I guess no one wanted to take up Hanover's comment?

Yes, that's something of the idea. — Leontiskos

The perennialists sometimes bring up the parable of the blind men and an elephant.
Might be better suited for pluralism.
A conjunction of religious faiths does not leave much behind anyway.

Did Trump accomplish something...?

U.S. secures strategic transit corridor in Armenia-Azerbaijan peace deal (— Steve Holland, Ross Colvin, Lincoln Feast · Reuters · 2025 Aug 7)

Naturally, it's to be called "The Trump Route". :D

Maybe Gamaleya will get foreign investors:

Cancer cure? Russia commences human trials of revolutionary personalized cancer vaccine (— The Economic Times · Aug 2, 2025)

RFK Jr. announces end to some mRNA contracts, including for flu, covid (— The Washington Post · Aug 6, 2025)

Did Moscow get hit by a heatwave or something?

The children of Severomorsk are told that neighbouring Nordic countries support Nazism
^{— The Barents Observer · 2025 Apr 15}

Moscow threatens to DESTROY Europe: nuclear blackmail, calls for war, and strikes on NATO
^{— UATV English · 2025 Aug 6 · 9m:18s}


We want Ukraine, as a state, to cease to exist [...]
^{— Bezpalko Bogdan Anatolievich via Visioner · 2025 Aug 7 · 1m:57s}

Seems clear that all this...stuff is for a domestic audience.

The Cathars believed that Jesus was pure spirit, not a physical human. But, they were run over, so their faith was largely stomped out.

, I just meant that where a mystery is accompanied by contradiction, you can derive anything; that's the principle of explosion.

, watch out for explosions.

sets are ultimately impossible — Fire Ologist

They're not.
(I'm assuming you're referring to naïve set theories.)
There are axiomatics that are free from the paradox you suggest.
I'm not sure I'd call it a mystery as such. :)

Apparently still going strong. Can be done in the right circumstances.

The world’s first solar-powered train in Australia (— Bridgestone Corporation · Jun 2019)
Discover World-First Solar Train in Byron Bay (— Elements of Byron · Apr 2023)
Byron Bay solar powered train (— Clean Energy Regulator, Australian Government · Sep 2024)

, this story? :D

Trump orders termination of labor statistics official after jobs report and downward revisions (— Fox · 2025 Aug 1)
Trump removes official overseeing jobs data after dismal employment report (— AP · 2025 Aug 1)
WATCH: ‘I think their numbers were wrong,’ Trump says after firing BLS head over jobs report (— PBS · 2025 Aug 2)
Trump defends firing labor statistics chief after weak jobs report (— The Hill · 2025 Aug 3)

I guess the numbers for the next few years will be Trumpified, unreliable/untrustworthy.

, agaigain: an effect they can have is you (mis)understanding them.
(and, beforehand, light, sound, or something, whichever doesn't matter much, also has an effect on you)

@NOS4A2, how do (or might) you learn new stuff and correct mistakes? "Move! Car!" never has any effect on you? — What did you make of it, if anything?

If you "take a cue from the environment", then it's already had an effect on you.

The claim still isn't that words/sentences are the cause, but rather that they can have an effect.
(responding to something else suggests misunderstanding)
Generalizing and objecting to that instead misses the point.

As an aside, would the big bang count as a cause in your book?

(still not seeing much to "set this out and how it's contrary to the above")

This is fun. — AmadeusD

:grin:

@NOS4A2, how do (or might) you learn new stuff and correct mistakes? "Move! Car!" never has any effect on you? (still not seeing much to "set this out and how it's contrary to the above")

in regards to Gaza and Ukraine — Mikie

Here's a poster. I'd include Hamas.

, I don't think it's a concluded story. I guess we'll see.

New EU Russia curbs may bolster Indian oil refiners' reliance on traders
^{— Nidhi Verma, Mohi Narayan, Trixie Sher Li Yap, Florence Tan, Tony Munroe, Jan Harvey · Reuters · Jul 21, 2025}

Exclusive: Indian state refiners pause Russian oil purchases, sources say
^{— Nidhi Verma, Philippa Fletcher · Reuters · Jul 31, 2025}

Besides, Europe pretending "business as usual" sends the wrong message.

, I'm not seeing much to "set this out and how it's contrary to the above".

Anyway, you read (hear, feel) the sentences by light (sound, touch), which is one effect. You may then understand or misunderstand them, which is another effect. From there on, you may or may not act accordingly; it's not that you're necessarily compelled to subsequently act in a particular way (though some may be compelled to panic in some cases). "Move! Car!" Either way, they've already had an effect on you; otherwise, it's doubtful we'd be language users. Nothing new or controversial here; over and out unless something comes up.

, it seems like something is going on, but it's not clear what ...

Pam Bondi ends FBI effort to combat foreign influence in U.S. politics (— NBC · Feb 6, 2025)

Trump administration retreats in fight against Russian cyber threats (— Guardian · Mar 1, 2025)

Carlos Giménez (Homeland Security committee member) said on Mar 3, 2025, that he didn't know why Hegseth ended these cyber efforts.

Weird. Trump's people have lost sufficient credibility that they'd need clear evidence by now. I wouldn't underestimate incompetence in the Trump regime, though. I wouldn't let it distract from the Epstein case, either. Meanwhile, the Scots kind of "welcomed" Trump. :)

Well, she's not holding back, and also comments on ABC, Zuckerberg, WSJ:

Elizabeth Warren on Colbert ‘Late Show’ Cancellation: Is the Paramount Trump Payoff a Bribe?
^{— Elizabeth Warren · Variety · Jul 23, 2025}

:D

Scottish newspaper headline about Trump visit referred to him as 'convicted US felon'? (...)
^{— Cindy Shan · Snopes · Jul 25, 2025}

Some oil trade have changed over the past three years:

How the Largest Importers of Russian Fossil Fuels Have Changed (2022 vs. 2025)
^{— Bruno Venditti, Sam Parker · Visual Capitalist · Apr 1, 2025}

Some select quotes to spice things up... :)

The election campaign is over. To achieve success in the election, Donald Trump relied on certain forces to which he has corresponding obligations. As a responsible person, he will be obliged to fulfill them. — Patrushev · TASS · Nov 11, 2024

They respect me. Let me tell you, Putin went through a hell of a lot with me. He went through a phony witch hunt where they used him and Russia, Russia, Russia. — Trump · UCSB · Feb 28, 2025

The new (U.S.) administration is rapidly changing all foreign policy configurations. This largely coincides with our vision. — Peskov · zarubinreporter via max seddon · Mar 2, 2025 · 1m:52s

Putin 'speaks to me, nobody else' after G8 expulsion, Trump says — NBC · Jun 16, 2025 · 30s

Burney plain-opines:

Derek Burney: Disillusioned Trump tries to talk tough on Ukraine
^{— Derek H Burney · National Post · Jul 23, 2025}

Muscovites opine:

Mixed reactions in Russia after Trump comments on military aid for Ukraine
^{— AP Archive · Jul 19, 2025 · 47s}



I'll just echo Kallas: too much babble and delaying while Ukraine is bombed daily. I guess they're used to getting sh¦t all over by now.

We write/read speak/hear words/sentences.
All part of our social practices, like this comment to you (the reader).
Such socializing can go via light (to eyes), touch, soundwaves (to ears), doesn't matter much which, and the reader/listener may (mis)understand, presumably with an awareness of some writer/speaker, at which point the words/sentences have already had an effect.
Without the writer/speaker and their words/sentences, it wouldn't have happened.

It’s the other way about. We affect words. — NOS4A2

You'll have to set this out and how it's contrary to the above.

Anyway, there isn't anything new in the above; maybe there's nothing more to come after.

There are some with concern for their fellow beings, raising pointed issues, being associated with or being called woke, or maybe self-labelling so.
Would women's suffrage activists have been called woke back in the day? Who knows. Anti-segregationists?

There are conservative reactionaries raising radical examples and denouncing them as woke.
After having yelled from the rooftops for some time, they've stigmatized the word for their purposes.

Wake up sheeple! — woke person?

The outrage. :fire: :D

Apparently, anti-vaxxers have been making noise about these:

Cohort study of cardiovascular safety of different COVID-19 vaccination doses among 46 million adults in England (article)
^{— Samantha Ip, Teri-Louise North, Fatemeh Torabi et al · Nature Communications · 2024 Jul 31}

Lower risk of dementia with AS01-adjuvanted vaccination against shingles and respiratory syncytial virus infections (article)
^{— Maxime Taquet, John A Todd, Paul J Harrison · npj Vaccines, Nature briefs · 2025 Jun 25}

But the higher point is the methodological one made above, that theology consists in justifying a given series of doctrines, not in their critique.

It starts with the conclusion and works through to the explanation, unable to reach an alternate conclusion. — Banno

Theology starts with a conclusion, and seeks to explain how it fits in with how things are. It seeks to make a given doctrine consistent. — Banno

Right, akin to invention rather than discovery, assumption rather than learning.

[...]

Then you should be able to [...] — NOS4A2

Then it should be easy to demonstrate. Use your words to change my mind. — NOS4A2

How so? You might be incorrigible, for example.

Either way, once you've (mis)understood words/sentences that you read or heard, then they've already had an effect.

God didn't tell you to murder. He asked you to commit a justifiable killing. — Hanover

Is it just because God says so, or does God say so because it is just? :)

How does a story that makes no sense survive that long? — frank

Because we're neurotic apes and just part-time rational? Evidently, the elasticity/plasticity of our mental/cognitive lives establishes in such a way that we may be taught, believe, or defend (tooth and nail) false dogmas and fictional stories. Incoherence and incorrigibility make irrational bedfellows in our heads.

Or is Christianity a special case? — frank

Heck no. :)

Seems clear enough that Trump is eroding credibility/trust that will impact Americans in the future.

In Latest Attack on Media, Trump Sues Wall Street Journal Over Epstein Report (— Jessica Corbett · Common Dreams · Jul 18, 2025)

The baby-rants are part of the circus.

Who stands to benefit?

I'm guessing the US is a couple of Trump'ers shorter. Russia is a cannon-fodder richer.

American Joins Russian Army For Citizenship, Gets A Big Surprise Instead
^{— Ed Scarce · Crooks and Liars · Jul 15, 2025}

Specifically, DeAnna referenced LGBT material being taught to their children in schools as motivation for moving out of the US.

American Father and Vlogger Tricked Into Front Line Combat by Russia
^{— Nick Pehlman · Kyiv Post · Jul 15, 2025}

Unfortunately, he feels like he is being thrown to the wolves right now, and he is kind of having to lean on faith. — DeAnna Huffman

Importing North Korean soldiers, sending non-soldiers to war, ..., maybe they are running low.

Trying the logic again...

How about you persuade me that the universe revolves around the earth? — NOS4A2

Suppose that @Michael persuaded you thereof, then what would that show?
That words can persuade, sometimes they do, not that they always do.

Suppose that @Michael didn't persuade you thereof, then what would that show?
That words sometimes don't persuade, they don't always, not that they never do.

Are you looking for any of those implications perchance...?
It seems like you instead demand proof that there are words that will persuade you of whatever.

By the way, what'd you make of my comment yesterday (if anything)?

A farce:

BREAKING NEWS: Trump Asked Point Blank If Bondi Told Him His Name Appears In Epstein Files
^{— Forbes Breaking News · Jul 15, 2025 · 1m:29s}

Exclusive: NIH suspends dozens of pathogen studies over ‘gain-of-function’ concerns
^{— Jon Cohen, Jocelyn Kaiser · ScienceInsider, Science/AAAS · Jul 11, 2025}

If we won't learn, we deserve what's comin', right? :)

Back to the Future: Lessons Learned From the 1918 Influenza Pandemic
^{— Kirsty R Short, Katherine Kedzierska, Carolien E van de Sandt · Frontiers in Cellular and Infection Microbiology · Sep 10, 2018}

Vague, unsupported, low quality arm waving. — T Clark

Odd. That ↑ comment looked like a (low-quality) hand-wave to me. :wink:

, one must hear/read the words from someone before one can (mis)understand them, yes?

FYI, contours of NATO polls in Ukraine by various sources:



Some related events in rough chronological order:

Budapest Memorandum: signed 1994 Dec 5 — violated 2014 Feb
Euromaidan: 2013 Nov 21 — 2014 Feb 22
Revolution of Dignity: 2014 Feb 18 — 2014 Feb 23
Little green men incursion: 2014 Feb
Russo-Ukrainian War: 2014 Feb —
Russian occupation of Crimea: 2014 Feb 27 —
Russian annexation of Crimea: 2014 Mar 18
Donbas War: 2014 Apr 12 — 2022 Feb 24
Ukrainian parliamentary election interference: 2014 Oct
Russia demands NATO roll back from East Europe and stay out of Ukraine: 2021 Dec 17
Special military operation: 2022 Feb 24 —

The Kremlin has been exemplary in giving Ukraine incentive to keep seeking NATO membership, however unlikely in the foreseeable future.

But you refuse to say what would falsify it. — NOS4A2

... because what you ask is illogical.

verified an existential claim — there is persuasion etc by words — which you then requested to falsify.

In general, the logic is more or less... Existential claims are verifiable and not falsifiable. Universal claims are falsifiable and not verifiable. Persuasion by words exists — a verified existential claim. All swans are white — a falsified universal claim.

On another note, did my word-effect reasoning work?

Three different, short accounts:

Two foreigners detained for displaying Nazi symbols in Pechersk, Kyiv, - police. PHOTOS — Olena Gulayeva · Censor.NET · Jul 8, 2025
^{Police detained two foreigners for demonstrating Nazi symbols in the capital's Pechersk district.}

Public display of Nazi symbols in Kyiv: police detained two men — Yevhen Ustimenko · UNN · Jul 8 2025
^{In Kyiv, police detained two foreigners, aged 25 and 27, for publicly displaying Nazi symbols.}

Two foreigners walked through the streets of Kiev with Nazi symbols — EADaily · Jul 9, 2025
^{In Kiev, two citizens were detained who walked through the capital of Ukraine with Nazi symbols — one of them was holding a flag with a swastika, the other was wearing a T-shirt with the banned Nazi emblem.}

Why would they parade a Ukrainian flag with unmistakable Nazi symbols on it?

How to deal with military buildups?

The threat of Russia's force in Ukraine
^{— Sava Jankovic, Volker Roeben · Journal on the Use of Force and International Law · Oct 23, 2024}

We have examples of both hostile buildups and otherwise. The Russian buildup starting in 2021 near Ukraine was preparation for the all-out 2022 invasion (main topic of the article). The Feb 2022 Belarusian buildup was a Russia-Belarus military exercise, and not itself directly offensive. The NATO buildup in Lithuania, Jul 2023, was a summit. ... Hostile intent was denied for the three examples (2021 was a lie).

non-routine, suspiciously timed, scaled up, intensified, geographically proximate, staged in the exact mode of a potential military clash, and easily attributable to a foreign policy message, the hostile intent is considered present and the demonstration of force manifest

The most problematic aspect remains the reaction to military threats, which may depend on the determination of a threat and its (un)lawfulness, geopolitical considerations, and the overall position one takes on threats.

Besides, anyone can claim defensive measures are provocations (if not offenses). Anyway, the international community failed Ukraine in 2014.

Another one bites the dust. Your mileage may vary on some of the content:

Inside the far-left media that, backed by Moscow, Damascus, and Tehran, attacks Israel
^{— Nicholas Potter · Jerusalem Post · Dec 12, 2024}
Germany says Russia using media platform Red to sow discontent
^{— Rachel More, Miranda Murray, Madeline Chambers · Reuters · Jul 2, 2025}
German authorities: Russia supported Islamist portal in Berlin (in Russian)
^{— Nikita Oshuev · Deutsche Welle · Jul 9, 2025}

Seems inconsistent for the Kremlin to operate against Israel bombing Gaza, while at the same time bombing Ukraine, but their aims are of a different nature, not about bombed victims.

An article regarding some history for the so inclined:

A Piece of Theater: West German–Arab–Israeli Relations Staged by Intelligence Services, 1955–1967
^{— Tilman Lüdke · International Journal of Intelligence and CounterIntelligence · Jun 4, 2025}

, does this stuff work?

1. a person can (often enough) understand words from another person
2. understanding another person's words is an effect
3. words can (often enough) have an effect

1. a person can misunderstand words from another person
2. misunderstanding another person's words is an effect
3. words can have an effect

, something's off here. By offering these wordy arguments, are you trying to show that words can't convince?

The only alternative is the intervention of a large scale international peace keeping force. But the international community is not stepping forward. — Punshhh

As far as I can tell, neither the Palestinians nor the Israelis want something like a UN peacekeeping force. :/ Palestinians give reasons like dignity or whatever, and, apparently, the Israelis just don't want any interference. Meanwhile, Hamas extremists roam, and Netanyahu levels Gaza more or less indiscriminately (which is also extreme), ... Dampening and observing peacekeepers would be great, though, but maybe that's just me.