I didn't mean to say that we're not animals. But we transcend that basic starting point. See my comments here

So, people playing trumpets — Michael Ossipoff

:-O >:O

If God exists, then he has the greatest value of all, and is thus the ultimate end. — Samuel Lacrampe

I'd rather not think about "value" in relation to God or people. If people are "ends", then that precludes the concept of value, and the same for God. So the hierarchy that exists is one of being, in the sense that God is a supreme being, and we're finite. But that doesn't relate to value. If people had value, what would that value be in relation to? And the same for God. I just think it's a category error. People transcend value, and the same for God. When I hear "God...is thus the ultimate end", it makes me think of the Christian idea that man's purpose to is to glorify God. That makes no sense. In what way would God be an ultimate end? It's a conflation of the supreme nature of the divine with a sense of hierarchical value. Try as we might, we can't remove ourselves from our own experience, so the ultimate end for us has to be something that we can parse within our finite experience, and God as ultimate ends doesn't parse. It's rather that our ultimate end as people is to participate in creation with God. The creative urge is the divine urge. Participation with the divine is the noblest end possible.

Oh another reason why I experience lack of joy may also be because I always view myself as the underdog, who is always contrarian and has to prove himself right even against overwhelming odds - — Agustino

Right, I've seen this trend with you. In the best, softest way (or wait; maybe I should say it in the most violent way with you???), I think this is absolutely a problem of yours. You have a Jesus Christ Complex.

Mind you, I see it in you because I also see it in me. Try to be level-headed about this...

This would be a very misleading statement. — Agustino

No misleading intended. So, if the difference is between "sometimes" and "always", as it seems to be in your distinction here, then yes, if that's what you stipulated initially, then of course I'll acknowledge that. I of course never intended to mislead. I shouldn't need to mention that to you personally.

I said I sometimes experience lack of joy, but I wouldn't give up discipline and hard work for other things, because they do ensure me with a few things which, while not sufficient for happiness, are necessary (or if they're not necessary, they give you a self-esteem boost). — Agustino

Worthwhile thoughts, but I don't think you specifically said that in the referenced context.

compared to feeling proud that you're on a healthy diet! — Agustino

What are your secrets/???

and I pretty much don't enjoy spending my time with any of them. — Agustino

>:O While I can absolutely identify with this...maybe our type should do a better job of learning to identify with the basic level of humanity? Basic not in a moral or ethical sense, but just in the sense of philosophical depth (a sense of depth that I don't, by the way, assign to any level of intellectual ability)?

Hey, cool stuff! I'm a musician, so I have no conception of how you make those sculptures. Sorry that sounds so clueless. I would love to be able to sculpt peoples faces. Well done.

No pressure eh? Lol. — Wosret

None at all. I can't make anyone magically appreciate great art. Take that on a philosophical level, not a personal level.

Well, I post for my own benefit, because I feel the need to put thoughts into garbled misspelled words, lol — Wosret

Well, same here, other than I'm a bit more of a spell check freak.

I have a hell of a lot of nervous energy, and need like multiple distractions going at once, and never commit to much for long. — Wosret

Man, again, if you'll notice, I'm the same. I tend to go on posting sprees here. I'll post for a few days, and then run out of philosophical energy. The thing that keeps me going is the general impulse that the analytical bent is fundamentally flawed...

Most of all I like lyrics, and words, and songs I like have one important similarity, the singing is always very clear, and easily made out. I — Wosret

Ah. Oceansize is probably not for you, then. Cheers to you, though, for being philosophical and giving it a try! Maybe you would like Sigur Ros? That's another band I really like that has very clear (nonsensical) lyrics that create a very specific feeling. You might like it, or not. Check out their "Untitled" album, or instead, for something way less depressing, their album "Takk...".

I'm not a huge appreciator of the music itself, and never listen to instrumentals, and prefer to just fast past stuff, to match my excitable disposition. — Wosret

Maybe you would like Sufjan Stevens newest album "Carrie and Lowell"? The lyrics carry that record in a really profound way. Damn, the words on that record are intense.

Mostly though, it's a really topical album and political album, seemingly about 9/11, and the preceeding wars in the middle east... — Wosret

Oh, no, Frames by Oceansize is not at all about 9/11. That's a common misconception about it.

8-) I really liked the idea! It came from witnessing an older guy on the subway very quietly play his tune on his guitar, while singing. Something about "I'm tired of hate". I thought...sure, me too.

Cool. I mean, the wonderful thing about music is, you might hate this record, but that doesn't affect my assessment of you as a forum member, or the music. That's why I tried to downplay it just now; for me personally, this record has been profound, and that's why I posted. But hey, you may decide that I'm out of my mind, and you may decide this record sucks, after listening to it. And that's fine, and that would be a valid response.

Ha! Exactly. Your answer is excellent. But, with two words, you said all you need to say: "engendered ambiguity". I sensed something sensual in your poem, and your further description not only confirms, but further enlightens my initial feeling with regards to it. Well done.

As to mine, I just wrote that today, so the feeling is very fresh. The weird structure was not initial; that came later. The feeling of talking about "silence" led to the irony of a poem about "silence" getting larger and larger; so I allowed myself to become more and more verbose.

the truth is, this album, titled "Frames" has had a profound influence on me, more so than most philosophy...so, that's really the reason I felt the need to comment here at all...perhaps its better to just move on...

...Nah dude. The first four songs on that record are your best bet. If those first four don't suck you into hearing the entire record, then I guess you've done your due diligence, because the last track is the best of all. So, you only get that experience if you have the patience to hear the whole thing...damn, sorry that sounds so pretentious...just approach it as a philosopher, not as a music lover...or not...?

The point I'm making is: beware the science vs religion narrative in contemporary culture. There is a conflict between religious literalism and scientific materialism, which are in some ways like two sides of a coin. But there is no necessary conflict between a religious philosophy and scientific method. — Wayfarer

Oh, absolutely. I fully agree; my response above was literally just an honest question, not an argument of some sort. Thanks for the elaboration.

At the same time, so called 'evolutionary thinking' gives rise to a lot of crap philosophy (Steve Pinker and Daniel Dennett being prime examples). Trying to explain or understand philosophical problems through the mechanism of adaptive necessity is invariably reductionist, in ways its protagonists can't even grasp. — Wayfarer

I would need to read these people in full to comment appropriately. But the gist I've gotten is in line with your crits, and crits I've seen of yours and others elsewhere. It's the sort of thing that I'll investigate personally if I have the time and resources.

But the upshot is, one can be fully committed to scientific method in respect of evolution and every other scientific question without thereby committing yourself to materialism. — Wayfarer

Yes absolutely...but just in theory. In reality, how realistic is this? That's my only real qualitative question to all of the other things I agree with you on here.

Mozart had to work very hard for it. — Agustino

Debatable...

Maybe you do have something to contribute to society, but you'll never know it unless you try it with your whole being. — Agustino

What is "your whole being"? Why does contribution require this? You've acknowledged that your focus on discipline and hard work has led to a lack of "joy" in life.

Most of the people are too lazy to work as hard as it takes though - so they prefer to have an easier life and be enlightened hedonists. — Agustino

What do you base this view off of? your own view of your own work as being above the work of those hedonists who don't work hard enough? If not, then how exactly do you predicate this admonishment on "the people"? (Forgive me Aug, I have to try to pick you apart about once every quarter here, at least >:O )

I didn't mean to come off as like disagreeable, but only explain that I never even thought of a picture frame, which really adds rather than subtracts from the imagery. Not really contrary, just complimentary. — Wosret

No problem at all; trust me, a thin-skinned dude like me has learned to develop a much thicker skin when dealing with ideas here. I was merely answering in typical kind. Glad you find my ideas complimentary. I literally was just basing my thoughts off of that Oceansize album, which has been a profoundly influential album on me as an artist and person. I thought the similarities were too serendipitous to ignore. Call me a philosophical dilettante; I'll take it in stride.

I know that we're all world builders. — Wosret

Oh, are we? :P

I didn't listen to what you linked, but I will now. — Wosret

Prepare to either be bored out of you mind, or sucked inextricably into my Scorpio world...

Damn, that's a lot to digest. What's the book, and where were you reading that? You paint it as a picture of a landscape that doesn't really change much; just the four seasons in rotation.

Logic is a first principle, the starting point used to infer everything else. I think most people agree that logic is innate, though not everyone agrees it is the case for ethics. — Samuel Lacrampe

Nah I disagree; ethics has to be the first innate thing; otherwise logic just describes a means that has no ends. It's actually extremely simple and not very philosophical at all. The average person understands this better than the average poster on this forum.

I build worlds too. I think we're pretty similar. It's just that we're individuals, so we're not allowed to agree on much, supposedly. I actually agree with you pretty much all the way. I was just mentioning how I perceived your idea, which was different than your own conception of it.

On most days, yeah...but my personal scope is very limited.

There's nothing in your experience that isn't consistent with your being an animal and nothing more. — Michael Ossipoff

Then share with us one piece of evidence that we're animals.

Then share with us one piece of evidence that we're other than animals. — Michael Ossipoff

Gladly:

Yeah, that's cool with me. I just think that people are the ultimate ends. What else is there, other than you and I and our experiences of life?

We all believe what we believe and these beliefs change over time. Some beliefs are more harmful to certain groups or populations of life than other beliefs. — Rich

A: "We're nothing more than animals" -> B: "false, assuming "our" refers to the experience of all of humanity" C: (you): "everyone believes stuff, and sometimes it's harmful and sometimes not".

What's you're argument?

You didn't address my caution about the human condition here. You would need to go into more detail in order to actually address it.

1) your post made me think of my favorite experimental rock record:


Which I think might be no small coincidence. But,

2) as to your philosophical concept, the metaphor of the frame is personally very appealing, but after awhile, it seems to get a little stale? At some points it seems like the metaphor might benefit by changing to some other shape? Or maybe not...the frame, after all, is the very concept in which the picture is formed...as Mike Vennart from Oceansize, above, says: "I am not the picture, now...I'm the frame". I, the one who creates such a frame within which to hold beliefs, am that very frame. Seems to hold.

All Ya'll's clasical is so classical, y'all! Ya'll missin' out on the other classical shit...

Maybe
The silence
Of no applause
For the subway singer
Speaks louder than feigned
Appreciation, than fetishized fawning:
The standing ovation of the deaf sheep herd.
Maybe true feeling is only met with silence, the silence
Of no return to the question of why the silence brings a silent feeling.
Like when the inner flame of thought is quelled by the outer frame of discursive
judgment; the embarrassing lisp of the inner infinite first feeling; the apologetic laugh,
crafted to avert the penetration of an eye; coital fumbling blocked by the self-preservation of an unknown inner kingdom. There’s room here, too, for more obfuscation, for the cover-up white lie of the finally finding feeling that shades itself from summer heat, from the summer salvage of the sickening orange-like glow – no, bell pepper yellow, and succulent sweet too, like it’s turgid crunch – the crunch of newfound yellow-tinged snow beneath the size 5 boots that blast through the unknown, through the sickly, no…the orange…the haze-yellow after-sex glow…

What made you construct that poem like that?

I think we have different personalities. That's not to say that I can't change myself and be more disciplined, but personality is an amalgamation of everything we've experienced and been through in life. So, discipline has been a major part of your life, it sounds like, whereas I've figured out how to be "smart" about it and just barely get by without much discipline, if that makes sense. But if there's a good side to it, it's that I'm open to spontaneity, and I think my creativity is higher than most people. That could be related to lack of discipline, although I've gone through creative periods in which I was very disciplined about my creativity, but not much else. But I was just talking about general discipline in life; indulging in vices too much, not getting things done in a timely manner, general selfishness...but I can't respond to this negatively and say to myself "you're so undisciplined, come on, get it together!" Because that's just one more negative thought about myself. I have to find a way to positively want more discipline, to want self-flourishing and health.

Well, as an undisciplined person, I also feel an absence of joy. :P So maybe joy is about something else.

I understand, but it's not like I like being depressed. I remember waking up in my youth and being interested in the world or doing some things. Now, I wake up and just wait until I can go to sleep again. — Question

I know that feeling. I'm currently trying to get out of that place as well. I keep telling myself I need to be more disciplined in my life, but then that's just another example of being hard on myself...

It is the awakening of the human voice without, of course, an actual human voice. — Brian

Wonderful observation on one of the most emotionally visceral pieces of music in existence.

2. Glass - "Lightning" - Classical piece or pop song? To me, the line is completely obliterated and reveals that sometimes our labels and classifications just do not matter. Music is music, and good music is good music. — Brian

Not my favorite Glass, but definitely important.

1. Reich - Music for 18 Musicians - Without a doubt my favorite classical piece. Almost an hour of totally transfixing music. Minimalism reveals the breadth and depth humanity can achieve while working with the most limited of raw materials — Brian

Certainly one of my favorite Reich pieces, but The Four Sections is my favorite, as I listed above. Do you know John Adams? Post-minimalism has surprisingly deep layers...



Or Andrew Norman's Music In Circles from just a few years ago, performed by yMusic, my favorite new classical ensemble:

https://ymusicensemble.bandcamp.com/track/music-in-circles-part-2-andrew-norman

In Chronological order:

Palestrina - Kyrie - Missa Papae Marcelli



I grew up on this stuff. It's the closest to my heart in a way that's hard to describe. The shear beauty of the harmony is something so treasured, so divine...in a post-post-modern technocratic world...this is like alien sounds...it's truly other-worldly because it's not of the world that we know in the year 2017. There are oh so many arcane arguments for and against the existence of God on this forum. But if we could all simply "understand" this piece of music...I digress...

Debussy - Arabeseque No. 1



Debussy both sealed off the romantic era and subsequently ushered in the symbolist movement with this piece, as far as I'm concerned. There is no out of place note in this piece. It's a perfect piece of music, but also a perfectly tonal piece of music. What better postlude to tonality?

Ravel - Gaspard de le Nuit - Ondine



Ravel is the proto-modernist; the proto-minimalist. Most people wouldn't agree with me on that, but just listen to the opening figure of this piece. Mechanical, menacing, neurotic. Everything that modernity brought to art. The emotional depths that are plumbed in this piece are just riveting and shocking. Not to mention that Ravel's piano music is the most pianistic and challenging of all. Just try following the score...

Stravinsky - The Rite of Spring



I don't need to say much here. Research this piece if you're not familiar with the mythology. The only thing I'll mention is the absolute heavy metal moment at 20:30.

Steve Reich - The Four Sections (Section IV): Full Orchestra



Not a well-known Reich piece, but the hypnotic, emotionally seductive nature of this movement is everything I ever could have wanted in minimalism; this piece to me is the emotionally destructive conclusion of minimalism as a movement. This music is spiritual in the purest sense of the term. You're looking to spar philosophical about the concept of "spirituality"? This piece of music is my rebuttal.

I just meant that people have value in and of themselves.

I was taking "things" in a broad philosophical sense.

Ultra-pensiveness as a way towards supplication... It's not that I would trade anything for it, it's just that she's steadily been draining the IV bag over the past few quarters, which supplies me with a steady ration of bullets to feed on. Decades-old weather forecasts have been helping. I'm waiting on a Chinese Zodiac animal change; it's black market, but it works.

Can you think of a thing that has value in itself, and not only as a means to one of these three ends? — Samuel Lacrampe

People.

Poetic Diction helped in my understanding of how the meanings of words change, and how metaphor is a fundamental component of how language happens. It's not a directly philosophical book, but it's implications are philosophical. It's been a significant influence on me as an artist, and on my own aesthetic philosophy. Saving the Appearances is good, it was just less important for me. But it's definitely required reading for Barfield.

Some stuff:

Nikolai Berdyaev - The Meaning of the Creative Act
Nikolai Berdyaev - Divine and the Human
Owen Barfield - Poetic Diction
Nietszche - The Gay Science

All fine ideas, but what you're missing is a proper analysis of the state of the human condition.

There’s nothing in our experience to suggest that we’re anything other than animals. — Michael Ossipoff

This is categorically false, assuming "our" refers to the entirety of humanity throughout all of history.