I’m more of a “let justice reign even though the heavens fall” kind of guy.

I think it’s unfair to give a lower priority to those who have arguably payed more into a system that has promised to heal them. But this situation may, in the end, change my mind in this regard.

Quoting the doctor:

“No one is getting kicked out, but we’re offering criteria of priority. These choices are made in normal times, but what’s not normal is when you have to assist 600 people all at once."

I’m a layman, so when he says “criteria of priority” I assumed he meant different patients are given different priorities, higher and lower. I thought this was how triage worked but I could be wrong.

We’re talking about governance, which is inherently political.

Fair enough.

It will be interesting to see, when this is all over, how well the various systems grappled with this situation.

https://www.politifact.com/factchecks/2020/mar/18/facebook-posts/italys-overwhelmed-hospitals-are-treating-elderly-/

I understand the utilitarian arguments for giving lower priority to the elderly. But it is unjust.

Could a healthcare system every be universal if they cannot care for their patrons universally? Italy has universal coverage, or at least that’s what they sold the good people of Italy, but it turns out not to be the case.

I’ve already looked.

Perhaps you can provide an example of a model that has gotten it right, given that it is so objective.

I cannot disagree with that.

The problem is you cannot predict the future.

No, there isn't. Until the virus is under complete control, there is no question. It's that simple. Anything else is dissimulation and the effective murder of populations - primarily the poor, the old, and the already sick - in the interests of the rich. If you think differently you're either objectively wrong or OK with that.

In Italy utilitarian principles are applied to the triage,
and the elderly are given low priority because they are less likely to survive. That’s an unfair hand to be dealt, especially since the elderly have spent much of their lives paying into the system that has promised to care for them. So though you can speciously blame others for theoretical and future deaths of hundreds of thousands, you have said nothing of actual deaths and the decisions that have led to their demise.

The problem with the trolly problem is not the trolly, but the track. A train track assumes a fixed route and fixed destination. I think those who apply the trolly problem to real life and dynamic situations are dangerously mistaken in that regard.

Yeah it really is unprecedented. In the short term lots of testing is going to be vital, so we don't need to keep flying blind. And in the mid to long term, there will very likely be a vaccin.... and more knowledge, better measures and infrastructure in case of new outbreaks.

There is good news on the testing front. According to Dr. Birx at the CDC, the US has done more tests in 8 days than South Korea has done in 8 weeks. According to Birx, the US is now doing 50,000 to 70,000 tests a day. So hopefully we’ll get some reliable data out of the deal.

Prince Charles tests positive For Novel Coronavirus. I really hope the queen is safe.

There is a National day of prayer every year, the first Thursday of May, and the President is required by law to issue a proclamation for it. It is, in my opinion, a violation of church and state.

I really don't view the coronavirus crisis as evidence that capitalism is a failed enterprise. Whatever bailout money is available, we must remember, was collected in a capitalistic system. Without getting overly ideological, I think we can all agree that regardless of economic system, from laissez faire capitalism to totalitarian communism, nothing can survive or provide any social security if no one goes to work. I have no reason to expect the economic rebound will be less in America than in Europe.

It’s not a bailout. They’re loans. As far as I am aware the only part that is being forgiven is the wages.

That was actually funny.

Those sorts of appeals to emotions only work on your fellow travellers. I can see the difference between who say they care for others vs. those who actually do. With a simple twist of the tongue you can say you’re saving lives without having to rise from your lazy-boy.

So suspend rent and provide income relief. Hell, establish a UBI ASAP. Better yet, communalize the means of production everywhere, put businesses into the hands of workers, and nationalize every single company that asks for and gets a bailout. Abolish the private health system by yesterday, and ensure that everyone can afford to be treated. Suspend all medical debt. Hell, abolish all medical debt. Time for a debt jubilee. Worried about the economy being passed on to children? Abolish all student debt too. Appropriate the wealth of anyone worth more than a billion dollars; name a dog park after them so that they feel better. So many things that can be done. But you'd much prefer to murder half a million+ of your population.

Why not just eliminate money altogether and toss everyone in the Gulag who disagrees? No. We’ve seen the lengths despots have gone to realize their technocratic schemes. They always end up using human beings as the brick and mortar.

Already showing the seeds for the next blame game.

How the CDC’s Restrictive Testing Guidelines Hid the Coronavirus Epidemic
Testing Blunders Crippled US Response as Coronavirus Spread
How U.S. coronavirus testing stalled: Flawed tests, red tape and resistance to using the millions of tests produced by the WHO

I have picked up on it. My argument is that I am suspicious of step 3 for the reasons I’ve already stated.

As for comparing it to the Spanish flu, I have been accused of spreading disinformation because I wrote of other viruses and the measures taken to prevent them, so on that I cannot comment.

It’s not wrong. South Korea didn’t need to put their economy on hold and to enact draconian measures.

Amid these dire trends, South Korea has emerged as a sign of hope and a model to emulate. The country of 50 million appears to have greatly slowed its epidemic; it reported only 74 new cases today, down from 909 at its peak on 29 February. And it has done so without locking down entire cities or taking some of the other authoritarian measures that helped China bring its epidemic under control. “South Korea is a democratic republic, we feel a lockdown is not a reasonable choice,” says Kim Woo-Joo, an infectious disease specialist at Korea University. South Korea’s success may hold lessons for other countries—and also a warning: Even after driving case numbers down, the country is braced for a resurgence.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/03/coronavirus-cases-have-dropped-sharply-south-korea-whats-secret-its-success

I still think it’s too early to say, but so far they have done the right thing and they didn’t need to suspend civil liberties and tank their economy in order to do so. The recession is because of “supply shock”, due to Chinese lockdowns and the like.

It is too late for that in the US. The CDC and FDA have royalty screwed our chances at early testing.

You do care, obviously, and I will abide by your authority.

I’ll delete the information, but only because I pity censors.

I’m writing about the containment measures for epidemics.

Nah.

The Global recession is already here, just like the pandemic. And your economy isn't ruined. It would be ruined if Russia fired all it's nukes at the US, but in reality those soviet nuclear warheads have only given you electricity to your cities. Besides, after a downturn, then there's a great opportunity for economic growth!

Trump doesn't understand it, but NOW the crash and dire economic situation is not going to be blamed on him. He won't have Joe Biden saying like Clinton to Bush "It's the economy, stupid!" Any idiot will understand that this recession has happened because we still put human life before money.

South Korea didn’t need to put their economy on hold and to enact draconian measures.



Both are contagious viruses that cause respiratory illness.

It's a dangerous lie that it is only corporations panicking about "bottom lines". Many of us are without work, and if this continues much longer, will be unable to pay bills and rent.

The theory of "social distancing" and forced lockdowns on a mass scale is now being forced upon us by governments. According to the WHO, even with small-scale social distancing, "the benefit has to be weighed against the cost of disruption".

Social distancing may help. It includes isolation of patients, staying at home when sick, and school closure. School closures have the greatest benefit when applied early in the course of the outbreak. The benefit has to be weighed against the cost of disruption;

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/managing-epidemics-interactive.pdf

There is insufficient evidence to support screening at entry ports and social distancing (spatial separation of at least one metre between those infected and those non‐infected) as a method to reduce spread during epidemics.”

There was limited evidence that social distancing was effective, especially if related to the risk of exposure.

https://www.cochranelibrary.com/cdsr/doi/10.1002/14651858.CD006207.pub4/full

Barbarism? The impotent notion that questioning the authoritarian responses of governments is tantamount to wanting people dead is utter nonsense.

There’s my answer.

Do you?

I apologize for impugning your motives.

I don’t have an answer.

Spell this out. If you're comparing misery to misery - parroting word-for-word a certain shitstain in chief - what is the threshold of deaths at which you'd be prepared to countenance reversing the 'reaction'? How many can or should die? You can round to the nearest ten thousandth if you like. A percentage of population will do too. Answer with a number or don't answer at all..

Children are largely unlikely to be affected by the disease itself but we are going to hand them an economy that we’ve ruined. No amount of technocratic number-crunching and chart-viewing can avoid that.

The idea that the reaction will be worse than the disease is becoming more and more likely.

Gotcha. I just wanted to make sure it was clear it was tried and one person passed away as a result of doing it.
Along the same lines, isn't one of the drugs the active ingredient in Tonic water? Much diluted I get but I am just curious.

I can’t imagine the reasoning that went into eating/drinking fishbowl cleaner.

Yeah, I’ve heard that too about tonic water. Time to head out and buy a palette of it.

Specifically this tweet, and this article.

I don't know what he bought. And this seems like deflection. My posting the article had nothing to do with Trump.

I doubt that.

Shawn didn’t buy fishbowl cleaner.

Do you think they put Trump in there for any other reason? They posted that for the same reason you posted it, and that almost certainly wasn’t to inform others.

It was sensationalist and false, with the intent to mislead in order to damage a person. Didn’t you post a similar story?