Since I'm an introvert and a loner, I have no interest in a structured religion, old or new*1. And not much need for the "peace & security" of belonging to a unified group of people : sect or social system. I guess you could say that Philosophy is my solo religion ; but it offers no final answers, and little existential comfort. In lieu of a biblical or tribal religion I have developed my own personal worldview*2, based partly on Holism, Information theory, and Quantum physics. No rules or rituals, wines or ganja, candles or incense, priests or preachers . . . . just a better understanding of why the world is the way it is. :halo:From my perspective, there is a new religion popping up, based on Holism and human consciousness. A religion that would be about as good as any religion we have (or had). — Pieter R van Wyk
Gnomon is not a professional Logician, or Mathematician, or Systems theorist. Just an amateur philosophical scrivener. So the general (non-technical) concept of Holism is sufficient for my needs, to make sense of complex physical & philosophical systems.The possibility exist that Gnomon's notion of a system as a holism might be the key to such a theory - but I doubt that. You see: "To bear Systems Theory in mind one should envision some sort of logical and mathematical basis as a formal unambiguous language." — Pieter R van Wyk
I probably missed the point of the OP. But the subsequent clarifications only muddied the water for me.So the OP was about the limits of the efficacy of the mechanistic mindset. The complaint was that because it seemed a severely limited view of Nature in practice, one might as well give up on the very idea of believing in “causality”. — apokrisis
Collingwood's abstruse concept is over my untrained head. I simply construe the term to mean that the conclusions follow logically from the premises. But the path of reasoning can be traced from Top-Down or from Bottom-Up, and can be evaluated as Statistical (permanent pattern) or Intentional (aimed at future state). :smile:In that simplistic dichotomy, where is the "logical efficacy" of the OP? Is it in the "top-down constraints" or the "bottom-up degrees of freedom". Is it the top-down logical or intentional efficacy that the OP was arguing against? :smile: — Gnomon
This is not what Collingwood meant by logical efficacy. — T Clark
True. Billiard balls are causal, but not self-causal. So what is the initial cause of their motion? Does the cue ball initiate the aim & activity on the table? Or does the chain of causation link back to an intentional*1 Prime Cause, with the mental goal of moving all balls into pockets?The fact that humans engage in intentional behavior implies only that some causation is the product of intent. Not that all causation is. — Relativist
In that simplistic dichotomy, where is the "logical efficacy" of the OP? Is it in the "top-down constraints" or the "bottom-up degrees of freedom". Is it the top-down logical or intentional efficacy that the OP was arguing against? :smile:I would suggest that what we call an accident is the opposite of what we call a necessity. So the more fundamental dichotomy is chance and necessity. Or what in the systems view is the top down constraints and the bottom up degrees of freedom. — apokrisis
My claim is that there are only a limited number of situations where it has Collingwood’s logical efficacy. — T Clark
I choose to believe that, for the calculations of Physics, intention may be irrelevant. But for the purposes of Philosophy, intention is essential. For example, a pool table with neatly stacked balls is static & causeless, until the intentional act (first cause) of the shooter inputs both Energy (causation) and Direction (intention) into the frozen tableau*1. All subsequent causation -- bouncing balls -- is indeed mechanical & purposeless . But physical causation is of little interest to a philosopher*2, whose focus is on logical causation*3. :smile:Causation without Intent is what we call Accident. — Gnomon
That may be what YOU call it. I just call it causation. You can choose to believe there is intent involved in all causation, but you cannot possibly show that causation requires it. — Relativist
Yes, Causation without Intent is what we call Accident. And the distinction is crucial in philosophy & science, but typically taken for granted. Unfortunately, Quantum Physics*1 has undermined the simple Certainty of Newton's physics/metaphysics, in which all events were intentionally caused by God. When you take God or Logos (reason ; intent) out of the equation things quickly get messy : like a half-alive cat in a box*2.Yes, the whole distinction between events that are intentional versus those that are not seems to complicate all of the discussions I’ve looked at. As I noted earlier, that’s why I avoided the whole subject of human causation. That doesn’t mean none of the issues discussed in this thread is relevant. — T Clark
As I mentioned above, taken together, these characteristics of systems seem to add-up to a Creator God as the System-of-all-systems. Hence our space-time world is a sub-system of the Set-of-all-sets. In the abstract, this list could apply to A> the God of Abraham, Isaac & Jacob, or B> Hindu Brahman, or C> Spinoza's deus sive natura. Was that your intention? :smile:From the fundamental definition of a system, it is possible to identify seven fundamental classes of systems:
Class 1 - with foundational existence
Class 2 - capable of decision-making
Class 3 - capable of survival
Class 4 - capable of communicating
Class 5 - capable of reasoning
Class 6 - capable of creating
Class 7 - capable of abstraction — Pieter R van Wyk
A. By "kind of system" I mean an organization*1 with a particular logical-or-physical, structure-or-function-or-purpose, that can be distinguished from an ordered pattern with a different structure or purpose.OK. Now we have narrowed-down the kind of Systems this thread is about. — Gnomon
I am not sure what you are trying to say here:
When you refer to "kind of systems", are you referring to my, defined, classes of systems or something else?
I do not know what you mean, exactly, by a "sub-system"?
It just might be interesting to view the full canvas. — Pieter R van Wyk
Speaking of the distinction between a Created vs Constructed world, Dan Brown's new mystery/thriller, Secret of Secrets --- I'm almost to the halfway point --- hinges on the competition between Materialistic and Noetic worldviews.↪Gnomon
In Western metaphysics, ‘creation’ has a specific status, reserved for the Creator (‘creature’ meaning ‘created being’). It is of course used more broadly nowadays, for all manner of creative work, but it still retains some overtones, in the philosophical context. But I’m not going to retroactively update it. Besides, ‘mind-constructed world’ just doesn’t have a ring to it. — Wayfarer
OK. Now we have narrowed-down the kind of Systems this thread is about. As far as we know, only physical biological beings*1 are capable of abstracting Ideas from concrete Reality. And only one of those physical sub-Systems has the capability to communicate their intangible ideas in the form of meaningful symbols : e.g. auditory or visual Words. The jury is still out on parrots & dolphins, which apparently can produce two-way communication to some degree. Even dogs can understand a few words of spoken language, but can't reciprocate except via body language, including barking and button-pushing .all systems are physical systems, but there exist systems with the capability of abstraction.
Moreover, this classification provides a theory of evolution sans any tautologies. — Pieter R van Wyk
Now we're getting somewhere : a definition of "System" that may be relevant to the covert purpose of this thread. Example : A System is a collection of things designed for a specific purpose or function*1. Question : designed (created?) by Accident or Intention? Or, in the case of universals*2, not designed, nor contingent, but eternal & self-existent, like Plato's Form. But is the Purpose/Function top-down intentional, or bottom-up inferred, or both? :chin:A system consist of components (things that are) and the interactions between these components (things that happen) contributing to a single unique purpose. p27, p135 — Pieter R van Wyk
Traditionally, "The Universal System" has been labeled God, or some variation like Brahman (ultimate, unchanging, and infinite reality) . But is that unique set-of-all-things Real (tangible) or Ideal (conceptual) ; Quanta or Qualia ; Immanent or Transcendent? Spinoza and Smuts*3 identified the "one and only one" System with the immanent Universe or Nature. But the Big Bang theory has raised the question of some prior or higher Set or System. Alas, Multiverse & Many Worlds systems seem to water-down the notion of uniqueness. :smile:There is one, and only one, system that is not a component of any other system. Named the Universal system — Pieter R van Wyk
Unfortunately, what you are talking about may be clear in your own mind, but it's not clear to my simple mind. That's why I asked categorical questions in my previous post. Philosophical dialogues typically begin with controversial assertions, and followed with definitions & examples to support some generalization that is not generally accepted.In the OP and subsequent posts, I think I’ve made it reasonably clear what I’m talking about when I say “causality.” — T Clark
So, you agree that the seemingly haphazard stack of irregularly shaped rocks is a "system", in the sense that it was produced, not by Nature, nor by mountain goats, but by a sentient agent with a future purpose in mind : navigation aid or abstract art???This will depend on a possible purpose, not so? In my younger days I did some mountaineering, we used stacked rocks (like your picture) to mark a road, thus it was part of a navigation system. Your picture though, looks like a piece of art (A deliberate transformation of the feelings and emotions of the artist [the life form making the art], into a physical form. p96) — Pieter R van Wyk
As with many, if not most, disagreements on this forum, the controversy hinges on the definition of key terms. For example, Aristotle's Four Causes include A> mechanistic sequences that show no local signs of intention (Material cause), and B> before/after relationships that are attributed, by scientists, to inputs of energy (Efficient cause), plus C> what exists/happens by definition (Formal cause) : it just is what it is. But perhaps the most contentious, although common, kind of Cause is D> the result of some agent's Intention/Reason (Final cause). Are you denying all of those kinds of Causation, or just one or two?OK, how would you describe "changes in energy", while avoiding the notion of Causation? — Gnomon
In the OP I've given specific examples of situations where changes take place but it is not useful to use the term "causality." Many people here have disagreed with my characterization. — T Clark
Perhaps, to retain an air of mystery, you have avoided defining the key term in your thread*1. But you seem to have in mind a simplistic concept of a system : like the game Jenga, where players try to avoid removing the essential part of a stack of static wooden blocks. That's a simple gravitation system.We speak of the solar system.
We{you} cannot agree on what, exactly, is a system.
We {?} make the absurd postulate that one planet could be removed from the solar system.
This could tell us whether the solar system is in fact a system. — Pieter R van Wyk
OK, how would you describe "changes in energy", while avoiding the notion of Causation? Einstein noted that Energy can be mathematically transformed into Mass/Matter (E=MC^2). But what is the Cause of that form-change? Is it just random fluctuations of Quantum Fields? Hence acausal? Or is it scientists just playing around : smashing atoms with a Cyclotron, to see what pops out?the primary Cause for physical science is Energy. — Gnomon
That doesn’t make sense to me.All there is is energy. Matter is energy. It’s changes in energy that need a causal description. — T Clark
Yes. intermediate causes*4 are arbitrary & subjective. That's why Aristotle coined the term First Cause, which is a logical necessity, like the final number on the number line, not a physical object. The Big Bang is one kind of First Cause, but it didn't put to rest philosophical conjectures about prior causes. Divine Creation is another kind of Cause. So, Causation is a useful concept for Science and Philosophy, but as you noted, it is unavoidable, metaphysical, and non-empirical. So, we can debate til the cows come home. :joke:My conclusion - identifying one element as the cause of another depends on where you look. — T Clark
Yes. For example, if a message-in-a-bottle is sent but never read, the information remains potential, not actual. This works just like Energy. If a bullet is fired, but never hits its target, the Kinetic energy is "stored" in the form of Momentum. So the energy remains in limbo as Potential, in the sense that it is never Actualized as impact transfer of energy to a target. Of course, this is an imperfect analogy, since a bullet in motion almost always hits some object to which it transfers its inertial energy, causing material change . . . . except perhaps in outer space. :wink:Argh! My last word was a mistake. I meant to say:
Are you saying actual information is information that is being processed? If it is not being processed, it is potential information? — Patterner
Like the bullet in outer space, un-interpreted Information remains in its Potential state, in the form of "raw data". You can think of data as meaningless mathematical information, until someone interprets the code into human meaning. :smile:So information that had to be created (as opposed to the information in a book) is never even interpreted. — Patterner
Yes. That's why we debate various kinds of Causes on this forum. For example, the primary Cause for physical science is Energy. Which can be defined tautologically (it is what it does), but can't be defined physically or materially (what it's made of). A Cause is some invisible force that has a knowable Effect.As I've often said here, "causality" is a metaphysical concept, by which I mean it represents a point of view, a perspective, not a fact. — T Clark
Something like that. When Shannon produced his definition of Information as computer Data, I assume he had no idea that his novel equation of Information and math (1s & 0s ; relations ; ratios) or Information and Entropy (active ; passive) would eventually lead scientists to view Energy from a similar perspective. They are not the same thing*1, but different forms of a more fundamental causal force that I call EnFormAction*2.↪Gnomon
Are you saying actual information is information that is being processed? If it is not being processed, it is potential energy? — Patterner
Please note that, in the last paragraph, I referred to metaphysical*1 (-isms), that are not necessarily religions. For example, on this forum, we often find contentious arguments about metaphysical beliefs, such as Realism vs Idealism, Materialism vs Spiritualism, or Scientism vs Philosophy.Ironically, that swampy quicksand logic allows people of Faith to claim that their metaphysical "reasons" & divine revelations are just as valid as a scientist's physical-empirical Facts & Faxioms. — Gnomon
I don't see how the kinds of issues I'm talking about have anything to do with religion. — T Clark
Oh yes. Just like fossilized bones, ancient DNA can provide clues to modern forms. But the cavemen are still dead and dissipated. Whatever information remains is in the fossilized patterns of preserved tissues. For example, paleontologists can estimate the size & shape of an absent Neander brain, by measuring the empty skull. As I said before, Information, like languages, comes in many forms. But the meaning must be interpreted by a living functioning brain. :smile:Information in a dead organism has been transformed into Entropy (dissipated Energy). — Gnomon
Doesn't the fact that people have sequenced Neanderthal DNA, among other groups, say it is still information? — Patterner
Was that controversial key-word a Freudian slip, or intentional challenge, to keep this thread going in circles for 70 pages? :wink:I acnowledge that the word 'created' might be a poor choice of words in the context. — Wayfarer
Yes. For philosophers "causality" is a metaphysical notion, whereas for physicists it's a practical principle, to aid in understanding how & why things happen. Traditionally, human Logic assumes, as an unproven axiom*1, that every action or event had a prior causal influence, and that causal action in the universe is an unbroken chain (conjunction) of physical cause/effect events. Except of course, for those who believe in metaphysical causes, such as divine intervention or random accidents (disjunction).As I've often said here, "causality" is a metaphysical concept, by which I mean it represents a point of view, a perspective, not a fact. As R.G. Collingwood might say, the Principle of Sufficient Reason - everything must have a reason or a cause - is an absolute presupposition, not a proposition. — T Clark
Those are good questions, in that they indicate ignorance of what Information is, essentially*1. Which could be a learning opportunity. Prior to Shannon, the definition of Information referred to "knowledge" (meaning ; facts) in a mind. Information is always a reference to some thing or event : Aboutness*2.Yes, it's always Information, but it comes in different Forms. — Gnomon
What is the form of there information in the DNA of a dead organism? What is the form of there information in a book that is sitting in a box in the basement? — Patterner
Yes, it's always Information, but it comes in different Forms. Just as Energy manifests as Chemical, Electrical, Kinetic, Thermal, Potential, etc. The form of "Information" most familiar before Shannon was metaphysical Meaning in a Mind. But, he stripped away the meaning, leaving only abstract 1s & 0s, that can be mechanically represented by electric valences (+/-).I don't understand what you're saying. Particularly "the verbal Information". I don't know if you're answering my question. Is the order of the bases in the DNA of a dead body, or written in a book that is sitting in a box in the basement, information?
I think it's always information. I don't think it only becomes information when it is being processed, or being interpreted by a mind. — Patterner
Ha! I'm not that clever with computer technology, but I can copy & paste. :nerd:First of all, I suspect you are a hacker, because I have never seen Gnomon post without footnotes. :rofl: — Patterner
DNA is chemistry, and it is inert until it is read & implemented by a biological system. The information is encoded in the patterns of interrelationships.I think I disagree. I believe DNA is information. — Patterner
Is anyone on this forum capable of understanding your work? Have you found an "astute reader" elsewhere? If so, how do they answer your challenge : "what is a system?" Has anyone found a "fatal error" in your reasoning?Thus, AI is incapable to understand my work. I am still hoping to find an "astute reader", capable of abstract thought and who subscribe to Leonardo da Vinci's dictum, "Anyone who conducts an argument by appealing to authority is not using his intelligence; he is just using memory." — Pieter R van Wyk
True. Information is a verb, not a noun, a process, not an object. It's what I like to call EnFormAction : the power to transform from Potential to Actual. Shannon's abstract Data has potential, but no actual meaning, until it is interpreted by a Mind. :smile:Further still: information is not transmitted. Since there is nothing contained anywhere that passes from an interpreted to an interpreter, and since what we have are transcription effects (i.e. con-formation in-formation) there is no entity, no substance called information. — JuanZu
My purpose is clearly stated in my question, nothing more, nothing less. And, it would seem, I got me an answer. — Pieter R van Wyk
To describe cosmic reality with a "single system" might require omniscience. But that hasn't stopped ambitious philosophers from trying*1, including yours truly. I get the impression that System Building is offensive --- arrogant, absurd, ambiguous --- to those for whom everything is relative, or for whom the universe is random instead of systematic & logical.Yes, on the face of it, describing reality with a single system does seem to be far fetched, perhaps even absurd. But then, this would depend on one's understanding of reality - an ambiguous notion it would seem - as well as one's understanding of a system - which is exactly the question contemplated by this discussion - also, it would seem, an ambiguous notion. — Pieter R van Wyk
Apparently, you didn't get a definition that suited your purposes. Perhaps, you should specify a philosophical problem or application to which you want to apply Systems Thinking*1*2. For me, Jan Smuts' definition of Holism in Evolution*3 can also be applied to various philosophical questions. :smile:Does philosophy have a definition of a system? The second question, ... or better, a general systems theory; seemed to be a bit premature for philosophy. — Pieter R van Wyk
I don't have to believe in animated-clay Golems or Paranormal Activity, or Parapsychology, in order to enjoy Dan Brown's fiction. I read fiction, in part, not to escape from reality, but merely to vicariously experience experiences that are different from our mundane existence. So, if I saw a clay-monster on the street, I'd assume it was a Comic-Con costume.I began reading Dan Brown's new novel. — Gnomon
Wow! You're on the ball; it only came out about a week ago. Has much about consciousness coming in from the outside. — PoeticUniverse
I was reaching the end & epilogue of Glattfelder's book on Postmodern Paranormal Phenomena, when I began reading Dan Brown's new novel. To my surprise, he introduced the Golem of Prague, based on Jewish folktales, as a central character. And a major theme of the book seems to be Paranormal ESP, as investigated by a Noetic scientist. The real-world Institute for Noetic Sciences was founded by former astronaut Edgar Mitchell, to study Parapsychology, among other "fringe theories".(See Dan Brown’s new book,
‘The Secret of Secrets’
For a similar investigation) — PoeticUniverse
If a "separate realm" is a physical place in space, then of course that's not where Ideas abide. But our materialistic minds find it easier to imagine subjective objects of thought as-if they are material entities in space. For example, Plato describes Ideas as Patterns, which some may interpret as patterns of neuron connections in the brain : neural correlates of consciousness. Which raises the question about those interconnected nerve fibers : how do they know?If it's not likely that there's a separate realm of ideas. Or that the idea is exactly the same as the physical matter from which it arises. Then what is it's nature? — Jack2848
I get the impression that, compared to the "beauties" of the hallucinogenic*1 Psychedelic version of "reality itself", Glattfelder finds the sober view of human social Reality to be depressing. In the Epilogue to The Sapient Cosmos, he adds a "gloomy summary of the status quo". There, he lists a litany of what's wrong with the modern world ; not so much the natural world, but the un-natural un-spiritual environment created by the materialistic mind of technological humans.But the most significant aspect was the awakening to the indescribable beauty of life itself, plants and trees seeming to possess a kind of luminous aliveness and perfection, and the sense that this sense of heightened awareness was reality itself. — Wayfarer
Me too! Glattfelder has a favorite term to describe the ambiguities & uncertainties of paranormal phenomena : Postmodern*1. He expresses some skepticism toward attempts to prove divine MIND by means of psychedelics and statistics*2. But he remains convinced that subjective Syncretic Idealism will soon be proven to be just as real, if not more, than the objective Reality of empirical Science*3*4.As for the paranormal, I’m an open-minded sceptic. — Wayfarer
Shannon's work also does not equate Information with Meaning. He was a pragmatic engineer, not a philosopher or physicist. :smile:Shanon's equations and the work following do not equate energy and information. — Banno
Yes. Made-up by professional scientists, per the (obviously un-read) links in previous post. The technical details equating Information & Energy are over my head. But the general concept makes philosophical sense, in view of the Hard Problem of Consciousness : the otherwise unexplained emergence of Animation & Awareness. Perhaps, in a cosmos full of causal events, some natural force somehow transformed Energy & Matter into Life & Mind. Do you have a better theory for the advent of homo sapiens from eons of Thermodynamics? :joke:So your post was just made-up stuff. Ok. — Banno
My equation of Information with Energy was philosophical, not physical. Of course, meaningful Information is not measured in abstract joules. But energy is manifested in various ways : thermal, nuclear, chemical, sound, electricity, gravitation, kinetic, and potential. What they all have in common is ratios & inter-relationships*1.Nor does science equate information with energy. Bits are not joules. — Banno