They may not be physicalist in regards to how they label themselves, but they quickly become such when it comes to biology and the nature of life, where all of a sudden everything perceived by the mind is still there (hiding in genes or neurons somewhere) and the mind is gone. What exactly is a brain without the mind?

As I said, I doubt that anyone holds such a naive few — Wosret

Actually, I think most people hold this view, that there is a cup out there independent of the mind.

That cup is certainly real, as your mind perceives it.

Problems only arise when a non-mind mind is inserted into a discussion as a placeholder in a direct attempt to remove mind from the equation.

However, one wishes too speculate about what is "out there" it ultimately comes down to the speculation of a mind. It is impossible to discuss it as if there is some independent object and labeled as such (a teacup?) just swimming in the universe without acknowledging that it is a creation of the mind. Outside of this, it is simply unknown and no label can be applied.

In this manner, the mind now becomes permanently entangled in every discussion, as it should be since it is the source. I just want to make clear that there is no "cup" floating somewhere out there that is magically being imprinted in some brain cells.

"Quantum state" is a higher level abstraction than just an experiential cup is. "Quantum state" may be more spooky, and interesting, because it lends itself to more mystery than cups do, but I don't think that it's more real than a cup is, because it's further removed from experience than a generalized cup is. — Wosret

Quantum state is the limits to which we can describe anything that has not been observed. We can speculate as to what it is (I speculate it it's a hologram of some sort) but we cannot say, it is impossible to say, that what is there, unobserved, is a "teacup". It it's not. It is totally unknown as is what happens after death and how "it all began".

That the cup is in the cupboard when no one is looking, or around, or knows about it even, because the world exists independently of subjects, not that perception exists independently of perceives. — Wosret

There is something there. It is called a quantum state. What that may be independent of any observer if any sort (an ant or a human) is entirely inaccessible. This is when the so-called third-non-person comes in handy for some. It inserts a a non-human as an observer with all the attributes of an observer. This sleight of hand is used all the time when a human mind is needed but a human mind is unwanted.

There is a third person, which is precisely the person that isn't there — Wosret

But there is always a person. Problems arise when someone insists on an object existing apart from b some human observation. It doesn't. It is the human mind (and other minds) that morphs a quantum state into what humans recognize as an object. Without the human mind, what exists is a quantum state, that is simply unknown.

Haven't some of them been debunked? — Michael Ossipoff

I think that it would be difficult to debunk but it would also be difficult to verify. I think it is more likely that children will remember because adult social patterns tend to force a denial of any such memory sense.

What an suggesting is that it is a area worth investigating. So much can be explained with such a new paradigm. Everything seems to fit. Anyway, I hope some young, brave, creative group of philosophers who want to do more in their life than proving with logic that there is no free will, will be motivated to start delving deeply into this fascinating possibility.

Today I was watching Superhuman and the neurologist was called in to explain the extraordinary memory of one contestant. This was the analysis:

1) First he had to store it.

2) Then he had to recall it.

3) It's really complicated.

Not bad after billions upon billions of dollars of research dollars. I guess the big news for me was that it is complicated.

Even those people don't remember a previous life. — Michael Ossipoff

Memory in the form of instincts, inherited traits and abilities is remembering. What you are saying that it's that people don't seem to remember past physical lives, but apparently some claim that they do. We x even can't remember in most cases even what happens in one physical life.

It's only controversial to those that aren't educated in modern theories of neurology. — Harry Hindu

No doubt such education greatly benefits the medical industry, which now consumes 20% of the GNP.

We are machines and the medical machine will fix our machine, for a price. What a racket.

Yes. Some of the mass conformity is practical (e.g. basic math), but most of it is to advance some ideology that economically benefits some group. They want robots, and there are lots of teachers who are quite willing to press this theme to keep their jobs.

I agree with you. The good news is that you can, after graduation, set up a very decent practice, assisting individuals who are seeking assistance, utilizing natural, noon-invasive modalities, that ultimately assist the individual in change rather them making them druggies.

Granted, you still have to stomach those distasteful courses, and will probably have disagreements with your professors, (as I did), but grades are not meaningful in life and careers. What is meaningful is being true to yourself and those professional relationships that you enter into.

Good luck with your decision!

What is the goal of giving grades in school? — Meta

The goal is to get everyone thinking in the same way. It suppresses creativity to achieve conformity.

No it isn't. Nothing in being the President logically entails that one won the most electoral college votes. Having won the most electoral college votes isn't part of the meaning of being the President. — Michael

It has nothing to do with logic or necessarily facts.

The State election boards declared certain results (which can and has been disputed) which entailed Trump being declared and recognized as President which was then accepted (reluctantly in many cases) by citizens and the legislative and judicial branches of government. It was a formed consensus which is all entangled with lots of other events.

I wish logic would just go away. It has nothing to do with life as we experience it.

Is it reasonable to suppose that something not being looked at looks like something? — unenlightened

We have no idea what something might be without being observed. This is a holographic plate of apple. It needs a reconstructive wave to create the image.

so what? hurry up and get the ideas into your computer that will stop you acting like a child — PeterPants

If you want to play the "we are computers game" and have no choice, then play it. You have others who will gladly play it with you, only guys like Dawkins get paid lots of money to perpetuate the game.

Remember, I have no choice.

There i

It would remain true even if god did not see it.

Perspective is removed in the third person account. — Banno

Suppose that an object that is not being observed by a mind is simply in a quantum state and looks like this. Is it still a teacup? With quantum physics there is no removing the observer. There is no way to talk about anything without an observer.

I really don't understand why you would want to make yourself look so silly.. — PeterPants

I have no choice.

Let Determinism Law's will be done. Sorry, it is out of my hands. I have no choice.

You are suggesting I have a choice in the matter?

I don't have to prove anything. For me determinism is just a substitution for God for atheists, and I have no need to believe my life is controlled by some outside supernatural forces. You can believe as you wish. As I've already said, it is it of no matter to me.

prove it. — PeterPants

??????? You at the one saying all actions are determined. Go ahead and start enumerating all of the laws that do this.

Zero. It it's impossible to predict human actions. The reason is choice and will.

There is zero logic in determinism, zero evidence, and what's more it explains nothing. It is nothing more than a desire by someone to have something directing their life. Religious people might call it God. Atheists call it Determinism.

As for me, I make choices.

Ok, now you are saying there is no choice.

It's OK. If you want to believe you are a pre-programmed computer, it is no skin off my teeth.

determinism is a law, — PeterPants

No such animal. It is a concoction of the creative mind to replace the word God.

When you discover the law that created this conversation, give me a ring.

did the robot or did the robot not, choose to move the blue cube into the blue crate? — PeterPants

The robot didn't choose. It was programmed to do it. It has no choice. If it had a choice, there would be complete havoc in the warehouse.

determine choice — PeterPants

No such animal. You can't have your cake and eat it simply by stringing two words together.

But you are not the first to try. Lots of people want their called and eat it. They want everything to be determined (it is a desire) but then they have deal with the problem that it has nothing to do with life as we experience it. Just look at our conversation. What kind of cockamamie deterministic laws would create such a conversation.

indeed a 'person' can decide to go left or right, im in no way saying they cant. — PeterPants

If you are saying this, then the person is making a choice.

what im saying is that its their brain that does the deciding, — PeterPants

I prefer to say the mind is making a choice, but no matter, a choice is being made.

The rest I'll skip, because it isn't relevant for discussion at this time. The point is a choice is being made. If there is a choice, there is no determinism.

im saying that the belief that a person could do different things given the EXACT situation, — PeterPants

Of course a person can. A person can decide to go left or right. A person then does it utilizing internal energy, which is why we have internal energy to move in the direction we choose.

What is strange is the idea that since deterministic set of laws would so proceed as to concoct a universe where everyone is tricked into an illusion of no choice, except those who know that there is no choice, and for some reason these deterministic laws start unveiling the illusion.

Well if the computer brains aren't deterministic and have choice then I guess we all are responsible for our actions and the parlor game is over.

what exactly is upsetting your computer? — PeterPants

It's like this. All the computers know that they are computers, so why the heck did your computer feel it was necessary to write the post?

You think my computer has a choice? Well my computer is just darn heck upset that your computer broke the illusion. Oh, well, have your computer take it up with mine. It's out if my control.

Anyway, you should really try to actually understand what people are saying before you start acting like a child and teasing them. — PeterPants

Does not compute. Does not compute. Are you actually holding me responsible for my choice??

Nope. All the brain computers have worked liked the dickens to create the illusion and unfortunately yours went rogue.

How could punishment act as a deterrent if people don't have freedom to choose? — Metaphysician Undercover

It's an illusion but now it's all out in the open. The fun is all gone. I'm kind of miffed (from a computer point of view) that the illusion is now gone. I think the PeterPants computer is buggy and has gone rogue.

No problem. My computerized brain (it is taking the liberty to reveal itself right here in the open, for the first time ever), it's wondering why your computerized brain its writing the post? Both computers know there is no choice so why spoil the illusion that we (us computers) have been working so hard to create? Now it's all out in the open and my computer is frankly a bit upset.

In that life, as hypothetical as your previous one, there’s no memory or indication that there was ever a different life. — Michael Ossipoff

There is memory. It is called inherited, innate, instinctual traits or unaccountable skills (idiot savants, prodigies, etc.).

there is of course still a necessity for punishment as a deterrent — PeterPants

Well, it isn't really up to you or anyone else is it? There is no choice.

I realize your computer is writing your post, but my computer is wondering why is your computer even bothering. It thinks your computer is buggy so it is forcing me to write this message.

I think (sorry, I mean my computer thinks) determinism makes for a great parlor game

And, for some inexplicable supernatural, magical reason, individuals that have more offspring are better-represented in the population. — Michael Ossipoff

Yes, for some inexplicable supernatural, magical reason, individuals that survive long enough to reproduce seem to have more offspring. :D — Michael Ossipoff

Huh? You believe this? There is not a scintilla of evidence from any source to support any of this. It's a story. It's a story that people who are alive love to hear, i.e. that they are the Selected Ones. It's an age old story that any victorious nation loves to hear and repeat.

...and their heritable attributes and traits are better represented in the population. — Michael Ossipoff

And thus the Selected Superior Race survives.

It's a grade school story that sticks because it is what people want to hear. No different from God's Chosen Ones. And this passes off for science for atheists who do not have God but do have Natural Selection.

When selections pressures produced a brain, — Harry Hindu

There is always magic in science's explanation for mind. This the magic:

Some supernatural force called Selection (which is apparently obsessed with surviving) creates the brain and then Out Pops the Mind from the brain.

Every single concept that science pulls out of its hat (including an infinite number of superimposed quantum universes in order to save determinism) is conceived fo one and only one purpose: to dehumanize humans (and in the process humanizing supernatural forces) and make them into machines. Why? Because science wants carte blanche in playing with humans, as if they are some dumb toys indistinguishable from a Sony PlayStation, and "fixing them" .