Are you saying there is no external world outside human experience? — T Clark

Not quite? I don't like the binary question. I think individual human experience determines our perception of what we think is "reality"; why else would we all disagree so much and with so much brash confidence? Our personal algebra leads us to beliefs about reality that solidify over time to the point of being nearly unmovable. Whether these ossified perspectives have anything to do with some "objective" external world would, then, logically, be something we couldn't know about. Theoretically. Based on this given framework. So, within this view, how can I move to the point at which I have knowledge about some sort of external objectivity?

In discussions of the Tao Te Ching, I remember you commenting that any interpretation by a modern westerner would not be credible. — T Clark

I don't think I said that; just that a modern westerner, when reading it, is trying to interpret an ancient esoteric text, translated from an ancient and obsolete language, the content of which is arcane and mysterious to ears hearing it thousands of years later through an unknown amount of filters that have distilled it to what you're reading in the English in the year 2022. Anyway.

As far as I can tell forms analysis is more challenging of the two given what is likely mountains of data which we have to sift through. — Agent Smith

If I understand you correctly, I would counter that it's easier to analyze the evolution of form, not function. An analysis of function (i.e. in music: harmonic structure, key signatures, rhythmic structure) requires a more formal training, whereas comparing the sound of the snare drum in that Breaking Benjamin song vs. the sound of the snare drum in Come Together by the Beatles is surely much easier and doesn't require any real skill; just a pair of ears and one's attention. The latter being an example of form, to be clear.

Soundgarden in the heat of the grunge movement:



It's gnarly, dirty, and full of energy.

Versus Breaking Benjamin's post-grunge pop music:



Over-produced, calculated, polished, and posturing.

EDIT: i.e., the chord structures and rhythmic structures are not too different, but the production style, the drumming style, the vocal style are all an evolution, but the underlying musical concepts are not that different. So the form, the style, is the only thing that's evolved; the technical information underneath the style hasn't evolved all that much (a little bit, sure).

In further protest of disparate listening threads. Early Scriabin is almost Liszt meets Debussy to my ear:

Even within philosophical discussions, I think "real" is generally just a term to describe the inner world of the person speaking. It's a projection of a personal predisposition unto a public conversation about private experience. This perhaps goes back to my critique of your interpretation of the Tao Te Ching.

In protest of multiple "listening" threads:

Deep cuts!

RIP Pharoah Sanders, the uncompromising master.

wrong thread

:yikes:

I was a tad toasty last night, so I should clarify. There is of course agreement and disagreement of taste. My issue is that when you ask me if I "agree" with a song, that's a non sequitur. You need to clarify what the agreement or disagreement is about. Are you asking if I agree with you that it's a good song? Then say so. that said,

Agree????!!!!???!!???

I'm not a Modest Mouse fan; Can't stand dude's voice, but that was ok. I assume it's early period. I can see the appeal. But yeah I don't like this at all.

I want to watch the NIN deep dive, but 40 minutes is a commitment. I will watch soon. Edit: watched a few minutes, and it's great. A testament to Reznor's genius. Also, is she single...

For the 1,000th time, what the fuck do you mean by "agree?"? That's not how taste in music works. Everyone likes what they like, and whether or not our tastes aline isn't important; there's no "agreement" or "disagreement"; there's only taste.

Dig the Nick Drake by the way.

p.s.
Your last post video isnt working. — Seeker

Hmm, and now?

Self-awareness is indeed strange. As a musician, I had stage fright for the piano, but never for anything else; singing in front of people gave me a rush, and still does, theoretically, but it's been pre-covid. Poor Hanz, on the other hand, looks like he's on stage for the first time. Anyway, we can let him be.

The only indie rock band needed:

The way he puts his hand in his pocket and then immediately takes it out and then strokes his chin. He's clearly uncomfortable. He's spent his whole life in a glass box (studio) and then is suddenly on stage in front of thousands of people. He looks like if my dad accidentally ended up on a stage in front of five thousand people. It's like a Steely Dan concert.

Hans Zimmer watching Gurthrie Govan solo might be the most awkward thing I've ever seen on a stage:

Just that Kate Bush has suddenly become big with gen Z after a song of hers was in Stranger Things.

Gotta ask how old you are, I'm sorry. Just a litmus test.

I just re-listened to Chop Suey. This songs blows.

I forgot Nine Inch Nails; Trent is a genius. Those other bands are definitely a cut above the drivel, but do nothing for me...I get the appeal of System of a Down, but Serj annoys me. Don't know what to tell ya. If you have examples to sway me otherwise I'm all ears.

I think of them as sort of "nu metal" in the sense that they played with a lot of the shitty nu metal bands of the time; they were all playing the same circuits. But yeah, they're a diverse group. Out of that list I like "funk metal" the best. :lol:

"Post grunge" is another term for that scene, of which there are only two other bands I consider worth listening to; Tool and Rage Against the Machine.

As Noble Dust explained previously, it is necessary to makes us feel an emotion that we don't usually feel. — javi2541997

Thanks for the compliments, but I have to mention here that all I said was that it's necessary for me to feel a unique emotion in order to be moved, and to feel that something is art. I didn't mean that as any rubric for anyone else. When I said that I'm done "trying to define art" I was suggesting that I'm avoiding any attempt at objectivity these days. Art is lost to the vice grip of perception.

The only good "nu metal" band, although they don't really count:

Personally I’m done trying to “define art”. My only interest is in whether a piece stirs something in me, makes me think differently, or makes me feel an emotion that i don’t feel every day. This piece did none of those things.

I'm here to expose poor thinking

And doubtless you've never failed.

Pride, obviously.

Very interesting, thanks, I didn't know any of that. I just discovered this song/artist the other day.

Hypnotic, bizarre...

Just hitting the good bits and it's grand. :up:

Kafka On The Shore - Haruki Murakami

Tears:

I do not think I am God. — Bartricks

You're not close.

Kendrick has no peers. Best album of the year

There's a great book by Stephen Schwartz about this called The Two Faces of Islam. — Tom Storm

Thanks, I'll check that out. I'm trying to deepen my understanding of Islam.

argued quite vociferously for years now that Islam desperately needs a reformation — Tom Storm

Yes. It’s a religion that’s gone through many phases; our western perception of it is not an accurate picture of what it’s been for the majority of its history.