So, get your killing out of the way, lest someone outdoes you? — Echarmion

It's just a political reality that people aren't going to take an attack like 9/11 or 10/7 lying down. A leader who doesn't respond won't be in power long.

You have to respond because your country is being attacked.
— Hanover

Do you? Why? — Echarmion

If you don't respond, your replacement will.

Tie between Violinist Analogy and Trolley Car

NBC poll has Biden losing against Trump for first time since 2019.

And yeah, I'll say Hamas and Nazis are indeed evil in their means and ends. — schopenhauer1

There's the crux of the issue: Hamas is evil, Israel isn't. Israel can be trusted with power, Hamas can't. A world under Israeli rule would be tolerable, a world under Hamas rule would be a horrorshow.

I used to think liberals sided with Hamas because of a reflexive sympathy for the underdog, but the pro-Palestinian arguments advanced here by normally sober-minded progressives are so divorced from reality, the logic is so tortured, I'm thinking some latent antisemitism is at play.

To some extent, it seems Hamas has terrorised their population into compliance. — flannel jesus

"Palestinians in Gaza, West Bank strongly support Hamas, October 7 attack
A total of 75% of respondents agreed with the October 7 attack and 74.7% agreed that they support a single Palestinian state “from the river to the sea.”"
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791

The Israelis are like the Nazis and the Gazans are like the Jews in the Warsaw ghetto — Baden

Where do you guys come up with this stuff? German Jews were not hellbent on destroying Germany. They didn't massacre German civilians, behead German babies, and rape German women to death.

So if it's a matter of trust, I'd sooner deal with Hamas than Likud or the IDF. — Benkei

This kind of reality-denialism only shows up on the pro-Palestinian side of the debate.

Hamas are tiny and weak compared to Israel. They can never do it any significant harm. — Baden

Oct. 7th wasn't "significant harm"?

A fantastical depiction of Palestinian and Jews in one sentence. Well done. — Benkei

Except if the Palestinian people became pro-democracy and anti-Islamic terrorist, Israel would work with them. If Israel became pacifistic, and embraced right-to-return and a two-state solution, Hamas would still try to kill as many Jews as possible.

But also yes, Nazi Germany was "civilised". — Echarmion

:roll:

Your passion for being moral strikes me as a Nietzschean described tragedy where you can no longer self defend because you trouble yourself with the thought that all the world are equally lambs, so who am I to ever be a wolf? — Hanover

:100:

Germany and Japan were not civilised before 1945? — Echarmion

No. Are you claiming Nazi Germany was a civilized country? We could argue about Japan after I see your answer on this one.

Would it change your view if instead Hamas was hiding in Israel using civilians as human shields there? Should the IDF kill its own citizens to get at Hamas? — bert1

Possibly. It would have to be done very carefully and legally, though. Countries have duties to their own citizens that go way beyond duties to innocents in foreign lands.

What if Hamas was hiding in New York?

Same thing. Countries have duties to citizens in allied countries that go beyond duties to citizens in non-allied or hostile countries. Israel can be very vicious when it comes to killing terrorists. I would not put it past them to clandestinely take out an American citizen that they knew was funneling lots of money to Hamas.

Also, I wonder what kind of jamming hats people could wear to thwart it?

Yeah, I played around with it a lot when I first discovered it.

Conflicts like with the IRA were solved most likely due to a common worldview held between the opposing positions who had the power to act. I see no such common worldview present in this particular conflict and therefore no immediate way out of it. It is for future generations to try and patch up. — I like sushi

That's a good point. This is heartening:

"The 2019 Arab Youth Survey, published on Tuesday, reveals that attitudes to religion and its role in society is changing rapidly among young adults, with a more secular approach becoming increasingly appealing to 18 to 24-year-olds across the Gulf, Levant and North Africa."
https://www.thenationalnews.com/uae/arab-youth-survey-religion-too-influential-in-middle-east-say-young-people-1.855341

Unfortunately. What some people forget. Is just how the first computer was a massive, costly piece of machinery that took up the entire wall of a decent sized room. We now have them we can wear on our wrists for $50. — Outlander

There probably is a limit to how far from a person's skull the sensors can be, no matter how good they are. For example, past a certain point, radio signals from Earth become unextractable, no matter how good a radio telescope. I think that no matter how advanced the tech gets, the sensors will have to be close to the head, and there will have to be at least a couple of them.

Also, while it's true we have computers on our wrists, I don't think we're ever going to have quantum computers on our wrists, or table-top gravitational wave detectors. Some things are really hard to miniaturize, and I'm betting this is one of them.

40,000 Hamas militants who have killed some hundreds of Israelis are not Nazi Germany who had an army in the tens of millions, killed six million Jews, and took over half of Europe. Please stop talking to me. You are really not capable of intelligent conversation and I don't have any more patience for it. — Baden

Ah, so it's a question of scale, is it? What do you think Hamas would do to Israel if they were in charge of a Germany-sized country, hmmm? I think we both know the answer to that.

And I'm not comparing Hamas to Nazi's, even though I easily could. I'm establishing the fact that "good guys" can kill children in war and still be morally superior to their enemies. I will grant you that Stalinist Russia might not be all that good compared to Nazi Germany, but America and Britain were clearly morally superior to the Germans. I think you would agree with that. And they retained their moral superiority even though they did terror bombings that killed tens of thousands and had little strategic value.

But there are no "good guys" among those who would kill children in hospitals or behead them in homes. — Baden

The Allies killed untold numbers of children with indiscriminate bombing. Is your claim then that the Allies weren't morally superior to the Axis?

Maybe democracies and those who are in favor of minority rights should also be against war crimes? — Baden

I see. So Hamas gets to commit civilian atrocities, but when Israel starts bombing them while they hide behind human shields, Hamas runs to the refs and cries foul? Yeah, we livestreamed raping women to death, but what Israel's doing is a war crime!!! That's pathetic enough, but what kind of useful idiot do you have to be to go along with it?

Honestly, you are extremely confused, you think Hamas's war crimes should be punished by Israeli war crimes and the killing of civilians seems to be not just a matter of a side effect but an actual goal of the war for you. — Baden

I don't hope Palestinians get killed anymore than I would have hoped German civilians were killed in WW2. If some of those German civilians that were killed were diehard Nazi supporters, good. If some of the Palestinians killed are die-hard Hamas supporters, good. The world is better of without them. If apolitical civilians get killed, or the kids of Nazi/Hamas loyalists, it's a shame, just like it was in Japan and Germany, but that's war.

War crimes are just fine. Ok, thanks for that. Anyhow, most of the casualties are not Hamas. I don't care what happens to Hamas militants. Put them in a pit with Likud and let them all kill each other. At this point though, you honestly do not appear to be capable of making an ethical argument, so let's just part verbal company as the ethics of the situation is what I'm interested in. — Baden

I've made an ethical argument: both Israel and Hamas kill innocent people. Israel stands for democratic rule and protection of women and minorities. Hamas stands for Islamic rule and degradation of women and minorities. Therefore, we should prefer Israel wins.

Which world would you prefer to live in, Baden? It's not really a hard choice is it?
— RogueAI

I would prefer to live as far away as possible from people like you. I have met Palestinians, they're human. And I have no sympathy for Hamas who are homicidal extremists who don't give a damn about the lives of anyone including their own population. — Baden

So this is not a hard question to answer. Yes, you would prefer to live in a world where Israel is in charge. The world is a better place without Hamas in it, and if Palestinians support the Hamas attacks, the world is a better place with fewer of them too. Peoples sometimes have to be dragged into the civilized world kicking and screaming. It happened with Germany and Japan. It will happen with Palestine too. They'll eventually get tired of voting for terrorists to rule them.

To others who are less homicidal, Palestinian civilians are not Nazis, they are poor, dispossessed and a plurality are more likely to be critical of Hamas than support them. Certainly children, who represent a majority of Gaza's citizens, are not responsible for the extremist nutters who hold sway there. Wanting them dead to "teach them a lesson" is beyond reprehensible. — Baden

"Palestinians living in the Gaza Strip show a little less consensus but the overall majority supported the attack. A mass of 63.6% said that they supported the attack “extremely” or to a “somewhat” extent. A further 14.4% answered that they did not oppose or support the attack."
https://www.jpost.com/arab-israeli-conflict/article-773791


"As for bombing schools, hospitals and residential areas, no you don't get ethical carte blanche to do that, the issue of proportionality must come into play."

Sure you do. Countries don't fight wars proportionately, they fight them to win in the most efficient way possible. The Allies didn't scale their attacks down to match the Axis's dwindling militaries, nor should they have. Israel is not going to bring a knife to a gun fight. Good for them.

"The way out of this is not more bloodshed unless you are intent on killing every single Palestinian and even then you won't kill the idea that Israel deserves to be wiped out, but further foment it."

If Israel's neighbors continue to believe Israel should be wiped out, Israel should create an occupied buffer around itself so Oct. 7th can never happen again.

"Finally, anyone who wants to argue Israel has not committed war crimes in Gaza, try it and you will lose that argument."

The Allies committed war crimes bombing German and Japanese cities. The Allied commanders would have been hanged had they lost the war. So what? The Axis brought it on themselves. What did Hamas think would happen when they decided to behead babies and rape Jewish women to death? If you rape women to death and behead babies, you get what's coming to you.

Here's another thing, if you come at this from the point of view that Israeli lives are more important than Palestinian lives. — Baden

Israeli lives are more important than Palestinian lives. British lives were more important than Nazi lives, and American lives were more important than Japanese lives. War sucks. Hamas and Palestine brought it on themselves when they got in bed together. The South needed to be taught a lesson by Sherman in the Civil War and Palestinians need to be taught a lesson in this war.

There can be no other reason, because the reason "because Hamas are bad" — Baden

As I have often pointed out here, if both sides are killing civilians, as happened in WW2, it is important to look at what both sides stand for. That is to say, what kind of world would we live in should each side come to power? Israel has shown that it would create a democratic world that respects women and minorities, particularly LGBTQ peopole. Hamas would create an Islamic shithole where Muslim men are on top and everyone else is treated like crap.

Which world would you prefer to live in, Baden? It's not really a hard choice is it?

:100:

:up:

Until that happens, Hamas is simply a resistance movement that is reacting to being occupied by Israel. — Tzeentch

If mass rape and beheading of babies is Hamas's idea of "resistance" then Israel will beat the shit out of them and any peoples that choose to be governed by them. And deservedly so.

What happens when you wake up? — Ciceronianus

You become one with the godmind? I don't know for sure.

Why call it a dream, then? — Ciceronianus

Because I think it is one. I don't think non-conscious non-mental stuff can produce minds and consciousness.

I think this is all a dream, but it's a remarkably persistent and painful dream that I'm currently unable to wake up from. So I'll continue to eat dream-food and avoid dream-cars and drink dream-alcohol. I don't see anything inconsistent or hypocritical about that.

It's America's fault MidEast countries treat women and minorities like shit? How do you figure that?

Ah yes, the old “equalizer” mythology. How quaint.

Must be fun living in the Wild West. What imagination. — Mikie

There are over 300 million guns in the U.S. It's ridiculously easy for criminals to get their hands on one. Until that changes, I'm also going to have a gun, and I'm going to support other law-abiding citizens' rights to own guns.

That being said, I support restricting civilian guns to bolt-action rifles, revolvers, and shotguns, with severe penalties for anyone illegally possessing guns.

Weakness is relative, so there is no equaliser. — Echarmion

Sure there is. If I'm an elderly man, I'm weaker than a young burglar breaking into my home. However, if I have a gun, the playing field becomes much more level.

One of the tasks of living together is making sure that whoever has a physical advantage in any given situation cannot abuse that advantage.

But people do abuse the physical advantage they have over others, and the police can take awhile to show up.

Guns have no special standing here, they're just another factor to consider.

They don't have a special standing, but they do make it possible to defend my house very efficiently.

So you think the inmates at Sobibor death camp were wrong to rise up?
— RogueAI

Yes, it follows. This is an emotional argument. — FreeEmotion

If you think Nazi death camp inmates are wrong to rise up against their exterminators, I don't know what to tell you. Your moral compass is so off from mine, we probably won't agree on much.

So let me ask you, is it wrong for Hamas to kill Israeli military, like they did on October 7th? If they had confined their attacks to military targets only, then what? Would you support Hamas on that?

I would have more respect for Hamas if they only targeted soldiers, but I would still side with Israel. When Jews have power, they establish a democratic state like Israel, that respects women and LGBTQ people. When Hamas is given power, they establish a shithole.

And you think he’s going to do this in the 2028 election, even though he can’t and won’t run in 2028? Utter nonsense. — NOS4A2

"“A Massive Fraud of this type and magnitude allows for the termination of all rules, regulations, and articles, even those found in the Constitution,”"

He'll just make up some bullshit and then call for terminating the Constitution again. The authoritarian playbook for consolidating power is not hard to follow: declare an emergency, suspend whatever rules there are, and tell the people you're their only hope.

The saving grace here is that Trump will be very old, but if he's capable of reading a teleprompter, they'll certainly try and keep him in power. Even if he's in a coma, one of his toadies will try and "terminate" the 22nd amendment.

I guess then you have to ask if the support for a ceasefire is manufactured or real? — FreeEmotion

I think it's real too. Leftists have always had a soft spot for oppressed peoples, and Israel, with it's vastly superior military, can't help but come across as a bully. I can see both sides' reasoning, and they both make compelling arguments.

Any non-partisan approach would want civilians to stop getting killed. They do not care about the causes they represent, as much as some ideological stand about self- determination - which Israel has, and was achieved partly though violent means. In any case, there are Jewish people asking for a ceasefire as well.

Agreed.

I can see valid arguments for each side, however some of the starting assumptions I do not agree with, and this is a matter of personal beliefs, which are unassailable under the Charter of Human Rights.
Agree?

"Article 1
All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood."


I already see a problem here. Ukraine certainly isn't going to act in a spirit of brotherhood towards Russian soldiers (or even Russian civilians who are in the way of a high value target), nor should they.

Indeed, so the question is, is this 'manufactured consent' or real? — FreeEmotion

I think it's real. Everyone knows Jewish people. Their country is similar to ours. They don't hate women or gays. They don't revel in the slaughter of innocents. They're our allies in the fight against Islamic terrorists. Do people under 30 really understand the horror of 9/11 or how much it changed America?