:up: :up:One of the worst judgements of humankind is that humans are not objects, that they are something other than, something over and above the thing itself. I wager that no other idea has given a greater motive toward the destruction of these objects. — NOS4A2
And "the goal" of virtue ethics is flourishing (re last paragraph of my post ).I now prefer more virtue-based ethics than consequentialism ... — Jerry
I stated "the goal" is flourishing and that reason provides "grounding" of a "system" to facilitate flourishing. I said nothing about "survival", Jerry. As for why flourishing "ought" to "be the goal"? That's as silly as asking why health-fitness ought to be the goal of medicine or why sustainability ought to be the goal of social ecology.I'll just go ahead and ask, why ought this be the goal? You say the grounding for it is, from what I understand, supporting our own survival — Jerry
:fire:Against us, no other species has a chance. Against us, neither have we. — Vera Mont
Human flourishing (i.e. optimization of common agency via reduction of individual harms¹).What should be the goal of a moral system? — Jerry
Reason (i.e. performative self-consistency of reducing risks of dysfunctions¹ due to neglecting / exacerbating our species functional defects (i.e. natural vulnerabilities e.g. thirst-hunger, bereavement, insecurity, shame, mortality, confusion, etc))What is the grounding for the moral system, ...?
Habits cultivated – reinforced – through 'moral' conduct, judgments & relationships are either more adaptive (flourishing, virtuous) or more maladaptive (languishing, vicious). "Good deeds happen" because, as most socialized children learn by trial & error, they tend to work more often in social circumstances than "bad deeds".... and if we aren't obligated to do good deeds, why should good deeds happen?
They existed (flourished profusely) for "between 165 and 177 million years"! That's quite an achievement compared to h. sapiens (quasi-eusocial self-destructive mass-murderers) which have only existed for around 200 thousand years and already are knowingly on the brink of a number of self-inflicted extinctions. :mask:The dinos had between 165 and 177 million years of existence on the Earth. What did they achieve? — universeness
How do you know there is "beyond" (especially since it is "beyond" knowing)?beyond reality — Ali Hosein
Sure. Even more so it's comparable to Spinoza's substance (or Democritus-Epicurus' void)You think Plotinus' conception of the One to be comparable to Jungian collective unconscious? — Manuel
What makes a statement "truth-apt" that does not refer, even if only in principle, to at least one truth-maker? C'mon, Bob. Without indicating possible truth-makers, statements cannot be truth-claims. I think meta-statements (i.e. suppositions e.g. metaphysics) only interpret – evaluate – object-statements (i.e. propositions e.g. physics).Can a statement not be truth-apt without having a truth-maker? — Bob Ross
:up:Here's how I understand your communication:
The property of transcendence and the cognitive entity "fact" are mutually exclusive. Given this, there is and cannot be any set of transcendent facts. — ucarr
Yes, they are non sequiturs.Did you ignore my questions to you because you think them evidence of my misapprehension of your communication?
I don't share this view. To transcend a fact isn't remotely "similar" to a property or process supervening on/over a fact.Since, in my view, transcendence_supervenience are similar, ...
You've completely misread what I wrote. The argument does not refer to "transcendent T" or "transcendent F". You're objecting to a strawman, ucarr, rather than what I wrote.Regarding the first sentence of your quote, you posit the conditional that a transcendent T is coupled with a transcendent F such that they instantiate membership within TF-set. — ucarr
I'm not sure what you mean by "objectively existent" or "objectivity". Please clarify what makes this "criterion" problematic.Accordingly, 'objectively existent' is not the sole criterion for what is real. — Wayfarer
:roll: Any "manifestation of" that which "is not objectively real" is, of course, "conceivable". But are we just fantasizing, Wayf, or are we philosophizing?Is it not conceivable that the first stirrings of life, the very simplest organisms, are also the manifestation of mind?
Well, as said above, I agree that mind is not anything objectively real. — Wayfarer
I will cut adrift—I will sit on pavements and drink coffee—I will dream; I will take my mind out of its iron cage and let it swim—this fine October. — Virginia Woolf, from one of her diaries
:roll: Strawman – unless you can cite where I have actually done so.As usual, ↪180 Proof interprets "outside, beyond, and transcendent" in a physical sense — Gnomon
:rofl:The American Heritage Dictionary defines Metaphysics ...
In other words, the alleged (incoherent) "god's-eye view from nowhere" – woo-of-the-gaps. :sparkle:Ultimate Reality is a view from the outside, not in a literal sense, as 180 alleges, but from an imaginary perspective, asphilosophersdo routinely.
The fact that ir's even slightly more than a mere possibility ... sh*ts the bed.RICO Defendant-1 for Speaker of the US House of Representatives?
:clap: :100: Amen, sista!That's the main draw of religion: absolute certainty; simple answers to hard questions like "How should we live?" "What are right and wrong?" "What do owe one another and our society?" "What is the purpose of life?" Contrary to what many atheists like to repeat, religion was not the answer to "How did the world begin?" or "What causes thunder?" - those questions either do [not] arise of their own accord, or are dealt-with in myth, legend and folklore - no gods required. Gods were invented to hand down commandments and to favour us with supernatural power if we please them. That is: they command us and we manipulate them. Thence comes also the divine right of kings and infallibility of popes and evangelists, and of political dogma and the rise of dictators. They give us rules, solidarity, certainty and purpose - "something greater than myself" to belong to. — Vera Mont
:up:I don't see how, because energy operates according to physical laws,
— Wayfarer
And consciousness doesn't? — Benj96
What then is 'unconsciousness' – non-energy? How then does it do work constitutive of consciousness? I don't think this "energy" analogy works, Benj.Could consciousness be a form of energy like the rest?
So, for example, hurricanes and viruses, salt crystals and stars, evolution and ant colonies are "conscious" (à la panpsychism)? :eyes:I'm inclined to believe that consciousness is the ability of the system to self organise. — Benj96
:up: :up:But [Bob Ross] who studies metaphysics as that which is beyond all possible experience? Not Descartes, not Locke nor much that come to mind prior to Kant. — Manuel
And the truth-makers for these statements are?How is the claim, for example, “all truths are relative” not a grammatical statement that is truth-apt? Or “Consciousness is fundamental to reality”, or “mathematical structures are real”, … ? — Bob Ross
:roll: :sweat:Metaphysics is the attempt at determining ‘what things are’. No?
—Bob Ross
No. It's more like an "attempt at" deducing concepts and interpretions of"what things are". —180 Proof
That’s the same thing.
Those modifiers ain't working ...My point is that it is a study that thinks it can get at what reality actually is, and what things in that reality are.
Metaphysics is the study of what it rationally makes sense to say about the most general prerequisites and implications of counterintuitive physics (i.e. natural sciences – which provisionally "determine how things are" in / constituting the world.) — 180 Proof
Really? How about ...Give an example of a ‘philosophical statement’ which is not a proposition which references the world in any manner. — Bob Ross
No. It's more like an "attempt at" deducing concepts and interpretions of "what things are".Metaphysics is the attempt at determining ‘what things are’. No?
To jar your memory, an excerpt from a reply to you, Gnomon, on an old thread "What is Metaphysics? Yet again" ...I had never heard that term [immanentist] before. — Gnomon
Simply put, an immanentist rejects 'transcendent ideas / values / entities' as rationally unwarranted (i.e. wholly subjective). Thus my short list of notable philosophers ...Anyway, you're familiar with negative theology, aren't you? Well, my negative ontology (aka "immanentism") is more or less the same but applied to reality (in general) rather than just to g/G (in particular). — 180 Proof
& all other anti-supernaturalists, or anti-antirealists. :mask:Epicureans & Stoics, Kynics & Spinozists, Nietzscheans & Peircean-Deweyans — 180 Proof
It seems to me folks are still making fetishes of their fallaciously reified hasty generalizations (à la Feuerbach et al). 'Homo religiosi', no? Man the Idolator (idealizer, ideal/idol-reifier ). "Bewitched by language" (or Meinong's Jungle) – no doubt an atavistic cognitive illusion/bias prevalent with "beyonders" of all varieties that's stubbornly immune to philosophical reflection, etc. :zip:Sometimes it's claimed that perfect versions of what we experience within the Universe are beyond it, or God ... — Ciceronianus
:up:Thanks for your feedback! — Wayfarer
Incorrect. By the world I'm referring to 'the totality of facts' (re: TLP, 1.1-1.21).First point - when you say 'the world' here you refer to 'the totality of experience', right?
Then why not instead title the thread... this is an argument that the mind is both unitary and transcendental.
If X is true by definition (i.e. apodictic), then X is merely abstract and not concrete, or factual. Given ubiquitious and continuous (i.e. embodied) multi-modal stimuli from environmental imbedding, sufficiently complex, functioning, brains generate recursively narrative, phenomenal self models (PSM)¹ via tangled hierarchical (SL)² processing of which "first-person consciousness" consists. That these processes are also voluntarily as well as involuntarily interruptable, Wayfarer, demonstrates that the "reality (that) cannot be plausibly denied" is primarily virtual. :sparkle:... the reality of first-person consciousness is apodictic, cannot plausibly be denied.
