 2020)
• Mistrust of the medical profession and higher disgust sensitivity predict parental vaccine hesitancy (Sep 2, 2020)
• Many COVID-19 patients insist ‘it’s not real’ until they die, nurse says (Nov 17, 2020)
• 15 Infuriating Stories About Doctors Who Had To Diagnose A COVID-19 Denier With The Coronavirus (Apr 21, 2021)
• States with low vaccination numbers had Covid-19 case rates last week 3 times higher than others where people are fully vaccinated (Jul 12, 2021)
• The YouTubers who blew the whistle on an anti-vax plot (Jul 25, 2021)
• White Evangelicals Resist Covid-19 Vaccine Most Among Religious Groups (Jul 28, 2021)
• Ben Shapiro’s Advice for Resisting America’s ‘Authoritarian Moment’ (Aug 2, 2021)
• CNN tracked down a super-spreader of Covid-19 misinformation. See how he reacted (Aug 5, 2021)
• Unvaccinated adults driving COVID-19 case increase in Canada (Aug 10, 2021)
• This Woman Secretly Runs One of the World's Biggest Anti-Vax Websites From Her House (Aug 12, 2021)
• Why the Church Keeps Getting Covid Wrong (Aug 16, 2021)
• Parent rips face mask off teacher in confrontation at school, Texas district says (Aug 17, 2021)
• Covid-19: Lockdown not enough to stop Australia’s delta variant crisis (Aug 17, 2021)
• Anti-Vaxxers Go Off the Rails at San Diego County Meeting: ‘Heil Fauci’ (Aug 17, 2021)
• An Alabama doctor watched patients reject the coronavirus vaccine. Now he’s refusing to treat them. (Aug 18, 2021)
• The FDA Is Begging You Not to Take Horse Dewormer for Covid-19 (Aug 21, 2021)
• Almost 5,000 Covid cases linked to Cornish music and surf festival (Aug 23, 2021)}