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Was intelligence in the universe pre-existing?, mindless intelligence-free doesn't go well with the common use of the word "God". :shrug:
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Was intelligence in the universe pre-existing?, with no minds "outside of time", can we speak of intelligence "outside of time"?
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Why should we worry about misinformation?
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Why should we worry about misinformation?The truth does not require your participation in order to exist. Bullshit does! — Terence McKenna
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Why should we worry about misinformation?, what's taken to be true is important in decision-making. Pollution doesn't help.
Think you can get on without? Can deduce it all from something else? Exclusively trust yourself? — Sep 22, 2024
So we worry about the believers in misinformation. — NOS4A2
I'd say worry about both, dis/mal/misinformation being wrong in the first place.
"Ye shan't believe dis/mal/misinformation" won't work, whether edged into lawbooks or not. :D
Sure, you might argue whichever way I suppose. Extremes for the occasion: people should be entirely free to spread dis/mal/misinformation; people spreading dis/mal/misinformation should be guillotined.
we strike a balance of sorts between freedom and disincentive — Sep 22, 2024 -
Was intelligence in the universe pre-existing?, you skirted the characterizations (older + above), but, no matter, by acknowledging that mind is temporal we're on the same page.
"eternal" in classical theism means "outside of time" — Metaphysician Undercover
Returning to intelligently intelligent intelligence intelligencing ...
Where does intelligence fit in? — Sep 22, 2024 -
Why should we worry about misinformation?If I read the phrase “the earth is flat” one-hundred times, and after I’m done tell you the earth is in fact not flat, will that suffice as a demonstration? — NOS4A2
That's just a counter-example to a universal statement like "all speech acts are taken to be true by everyone".
Similarly, "no utterings are taken seriously by anyone" is also false.
Rather, as has been argued a few times, some talk is believed by some. It's common, daily.
I'd take it to be true if you claimed to be a globe-Earth'er (though your personal belief isn't all that consequential in this context). -
Why should we worry about misinformation?Claiming to not care about dis/mal/mis/information is kind of silly.
Think you can get on without? Can deduce it all from something else? Exclusively trust yourself?
There are whatever varieties and degrees; we might assess some by intent and consequences when taken seriously.
So, we strike a balance of sorts between freedom and disincentive. -
Was intelligence in the universe pre-existing?, I'm thinking no — as the common abstract or grammar rule, though not in intuitionism. Then again, is there any excluded middle in absence of any talk to apply it to? (Identity, instead, is presupposed by meaning; maybe identity is where ontology and logic meet.)
, the point was that mind is temporal/process-like, come and go, occurs, is interruptible, has a more clear temporal demarcation than spatial, ... Where does intelligence fit in? -
Was intelligence in the universe pre-existing?, to give an account of time you have to account for when (simultaneity) and how long (duration) alike: Nov 11, 2022 (way old comment)
• Say, my supper is spatial/object-like, locatable, movable, breakable, my experiences thereof occur, are interruptible ⁽¹⁾⁽²⁾, temporal/process-like. Say, stomachs are spatial/object-like, left to right, front to back, and digestion (say, starting with chewing and salivating) occurs, comes and goes, temporal/process-like.
• Rocks and bodies are spatial/object-like: left to right, top to bottom, front to back, movable, locatable, breakable (under conservation ⁽³⁾), ... Eddies/currents and minds/experiences are temporal/process-like: come and go, occur, interruptible ⁽⁴⁾⁽⁵⁾ (interaction/event-causation), ...
Mind isn't in atemporal's vocabulary. If you're talking atemporal, then you're not talking sentience; if you're talking sentience, then you're not talking atemporal. Isn't intelligence something that mind can do (or possess, be capable of)? -
Why should we worry about misinformation?Shouting fire in a crowded theater (falsely)
Some typical responses at the edges:
If people panic and some are trampled to death, then the tramplers are at fault, not the inciter.
If the inciter aimed to cause panic, then they're at fault, possibly a sociopath.
You could argue either, right?
Presumably, legislation would follow ethics.
As usual, we have whatever examples, and a simple universal decision/rule is suspect. -
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)Right-wing influencers were duped to work for covert Russian operation, US says
— Alan Suderman, Ali Swenson, Garance Burke, Rhonda Shafner · AP · Sep 5, 2024
Russia focusing on American social media stars to covertly influence votersHow much influence do such campaigns have anyway? — Sep 8, 2024
— Christopher Bing, Katie Paul, Raphael Satter · Reuters · Sep 9, 2024
Blinken accuses RT of being worldwide Kremlin intelligence network
— Andrew Roth · Guardian · Sep 13, 2024
McClown's lying has caught on — Sep 17, 2024
Altogether, some US commentators/voters are adding their efforts to efforts beyond their neighborhood against themselves, it works to some measurable extent. The resourcefulness and organization of the Kremlin's machinery remains impressive in this respect. The possibility of such influences is inherent in relatively open/free societies, while others just thoroughly outlaw them. -
Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here), looks like a red scare move/redux by lying.
Actually, just seen elsewhere, I quote (verbatim):
Harris is the child of a Marxist. Have checked out her dad’s book? She is a Marxist. — Sep 16, 2024
So, McClown's lying has caught on. -
Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)McClown is calling Harris "Marxist" "Communist" whatever, which is just more lying, but I'm sure it'll catch on somewhere.
As far as I can tell, Swift has supported worthwhile projects and given/donated substantially more to charities/goodwill than McClown; happy to be proven wrong.
I sure hope McClown's supporters are upfront with the kids of the US about who they're supporting, especially the Evangelicals and conservative Christians. -
To what jazz, classical, or folk music are you listening?Norwegian morning music while enjoying the quietude of dawn (coffee recommended)
Peer Gynt by Grieg
The whole thing is a bit longer than the morning music -
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)Former CBC host Carol Off wants to take the word 'freedom' back from the far right (— Sheena Goodyear, Kate Swoger · CBC · Sep 3, 2024)
Why do they lie? (— Carol Off · Human Rights Hub @ Instagram · Sep 13, 2024)
We've probably all heard it, "But they all lie", hence the worst can keep getting away with it.
Random paraphrases of the day...
To a hammer everything is a nail.
To a radical much else is a radical problem.
Choosing the right battles matter. -
Chinese Cars:up:
The unknown Tank Man and Tiananmen 1989 are a few decades behind us now; the Chinese regime isn't though. -
Chinese Cars, it goes further than so. There are matters like the Uyghurs. By putting state resources behind ordinary capitalist competition they can override/subvert typical market rules (e.g. Huawei). China is lacking democratic (transparency/rights/freedom) standards. There's a case to be made.
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Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Banka war crime apologist — Benkei
@BitconnectCarlos will just call you names as well, and so it goes ... (repeat ↵). And that's part of the problem. Old. :shrug: -
Ukraine CrisisSo why the hell did Russia invade? — Echarmion
Started with an uncompromising decision in the Kremlin circle some time ago.
Probably not an overnight thing, but ended up an easy enough sell (among some folks).
:shrug: -
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)Conspiracy theorists claim that "They" are looking for destruction, referencing:
The strategy aims to utilize "militant anti poverty groups" to facilitate a "political crisis" by overloading the welfare system via an increase in welfare claims, forcing the creation of a system of guaranteed minimum income and "redistributing income through the federal government". — Cloward–Piven strategy · Wikipedia
But while the image of the libertarian potential of advanced industrial society is repressed (and hated) by the managers of repression and their consumers, it motivates the radical opposition and gives it its strange unorthodox character. Very different from the revolution at previous stages of history, this opposition is directed against the totality of a well-functioning, prosperous society – a protest against its Form – the commodity form of men and things, against the imposition of false values and a false morality. This new consciousness and the instinctual rebellion isolate such opposition from the masses and from the majority of organized labor, the integrated majority, and make for the concentration of radical politics in active minorities, mainly among the young middle-class intelligentsia, and among the ghetto populations. Here, prior to all political strategy and organization, liberation becomes a vital, “biological” need. — An Essay on Liberation · Herbert Marcuse · 1969 -
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, what is it you have in mind for Israel?
(I get the impression you have something broader in mind, perhaps beyond Israel.) -
Ukraine CrisisUkraine's status as a country, independence, sovereignty, whatever was established in 1991, a couple of years after the Berlin Wall came down. Changes.
During Vladimir Putin's tenure (1999-), various positions have been filled by ex-KGB and such (almost resembling a slow coup).
In 2003, one of the richest Russian oligarchs, Mikhail Khodorkovsky, talked about widespread corruption in front of a dismayed Putin (in a public meeting), putting numbers on the money, and what happened? The same year he's tossed in prison where he'd be for a decade. Control. Signaling.
Starting around 2009, Barack Obama (and Hillary Clinton) tried to "reset" and improve US-Russia relations. Around 2011, Putin had troubles at home, there were protest against him in various cities across Russia, and what happened? Putin blamed Clinton.
Sometime, whenever, before 2009, the Kremlin circle (apparently uncompromisingly) decided that it would be unbearable to lose control over Crimea, and perhaps lose their empowering influence over Ukraine, something along those lines. Likely not an overnight thing; perhaps there'd been an "entitled", irredentist, "ownership", revanchist sentiment since the end of the Cold War in those circles. They'd need to secure a land bridge to whatever they hence might have to grab. A new or extended Kharkiv Pact wouldn't do, for example. Couldn't be left for an independent country to decide. Planning.
And so that decision marked the — henceforth seemingly inevitable — collision course of which we've seen the results. The Kremlin circle (whenever before 2009) against Ukraine (1991).
After all, we're talking about the largest country in the world, assertive, powerful, to be respected — and regressive. Well, meanwhile, despite resistance from early on and later invasion, Ukraine has been working towards implementing a modern, free, transparent democracy. -
US Election 2024 (All general discussion), you don't believe there have been and are such campaigns/projects/activities? :brow: Except for the reports thereof, a rather impressive multinational multicultural conspiracy? :chin:
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US Election 2024 (All general discussion), yep, fact. There have been, and are, such campaigns/projects/activities. (2022Jun10, 2024Mar13, 2024May22, 2024Jun14, 2024Aug13-)
(Some of the more heavy-duty ones aren't run against the US, though, but smaller, more "manageable", areas.)
You can also find some in Europe and Africa, and you can also find some run by US agents.
Odd that you first deny such activities only to turn around and instead call the reports of them such activities, first denying then claiming their existence. -
US Election 2024 (All general discussion), and yet there have been, and are, such campaigns — fact.
You may opine on what to do about them, but not their existence.
They've increased during the time of the present Kremlin, and, in addition to effects/efficiency, we might ask the same old question: To what end? -
Relativism vs. Objectivism: What is the Real Nature of Truth?Indexical utterings like "I'm the prime minister of Sweden" will typically be true for one person (or none) and false for others.
I suspect that's not quite what's meant here by "Relativism" though.
Doesn't "Objectivism" and "Real" go together here?
If there is a "Real Nature of Truth" would it not be objective?
Ignoring indexicals for a moment, it seems clear enough that there are independent truths.
Say, "The Sun burned less brightly 4 billion years ago" holds true (or false) regardless of whatever you or I may think ("brightly" can be translated to physics).
Doesn't seem particularly controversial. -
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, here's what I already wrote (I thought there'd been enough repetition):
Two important problems (out of more): injustice and threat. The Palestinians ought to see ongoing justice, the Jews ought to see ongoing existential safety, things enjoyed by many nations.
Blindness to just one of them isn't helping, is part of the problem, and seems to have hit you and @BitconnectCarlos alike.
Say, what do you have in mind for Israel then? International isolation? Recolonization? Tzeentch's scenario? Who cares? You might as well say so (if you have anything) for further discussion. @BitconnectCarlos apparently thinks in terms of erasing Hamas entirely, except others will emerge, plus there are other neighbors (mentioned by @Tzeentch). What about two states? -
US Election 2024 (All general discussion)In today’s vatniksoup, I’ll discuss the Kremlin’s funding of Tennessee-based media company TENET Media. TENET Media is best-known for their promotion of Russian narratives and for strong support for...…
— Pekka Kallioniemi · Vatnik soup · Sep 5, 2024
Meet the right-wing Canadian influencers accused of collaborating with an alleged Russian propaganda scheme
— Jonathan Montpetit, Aloysius Wong · CBC · Sep 6-7, 2024
How much influence do such campaigns have anyway? -
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West BankThere's only a struggle for independence made futile by the unconditional support of a coloniser by the West. — BenkeiI'm hardly dismissing it — Benkei
:brow:
Keep up, the context is the (history of the) Palestinians and Jews in the region, up to and including now. Since that's centuries-long and large (re-repeated in the thread), we might focus on the present situation, like, say, two states, the injustices against Palestinians, and the threat against Israel (also re-repeated in the thread).
(Perhaps you'd like to see @Tzeentch's scenario become reality, by, say, isolating Israel internationally, and letting their righteous neighbors run them over (potentially involving nuclear weapons)...? That'd take a bit of sadism I suppose.)
Here in the real world, there's more than one important problem to be addressed / figured out, contrary to what you and @BitconnectCarlos keep telling everyone. -
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, I don't think it's reasonable to dismiss (pointing out) that there's more than one important problem, and that they're best addressed/resolved in the same round. Is that what you call both-sideism? We all know the history, humanitarianism (including homophobia), etc; besides, it's been re-re-iterated often enough here in the thread.
, I'm not really reaching you, am I? We're not just talking some random vigilantes supposedly outside the reach of Israeli justice.
Getting the conflict aspects (and opinions) out in the open is important enough, dismissing a significant important part thereof isn't good enough. None of the radicals are going to get exactly what they want. -
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank
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Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West Bank, Israel is already facing risks and has been for a long time. Ongoing injustices aren't a solution.
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Ukraine Crisis, things the Putinistas don't want to hear, don't want anyone to hear, let alone discuss.
Had Ivashov been younger, there's a fair chance he'd "fall off a balcony and die". -
Coronavirus
hah! That's still a thing in the UK? :)
My impression (which may be wrong) is that lots of things are covered well by taxes, like health, some education, public infra, the usual. Also (which may be wrong), my impression is that the UK has become more progressive since, at least in some ways. The Randians and evangelicals, for example, don't seem to have the same foothold as in the US. But I could have the wrong impression.
Then again, maybe Brexit was seeded by Thatcher (1988).
(Not sure what to make of all the public camera coverage.) -
Coronavirus, Spain, right? (Portugal?)
, aren't both the UK and Spain labeled "socialist democracies"?
Some funding came in via the EU.
Pfizer and BioNTech received a good lot from the US, the EU, Germany, Canada, ... (From memory, the Gates Foundation and others also tossed a fair bit in.)
In retrospect, the project was quite something. So was the noise, by the way. Yet, the cooperation/collaboration and (prior) mRNA/protein technology came together nicely.
A socialist world wouldn't try to weaponise viruses for profit — Benkei
Well, maybe not a socialist world, or better an ethical world. -
Coronavirus
History’s Seven Deadliest Plagues
— Maya Prabhu, Jessica Gergen · Nov 15, 2021
They should have used a color to indicate lethality (risk after infection), perhaps some indicator of how easily the malady spread. -
Israel killing civilians in Gaza and the West BankTwo states does not bring peace — BitconnectCarlos
Maybe not, at least not "just like that".
Yet, given the existing hostilities and hostile neighbors, how much difference would two states make?
Would it not be worthwhile, at least? A sign of good will, for that matter?
The perpetual hostilities aren't helping.
The Israeli existential threat/fear is understandable enough, and so is the injustice to Palestinians.
In case the new state ("Palestine") was to run amok, then the world would see; Israel can defend itself against a demarcated state. Israel could stand up as a bastion of humanitarian values, perhaps even attract/influence Palestinians on that account.
I don't know, but wouldn't dismiss two states with a handwave.
jorndoe
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