prove it.. i say the reason could just be complexity and chaos.

your basically saying we CANT predict human actions and that its fundamentally impossible.

all im saying is that hey, maybe we can, i dont see any evidence that we cant. yours is a god of the gaps argument;
"well, we cant explain this bit currently, therefore, freewill"

prove it. — PeterPants

??????? You at the one saying all actions are determined. Go ahead and start enumerating all of the laws that do this.

Im not saying all actions are determined, im saying all the evidence we have so far suggests they are. i dont rule out the possibility that they are not, but everyone seems to assume they are not.

If you think determinism is wrong, prove it.
im not claiming its right or wrong, just pointing out that there is no evidence of free will.

I don't have to prove anything. For me determinism is just a substitution for God for atheists, and I have no need to believe my life is controlled by some outside supernatural forces. You can believe as you wish. As I've already said, it is it of no matter to me.

Perhaps it will help if i retern to my original point, and come from a more pragmatic angle..

so, im inventing a sadistic murderer, his name is Bob. say hi to Bob.

So, Bob brutally murders a child, delighting in their pain, later, we find he has a massive tumor in his brain, and it perfectly explains his sadistic nature, we remove the tumor and he is a perfectly kind, healthy happy and balanced person.
I think its safe to assume that basically everyone agrees Bob was not really responsible for his actions, even if the moral thing to do would be to take responsibility for his actions.


now, instead consider if a person is simply born with a messed up brain, no tumor, but they are violent and sadistic, they cant help it they were just born that way. How is it different? imagine we had the technology to fix the persons brain... would that not totally tear down any conviction that the person is personally responsible for who they are?

my argument is jsut that everything is a tumor, everything that happens has its role to play in who and what we are, and we dont have control over any of it, we are the product of chance and should be treated as such.

I wouldn't judge a murderer anymore then i would judge someone with autism for their differences. i would certainly stop them from doing bad things though.

ok, no worries, you go ahead and live in your little fantasy world, i dont know why your on a philosophy forum if your not interesting in talking about the true nature of things.

determinism at the scale of human thought is what the evidence of reality shows us is real. non-determinism in how our minds function is an illusion, or maybe in your case, a fantasy.

But i do think your view of atheists is ridiculous and bigoted (especially since you seem to be one). ive never met ANYONE who took solace in the idea of determinism, in fact everyone seems to hate it, atheists and theists alike, so your belief that its a tool used by atheists to feel better seems perfectly deranged to me. a fantasy, a tool to make yourself feel better and dismiss people and ideas from outside your worldview. i might be wrong of course :P

I dont take comfort from it at all, not in my personal life anyway. but, a lack of free will does wonders to your outlook on life, people are not bad, they are sick. while goodness, love, compassion are entirely untouched.

You are suggesting I have a choice in the matter?

nope. my arguments will either convince you or they wont, if you interact with me in a more open minded way, if you try to actually understand what im saying, then your mind might be changed, but based on our conversation so far, im starting to doubt it a little. still, id like to try, i think its a fascinating and useful realization.

Let Determinism Law's will be done. Sorry, it is out of my hands. I have no choice.

ah huh... well done.

"Sorry, it is out of my hands. I have no choice."

yes, sarcastically stating my argument, is not itself an argument. Its what children who have no argument do..
I really don't understand why you would want to make yourself look so silly..

I really don't understand why you would want to make yourself look so silly.. — PeterPants

I have no choice.

so what? hurry up and get the ideas into your computer that will stop you acting like a child. :P

i was not actually claiming that we 'should' act responsibly, what i was claiming was that if we want a productive society that enables the well being of its proponents, then we ought to take responsibility for what our own brains end up doing. they are after all OUR brains. — PeterPants

OK, so my point is, that since we are not responsible, what makes you think that we would want a productive society? Doesn't wanting a productive society only come about as the result of a person being responsible? You reverse this, and say that the irresponsible person ought to want to be responsible. But how is this capacity for a person to want to change what oneself is, supposed to exist in this determinist world you describe? Furthermore, you've already described it as impossible for a person to change what oneself is, so how could such a want be in any way productive? If the person is irresponsible, and cannot change oneself to become responsible, then to want such a thing is just a fruitless, frustrating desire which cannot be satisfied.

so what? hurry up and get the ideas into your computer that will stop you acting like a child — PeterPants

If you want to play the "we are computers game" and have no choice, then play it. You have others who will gladly play it with you, only guys like Dawkins get paid lots of money to perpetuate the game.

Remember, I have no choice.

OK, so my point is, that since we are not responsible, what makes you think that we would want a productive society? — Metaphysician Undercover

For the same reasons (and many more) that a computer opens word when you double click the word icon. because we are programed to understand out environment to some degree.. not a great one generally. but we've come a long way aye?

Doesn't wanting a productive society only come about as the result of a person being responsible? — Metaphysician Undercover

Yes, thats precisely what i said, for pragmatic reasons we do need to act personally responsible, because our attention can hardly benefit other people as directly as ourselves. While our actions, beliefs, thoughts etc, may be determined, they obviously still interact with reality.

You reverse this, and say that the irresponsible person ought to want to be responsible. — Metaphysician Undercover

What? no i absolutely do not say that at all. this and the rest of your post don't really connect with my beliefs at all.

Furthermore, you've already described it as impossible for a person to change what oneself is — Metaphysician Undercover

Like this? what is this? where did that come from?
I certainly never said anything of the sort.