Becoming aware that one is conscious requires complex natural/common language. Being conscious does not. — creativesoul

:up: :up: :clap:

is it necessary that I am something that can be referred to as "what"? — unreadpages

If "What am i ?" isn't the right question to ask, then what question is most appropriate to ask ..?

Within oneself sounds geographical, are we talking about a location in space? Or does the word "within" have an archaic sense related to the association of a self with a biological enclosed system (body), the primal idea of space? — unreadpages

Well i think the "oneself" is more like an idea a person have about themselves, a Self-concept which include probably the association with the body.

So many questions, so little answers, the main problem dealing with theses type of questions is the lack of practical experiences :confused:

It does equal awareness, but not necessarily self-awareness. — luckswallowsall

I will copy-paste what i wrote before in page 1 ..

Awareness : Having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge

Imagine we understand what consciousness really is and how it works, then we proceed to create a artificial life form with our understanding. As we build we realize we don't have enough money to build it like we wanted so we chose to decrease dramatically the cognitive abilities, the memory storage and the capacity of our AI to form a new structures.
Once we finished, we decide to study it, by various tests, to see how our AI work. As we test our AI we remark that it can't realize what is happening due to very low cognitive abilities, it cannot form enough knowledge too bcs of very low memory storage, and bcs of low capacity of forming new structures it perceive - organization of sensory inputs - very little about the world. Our AI experience - the rough sensory inputs - without realization of experiencing and without realization of oneself identity, our AI is not aware - at least by the definition above.
Ofcs is an imagined scenario, maybe what we call consciousness need some good level of cognitive abilities, memory, perception and maybe more ..

Sorry for no replies, i had so many things to do ..

Consciousness = the ability to form, have, and/or hold thought/belief and all that that entails — creativesoul

Thought/belief consists of mental correlations, associations, and/or connections drawn between different things. — creativesoul

If Consciousness = the ability to form - have and/or hold - Thought/belief, does that mean that the unconscious processes cannot form Thought/belief ?

Thinking is by definition a conscious activity, is "the action of using one's mind to produce thoughts" - Merriam-Webster.com.
There must be a subject who is thinking, the same as there must be a subject who is experiencing. There is a theory that claims there can be unconscious thoughts - Unconscious thought theory (UTT) - but i think thoughts isn't the right word, it's more like unconscious processing.

My point is, Thinking is a conscious activity and thoughts are "flow of ideas", ofcs based upon brain prior structures but none the less conscious "flow of ideas" - consciousness may interfere -, what we can call unconscious thoughts are just unconscious brain processing and calling those processing "thoughts" is like saying your computer think bcs he process information.

But beliefs are not the same as thoughts. If you are born in a catholic - or other religion - family and since the young age your family teach you that Jesus is God, your unconscious mind will form new brain structures and will hold the statement "Jesus is God" for true. Your belief in God is just some brain structures developed by unconscious processes through repetition. The same as your environment build the belief in God, another environment can make you doubt about that belief.
I see beliefs like mental principles which we hold through time, theses principles can emerge from unconscious processes or conscious "flow of ideas".

Your conscious mind did not do much of the work composing your OP, just as my conscious mind is mostly an observer watching the words come off my fingertips. — Bitter Crank

I think "observer" isn't the right word to use to describe consciousness. Observer means that the one is "looking at" something - in this case some brains activities -, i would rather say that the conscious mind is experiencing within some brain activities. Then, the question is, those experiencing within some brain activities impact the outcome or the structure of those brain activities ? or it's just a passive experience.

If experiencing something doesn't change the outcome or the structure then the hard problem kicks in .. Why we experience ?

Thx for your dedication on this thread :smile: I enjoyed reading you

Seems like consciousness always appears as a feature of a system, within which it functions. This theory is known as distributed cognition (I've read the term 'embedded cognition' also). — Pantagruel

Thx for sharing, i didn't knew this theory. I will check it out

How would you explain what "Quantity" or "Shape" is to someone? I don't think you can. I think there are concepts that us humans just "start off" with like shapes, quantities, space, time that cannot be represented by anything more basic. Just think about it. If you define A using concepts B, C and D and proceed to define those using their own different concepts etc etc you'd never be done defining things. Nothing would make sense, because everything just has an infinitely long definition. There has to be a set of concepts you just "know" that you use to define others. — khaled

Of course ! I never said that someone could comprehend everything just by the definitions, but definitions can at least give some ideas of something. I would not say that Humans are born with some "prior concepts" but rather with some prior intuitions - E.Kant -, concepts are more practical and are formed by induction of different phenomenons - or knowledge -, intuitions are not clear, abstract and fuzzy, it's more like a feeling.

Thx for your reply

I don't think this is an issue of knowledge but rather one of definition — Coben

Definition require some sort of knowledge don't you think ? You can't define something if you know nothing about it but you can define it approximately if your knowledge isn't sufficient enough for more complete definition.

If you are conscious you will know what consciousness is and if you're not you won't — khaled

Since i am conscious right now i should know what consciousness is .. but i don't and nobody really knows. Also, If one is conscious that doesn't mean he will know necessarily that he is conscious, it requires self-consciousness for one to "see" himself.

Just think about what "awareness" and "attention" mean without thinking about consciousness. How can you be aware of something without being conscious? — khaled

Then, does consciousness = awareness ? That's the whole point of this discussion, trying to find to find when one ends - awareness - and when the other continues - consciousness. I never said awareness without consciousness, i said consciousness with extremely limited awareness - "without awareness".

Other concepts like this include "line" or "number". You can't define them to someone who doesn't already know them. All you're doing when defining them is assigning an already present meaning to a word. — khaled

Line = A geometrical object that is straight, relative to 2D plan, infinitely long and infinitely thin.
Number = Numbers are strings of digits used to indicate magnitude. Abstract values given to quantities.

I see your point, since the basis of our languages is the "real world", we must see something to grasp it fully, but that doesn't mean one can't comprehend something only by definitions. A blind person cannot see but can still comprehend what colors are - EM waves. If you understand what a quantity is, then you can create abstract symbols to represent - abstractly - those quantities, there you go ! You have what we can call numbers.

How would it have qualitative experiences if it's not aware? — Terrapin Station

Imagine you watch a great movie, you are so in it that you lose your sens of self, you lose your awareness of yourself. Same principle, imagine an AI having some qualitative experiences but doesn't have any mental capacity to be aware of it .. can't have realization, perception, or knowledge.

Well if a newborn baby have consciousness, maybe is something that actually happens since the cognitive abilities, perception and knowledge of a baby is very low.

How would AI have a qualitative experience of something if it's not conscious? — Terrapin Station

I am not talking about consciousness but about awareness, trying to find when one ends and when the other continue. AI have qualitative experience but it's not aware.

Thx for all your replies !

It’s common to restrict the definition of consciousness only to those who are self-conscious, but if this is really what consciousness is, then I wonder: why have the distinct term ‘self-consciousness’ In the first place? — Possibility

The only way i know i am conscious is by being self-conscious, i can "see" myself therefore i know i am here, existing.
That being said and as you said it, it's common to restrict the definition of consciousness to self-consciousness. I remember when i was very young having qualitative experiences without being self-conscious of having that experiences. When something grab our attention so well - like a game, book, movie, sport .. - that we temporally lose our self-consciousness, does that mean we were not conscious all that time ? Ofcs not! Consciousness precede self-consciousnesses but by being self-conscious is the only way i know that i am conscious.

I’m not sure what you’re trying to describe here. I imagine it’s like being affected by an experience, without being aware of what it was within the experience that affected you...? — Possibility

If "I" loses its meaning then what does the experiencing? I think what you are talking about is the difference between being self-aware, or self-conscious, and being aware of everything else. You turn your awareness back on itself and in doing so, you become self-aware. — Harry Hindu

You'd have to try to give an example of how you think that's possible. — Terrapin Station

I was trying to differentiate conscious activities - experience/qualia - and awareness of that activities. Awareness was defined above as "Having or showing realization, perception, or knowledge" so i was thinking that someone could have qualitative experiences and at the same time not realizing what is happening ,not knowing what is all about and not having perception .. not being aware.
* Perception = organization, identification, and interpretation of sensory information in order to represent and understand the presented information, or the environment. - Wiki.

Imagine we understand what consciousness really is and how it works, then we proceed to create a artificial life form with our understanding. As we build we realize we don't have enough money to build it like we wanted so we chose to decrease dramatically the cognitive abilities, the memory storage and the capacity of our AI to form a new structures.
Once we finished, we decide to study it, by various tests, to see how our AI work. As we test our AI we remark that it can't realize what is happening due to very low cognitive abilities, it cannot form enough knowledge too bcs of very low memory storage, and bcs of low capacity of forming new structures it perceive - organization of sensory inputs - very little about the world. Our AI experience - the rough sensory inputs - without realization of experiencing and without realization of oneself identity, our AI is not aware - at least by the definition above.
Ofcs is an imagined scenario, maybe what we call consciousness need some good level of cognitive abilities, memory, perception and maybe more ..

If "I" loses its meaning then what does the experiencing? — Harry Hindu

Well if there is experience - Qualia - there must be a subject who is experiencing but that doesn't mean the subject know itself, know it experience. The "I" lose it's meaning for the subject.

- Does unconscious processing = unconscious awareness ? (e.g. in a thermostat)
- Does unconscious processing = unconscious attention ? (e.g. in a CCTV camera) — bongo fury

What your definition of Awareness and Attention ? And of unconscious processing too

Ultimately, this is really just a question of how you choose to define it. — Pantagruel

Definitely ! This the main problem of dealing with this type of questions, the definition of terms play a major role in thinking process. That's why i started my post by defining the 3 most important terms. I am fully aware the definitions i proposed are approximations of the "truth" but one must start somewhere (:

I favour a very liberal definition of consciousness. — Pantagruel

What is your definition ?

Consciousness is a direct result of ones awareness of ones self, while awareness could not truly exist without ones consciousness. — Enki B

If consciousness is a direct result of awareness, so awareness precede consciousness, how can awareness not exist without ones consciousness ? You said consciousness is needed for awareness, but at the same time, awareness precede consciousness, i do not understand how..

Consciousness seems to be ones awareness of existence — Enki B

So Consciousness is one type/form of awareness ? If so, how it is that the "awareness seems to be more about learning or knowing what surrounds ones consciousness." if the consciousness is just one form/type of awareness ?

Being asleep is another form of consciousness — Enki B

When i talk about sleeping i meant a Non-REM sleep. During that period i can't tell if i am aware, i can't tell if i am conscious too bcs the only way i can tell i am conscious right now is by being aware of the world, by experiencing it,by knowledge/memory - concept of consciousness, definition of awareness .. - and by the A priori knowledge of identity - I am experiencing the world -, otherwise i can't affirm i am conscious.

Thx for your reply :)