I love sleep, but sleep is so much better after a fulfilling day. So I do not think trading being awake for being asleep is very wise, because one requires the other. And I do not think sleep is in anyway comparable to non-existence.

I believe you can choose your own morality. One can be convinced of the value of certain moral principles, the danger of others, and can alter his beliefs thereby. People convert all the time, for instance, at least when given the freedom to do so.

Certainly genes influence behavior but they do not determine morality. People still choose and shape their lives because their genes have provided them the agency and the faculties to do so.

And I do not believe in the determinist position. Unless the determinist can point to something else in the world making the decisions, it cannot be said that anything else in the universe is making the decisions. No “force of nature” outside of myself makes me move something from one place to another. The decisions and actions begin and end in the self and nowhere else.

Someone hasn't heard of the 22nd Amendment.

Someone hasn’t heard of a joke.

Yes if you afford someone rights you thereby have a duty not to break them. Your right to free speech is my duty not to censor you, and so on.

I accept the rule of law but only where it is just.

If this were true then there'd be no such thing as guidance counselling, and no such thing as the study of morality. Are you amoral?

I’m not amoral. I just don’t feel the need to adopt any one morality without first choosing to do so. There certainly is such a thing as guidance counselling. But it’s just advice, not some prescription on how to best live one’s life.

Do you recognize for example, that you were born into a very particular place in this world, and no matter how hard you try to "find the strength and courage to alter your situation", this situation cannot be altered? It makes no difference how much freedom and liberty you afford yourself, the situation you are in right now, being defined by what has come to pass, cannot be altered.

The fact that I can move something from one place to another proves I can alter my situation. I know I cannot go back and change the beginning, but I can start where am and change the ending. I think that was CS Lewis.

The policy would be for the manager in this case.. But I guess other employees not screwing each other over either. It's like you live in a dream world where everyone takes the responsible action. If that was the case, you're right, no need for government.. Shades of Locke and definitely Hobbes here.

I don’t believe some legislator knows how to run my business better than I do. Likewise, I don’t need nor want the state to step in where my own employment is concerned. But no I do not believe everyone takes the responsible action. I just believe that they are capable of doing so.

Why would an antinatalist put so much energy into proving it, if it was selfish? This isn't just a personal lifestyle choice, it's a whole ethos and largely very passionate one. Even on its face you are incorrect.

You are backpeddling and now without justification.. Don't force others, don't cause harm to others unnecessarily.. I explained inter-wordly affairs and intra-worldly affairs. I gave justifications for why your own ethos actually only applies at one level and not another. You seem perturbed by this and cast ad homs at antinatalists. Not a great rebuttal.

Passionate or not, In my mind it’s a poor ethos that benefits no one but the one espousing it. I say this because no anti-natalist can point to a single person who benefits from it, lest he points to himself. These “others” you purport to be helping do not exist. So how can you, and why would you, claim that you are in some way refusing to force and cause them suffering? It’s an ethos that cannot serve anyone outside of your own imaginings.

You got me all wrong, Tim. And yes, I can say Lejoy.

But the answer is that in a world where "de facto" people can't just leave their job on a whim, or without causing much disruption, the better outcome is to have a policy that allows for maximum freedom without affecting people's personal health unnecessarily. Good day.

People can leave their jobs as countless people have proven. Whether they have the confidence to do so is another question. Either way, no policy can replace personal responsibility. And if policies is what one requires to guide him through life, quitting his job should be the least of his concerns. Cheers.

So I've mentioned before how birth is the only case where one can perfectly not cause harm and force. The simple act of NOT doing something (negative ethics) would allow this. However, once born, things change. People are now in the world. Prior to birth, it is inter-worldly considerations (birth and life), where once in the world, its intra-worldly affairs. This means a) there will ALWAYS be some violation of negative ethics. Thus any form of deontological ethics and utilitarianism in intraworldly affairs would have to be mitigated against what forms of violation are considered more valuable or lead to greater outcomes than others. Of course, this mitigation and negotiation of ethical dillemmas could have been avoided altogether if one prevented it at the inter-wordly consideration level.

Sure, if you prevent life you prevent any difficulties that come with it. But I still think pretending one is being ethical in doing so is a disguise for self-concern and personal failures. The anti-natalist is literally helping no one but himself while pretending he is. In that sense it is not so ethical as it is deceitful.

Ugh, if life just fit your "liberty" model so easily.. You don't recognize de facto unfreedoms, so we probably have nothing more to say to each other. If you don't recognize how de facto situations lead to "not really freedom" situations, I can't help you.

If you cannot find the strength and courage to alter your situation, I can understand why you wish you were never born to begin with. But things can change.

Really? You wear your thoughtless absurdity like a purple robe. One that a Brutus could "unkindly knock."

And you show your susceptibility to the basest of propaganda. The only ones seeking to alter the USPS and the election are the democrats, and this is proven by their push for mail-in voting and the massive provisions regarding elections and the USPS in the coronavirus relief packages. The only ones suppressing the vote are those saying it is dangerous to go to the voting booth. Mailboxes have been disappearing every year by the thousands for decades due to underuse. Of course only the most news-riddled could turn these facts into an anti-Trump conspiracy theory.

The point of a good morality is to encourage the individual to seek one's own well-being. Morality definitely must start with the individual. But "individual freedom and liberty" might not be an appropriate value to be assigned high priority. We observe that a good community is much more conducive to the individual's well-being than is freedom and liberty. So a good morality would inspire an individual toward producing a good community, rather than direct the individual toward freedom and liberty.

Neither you or I can tell another how to seek his own well-being, for how to live one’s life is best left for him to decide. That is why one must be at liberty to choose his own fate. If that means adopting a collectivist mindset, that’s fine, but without first the freedom to decide on his own he is little more than a slave.



That’s a very convoluted argument regarding anti-natalism. But it shows that even you subscribe to the notion of individual liberty. The difference is you only offer it to “potential children”, beings that cannot be found on any plane of existence. Let’s see if you can extend that sentiment to flesh and blood human beings.

An individual right not to be made sick by others? Of course intentionally infecting others with disease is a serious crime, and one has every right to hide in a padded cell to avoid community infection. But there is no right to not be infected by others, just like there is no right not to get wet from rain. Life is a risk. One must take the precautions he deems necessary in order to be safe.

If you feel unsafe at work you can refuse to work there. It’s that easy.

That's the mindset that is common, as you've hinted at, that is a part of the unraveling. The overvalued notions of individual freedom and liberty at the expense of the community.

I think the opposite is the case: the overvalued (and abstract) notions of community are acted out at the expense of individual freedom and liberty. And the fact that all communities are composed of individuals makes any denial of individuals rights and freedoms all the more dangerous.

Spread the word of liberty and break through the Great Firewall. As the Hong Kong protesters and the ‘89 democracy movement showed, people want it and are willing to risk their lives for it.

You mention that belief in determinism is self refuting. I don't see it. Your belief is determined, just like anything else. Yes, their argument would be determined. Yes, their conclusion would be determined.

What else beyond oneself determines the belief? If nothing else determines the belief, oneself has determined it.

A story you won’t see on CNN, who doesn’t even mention it, is the election fraud in NJ.

New Jersey has yet to get to its second of three rounds of 2020 elections, and so far we’ve seen misdelivered ballots, ballots dropped in piles in apartment lobbies and ballots burned in a mail truck fire. Meanwhile, clerks’ offices are inundated with a flood of mail-in ballots, plus thousands more applications for ballots, many from unaffiliated voters who clerks said don’t intend to vote in the July 7 primary.

“It’s a mess,” said state Sen. Declan O’Scanlon, R-Monmouth.

Gov. Phil Murphy ordered May’s local elections and July’s primaries to be conducted almost entirely by mail as part of the state’s effort to curb the spread of the coronavirus. Since then, the missteps have included:

Republican voters in Somerset County received ballots meant for Democratic voters.Morris Township ballots were destroyed when a mail truck caught fire June 20.Possible computer glitches at the New Jersey Motor Vehicle Commission assigned the wrong party registration to some voters and sent two ballots to voters who have legally changed their names, according to New Jersey Globe.One out of 10 ballots in May’s local elections were not counted, according to NJ Spotlight.

There is also new statewide voter registration software that has been glitchy, slowing the process further, clerks told NorthJersey.com.

“It’s unfortunate and unfair that these elections are going to have an asterisk next to them,” Senate President Stephen Sweeney, D-Gloucester, said Monday.

The allegations out of Paterson may be the most troubling. State Attorney General Gurbir Grewal alleges that Councilman Michael Jackson and Councilman-elect Alex Mendez handled mail-in ballots improperly. Jackson possessed too many mail-in ballots that were not his own and Mendez submitted voter registration applications he knew were false, Grewal claims. Two workers for a third campaign were also charged with election fraud.

One woman said she was hired by the Mendez campaign to pick up and drop off numerous stacks of ballots eight days prior to the election, said a lawyer for one of the losing candidates.

https://www.njherald.com/news/20200630/its-mess-paterson-voter-fraud-just-taste-of-mail-in-ballot-issues-plaguing-new-jersey

Imagine it on a national scale.

They agreed to a 10 billion dollar loan just a couple weeks ago. Is that circumstantial evidence included in this theory?

The USPS gives the reason why they’re removing the boxes, but these reasons are dismissed in favor of a trite conspiracy theory, Very thoughtful.

Am I reading this correctly? Is Chump actually ordering US mailboxes to be carted away?

Nope. It’s just a conspiracy theory.

The first domino falls in the Durham probe.

Former FBI lawyer Kevin Clinesmith will plead guilty to making a false statement in the first criminal case arising from U.S. Attorney John Durham's review of the investigation into links between Russia and the 2016 Trump campaign, two sources close to the matter tell Fox News.

Clinesmith was referred for potential prosecution by the Justice Department's inspector general's office, which conducted its own review of the Russia investigation.

Specifically, the inspector general accused Clinesmith, though not by name, of altering an email about former Trump campaign adviser Carter Page to say that he was "not a source" for another government agency. Page has said he was a source for the CIA. The DOJ relied on that assertion as it submitted a third and final renewal application in 2017 to eavesdrop on Page under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/durham-probe-ex-fbi-lawyer-to-plead-guilty-in-first-criminal-case-arising-from-review-attorney-says

Not a good look for the Crossfire team.

More peace in the Middle East thanks to Trump. Neocons on suicide watch.

Israel and United Arab Emirates Strike Major Diplomatic Agreement

For the concept of "property" to exist, the only thing required is law, if by "property" you mean something which a person can claim to own.

It’s the other way about. Without property there would be no laws protecting it.

Until now we’ve justified it with the concept of rights, in this case the right that the worker has to the value he has created by his own labor. Man must sustain his life through his own efforts, and if he cannot use the product of his own effort as he sees fit, he cannot sustain his life.

Someone to appease the donor class and someone for the media to faun over. That’s all the Dems need. Now they can run the campaign on “making history” while covering for both their garbage careers.

The article embraces Anti-americanism, formed, as it was, from afar, from an insulated view, and through the lens of a hostile media. Sweeping generalizations and lies by omission without any actual study. And this from a reputable anthropologist.

Only during life can we supply it with meaning. If there was an afterlife there would be no meaning to life, and no sense in living it.

So... what makes something an ability. Competence is basic coherence. Why is it an ability of any use if everyone can do it. That makes someone elite- in a way. So you want, and I'm going to hope you're from whatever country we're talking about and not acting under the auspices of another, the most qualified and crucial positions such as medicine, defense, technology, science, education, etc... to be replaced with just anyone who knows how to get dressed in the morning? Erm... yeah that's a big no. lol

No, that’s not what I want. I just mean that most if not all of the skills needed to perform the work of professionals within many institutions could be acquired through practical experience rather than formal education. But since many industries require the credentials, and thus the elite education, those in power tend to be of the same mind and experience. It’s called “credentialism“, and I think it has helped form the disastrous policies of elite institutions.

This is a great read from a whistleblower. A taste of things to come in the Spygate scandal.

The Spies who Hijacked America

Who are you going to replace that elite with? Are you going to do away with "experts" too?

I don’t think expertise and “eliteness” can be measured by formal credentials. Rather, I think positions of power and influence should be open to anyone of any class, so long as they possess the abilities and competence. I believe that until now the elite have ensured a monopoly over positions of power by teaching a certain culture through the public education system (the hidden curriculum), forcing others to acquire the credentials to compete in a subordinate job market and economy. In this way, elite institutions have remained closed to members of different classes and belief systems. We need to diversify, and not just in the way people look.

The “elite” have proven they are not equipped to govern. All they can do is talk, and as such, can only sing lullabies about this or that while they delegate the decision-making to “experts”.

The United States was, I think, the biggest PR firm in the world at one time. But PR politics are over. So It’s no surprise that those who rely most on American military power for their safety and comforts get most worried when it comes asking for compensation.

The free world is losing it’s meal ticket. The elites are watching their power wane. No more free rides.

Humans have a tendency for counterfactual thinking. It says more about psychology than metaphysics or ethics.

If we measure the spatiotemporal existence and its effects, “the internal monologue of our minds” is nothing in comparison to our concrete behavior and action. The fleeting voices and imagery found in the brain activity of an organism is secondary, tertiary, to the movements of the entire organism itself. One can have the most vile and violent thoughts and still be a nice person, because his thoughts affect little while his actions will always reverberate beyond himself. So in a way it is wrong to say our concrete actions and behaviors are a mere mask.

One cannot be “genuinely nice” or virtuous because his thoughts seem to him to be so. It exists in the actions, the behaviors, the mannerisms, and in how he treats others. What one “truly thinks” doesn’t matter—he can think whatever he wants with no demonstrable affect beyond his surface—but the manner in which one acts is key.

Trump trimming more fat.

Trump moves to overhaul Tennessee Valley Authority leadership

President Trump announced Monday he's firing the Tennessee Valley Authority chair and is pushing for the ouster of the corporate agency's CEO, citing the authority's outsourcing of American jobs and high compensation.

Seated near TVA employees at a White House roundtable, the president blasted TVA chair James Thompson and CEO Jeffrey Lyash. Lyash is the highest paid federal employee, earning $8 million a year in total compensation. Mr. Trump said he's also removing board member Richard Howarth. The president said any new CEO must earn no more than $500,000.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/trump-to-overhaul-overhaul-tennessee-valley-authority-leadership/

I don’t think violence is justified, nor can I consider it a form of protest. However I think leaving the country is entirely justified. If the social contract is broken it makes no sense to stay in it and break it some more.

Anti-authoritarianism would destroy all concepts of "politics", and "government". Without authority no government, or society can be built. Authority is must to create society where we want to have "rights", without authority, everyone would have different conception of "rights", that lead to chaos and war.

Only thing that held societies together, is their authority, like politicians, army, police etc.

I'm not sure we can equivocate anti-authoritarianism with anti-authority because an authority is capable of defending rather than limiting individual freedoms. For instance I think it necessary that any free population organize a force to protect and defend themselves from attacks on their rights and property. If we are so anti-authority that we can't even create such a force to defend ourselves from threats to our freedoms, we are subject to Popper's paradox of tolerance.

That’s one of the things I enjoy about western culture in general, and American culture in particular. It has more or less vanquished its monsters. We have recognized and transcended our crimes, and continue to do so. That’s something to be proud of.

Given that, a nation cannot forever identify with its monsters, especially when freedom won out over oppression. That seems to be the case with the anti-Americanism, and in my estimation, authoritarianism pervading the culture these days.

Trump going after the disillusioned Sanders voter.

It’s true. The melting-pot vs multicultural society is an interesting dichotomy. I have trouble identifying as Canadian despite my citizenship, no matter how much hockey or maple syrup I imbibe.

But out of respect for the OP we should return to the topic if you can think of any way to swing it in that direction.

I’m a little too cynical to believe any one group of people is capable of such a conspiracy. So I have to attribute the behavior to some form or other of mass hysteria or megalomania.

Perhaps. I’m more American than Canadian. I suppose that’s the benefit of a multicultural society—I get to retain my culture at the expense of a new one.

And a weird touch of scatological homoeroticism as well. Sign of the times, I suppose.