The obvious myth here is that somehow people that have lived ages ago somewhere before, have then more justification for the land while if people who have lived there, but haven't had a sovereign state, are somehow less justified. — ssu

It's a tricky issue who is justified to a piece of land. Were European settlers arriving in the Americas in the 1600s justified in taking land? In hindsight, the natives should have stopped them had they known what was coming. But I'm an American so I'm ultimately okay with Europeans colonizing it; worked out well for me. But if I were native american I'd likely have a different view.

So of course I believe Jews have a claim on Jerusalem/Israel. Jerusalem is the cultic center of Judaism. Do the Palestinians have a claim? I don't mind giving them Gaza; that was historically Philistine land and not Israelite land. But to claim that the entire West Bank belongs to Arab muslims to me seems excessive. I do not agree with such an idea. There has been a continuous Jewish presence in the West Bank since antiquity. Jews built and cultivated parts of it, though I am not an expert on the region.

And more over, because Zionism is a creation of the 19th Century, so actually your ideas are not so old either.

Hertzl may have reinvigorated it or invented "modern political Zionism" but Zionism is ancient as Judaism.

Jews migrated to Europe even during the Roman Empire, so they had been here for quite a while until Zionism came along (and Hitler, obviously too). — ssu

yes because they were expelled in two big waves: 70 ad and 135 ad, but jews even in the middle ages would still make aliyah, including some very famous rabbis. i don't have numbers for you, but even in those times the jewish connection to israel was never severed. there was a continuous flow of jews to israel at that time despite the perilous journey.

And overall if we generalize, this kind of thinking, that one people have more right to territory than others living there, then puts any kind of immigration and migrants to have less claim to the home they have, which at worst can be and is a form of racism. If Finns and the few thousand Sami people have lived on the same place since Antiquity, that surely doesn't mean the few people whose ancestors have migrated here later are somehow less justified to be here. Someone who has gotten citizenship should have equal rights, obviously. — ssu

I see what you're saying. Yes we should be respectful and welcoming to immigrants, generally. It really does depend on the type though, as we can see now in Europe.

These kinds of attitudes are so similar how (Putin's) Russia thinks and belittles Ukrainians and Ukraine itself. The state of Ukraine is "artificial" to them and quite in a similar way that Palestine and Palestinians "raise your eyebrows". — ssu

I'm fine with giving them Gaza as are most Israelis -- and I think most Jews would be willing to give them some of the West Bank, but this has not at all led to peace as even before 10/7 the muslims in the region sought to eat Israel. It's been a continual thing. If Ukrainians only began existing as a people in the 1960s I would be skeptical of them as well. It's not the same thing though. Their roots go back much further.

The name "Palestine" was also used by the Romans to de-Judaize the land after they expelled the Jews and destroyed the temple in 70 AD. So yes the "Palestinians" pick up a deliberately obnoxious term and designate themselves an entirely new people in the 1960s. Arabs definitely have history in the region; palestinian history apparently begins in the 1960s and population has caused an enormous amount of problems both for its arab neighbors and israel.

I think it's quite apt in this occasion. — ssu

IMHO as long as Hamas, a totalitarian regime, controls Gaza -- Gaza will be a prison for the palestinians.

"I am no fan of Hitler but he perpetrated the Holocaust for obvious reasons." - senior Palestinian official Abu Sido of Fatah, the moderate party.

+30,000 Palestinian noncombatants killed — 180 Proof

False. Gazan figures do not distinguish between civilian and fighter.

400,000 muslims dead in yemen. 500k-1 mil dead by assad. 1 mil muslims in concentration camps in china. much greater muslim suffering across the world, but how dare 1 jewish missile inadvertently kill a palestinian child in a home where weapons are stored and there's mass protests and synagogue burnings. palestinians are sacred victims. how dare those jews do that!

Now I'm even more confused. You do realize that we have been around as an independent state only from 1917, so I really don't know what you are talking about. — ssu

Ok, perhaps I remembered incorrectly, but I do recall you bringing up an instance where Finland was on the defensive, and in gaining victory gained a little more territory from the aggressor. If there is no such instance it is not important, as it is a common historical pattern - a country wins a war and gains territory.

The typical racism that jingoists use. Reminds me of the Serbs and their fixation with Kosovo Polje and how important for Putin is ancient Rus being the craddle of Russia, hence Ukraine and the Ukrainians are so artificial. It always starts from despising the other and questioning their overall existence and mythologization of one's own past.

But seriously, what has happened to Palestinian burial grounds? — ssu

No, racism, no mythology, only the facts from me:

If you'd like to disregard Genesis as myth that's fine. Archeology has clearly uncovered Hebrew/Israelite burial grounds from the ~6-7th century BC w/ inscriptions of the Torah. Israel has their ancient burial grounds.

"Palestine" has always described a geographic location. It did not become a people until the 1960s. So yes that will raise eyebrows. "Palestinians" are a people without a history, at least not one that extends back further than the 1960s. They are a recent invention.

...and then continued the open air prison of Gaza by closing the land and sea borders and had the occasional bombing of the place. That just now has hit a new crescendo. — ssu

With the support of Egypt. The Arab countries don't want them in either due to their history. Whether "prison" is an appropriate term is debatable. Gazans can certainly get out of Gaza and there are beautiful homes there. Ultimately, no one really trusts them with their borders... and who would? I'm sorry, but national security comes first. Tons of aid has come to Gaza. By letting them control their own border and imports that creates a serious national security threat. It's not just Israel -- none of their neighbors want them having unfettered access to their borders where they'll be able to import whatever.

I think the reason is that they formed a country called Israel and usually the citizens of that country are refered to being Israelis. The Jewish homeland and all that, remember? — ssu

States are relatively recent inventions in the near east. We keep the discussion simpler by just referring to Jews, Christians, and Muslims. "Palestine" was the name of a land, not a people... until the 1960s when it was adopted by a certain group.

On the contrary, that state of Palestine is a non-exist is quite true. There's Israel and it's occupied territories. — ssu

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005.

The idea that Israel ought to surrender the entire WB is absurd and takes zero consideration of the history and development of the region. Israel has shown a willingness to negotiate for much of it though.

Jews are indigenous to the region with our texts and archaeology finding e.g. ancient burial grounds all around the area, including a very famous one in Hebron that is described in Genesis as a burial plot purchased by Abraham (~early 2nd millennium BC) where the 4 patriarchs (Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph) are buried. Jesus was born in Bethlehem, in Judea, in the WB. So much history there.

Where are the ancient Palestinian burial plots? Where is there anything that is ancient Palestinian? Jews are the indigenous; Palestinian muslims are the late coming colonizers. Israel will negotiate for the WB (and has offered ~98% of it in exchange for peace), but for the world to tell them that they must withdraw from all of it is absurd. There are 22 muslim countries and 1 Jewish one in the international community, of course they rule against Israel. I-P is the main front in the West versus Islam conflict. That's really what it's about.

I don't hate the Muslims, for the record. They claim to have new revelation and it must be frustrating for them knowing that they have word from God and those stiff necked Jews just won't listen.

What land have we gotten from Russia? I'm confused. — ssu

IIRC you mentioned a historical instance where Finland won a war (against Russia?) and as a result won a bit of land from the aggressor.

t's the same as the "death cult" statements we've seen attributed to Palestinians here because schopenhauer made an observation some time about the Quran. — Benkei

I understand that the history, culture, and religion of a region don't matter to you. What matters is international law and whether it's being followed. And if not according to your view, well then I guess murder is a totally legitimate response. No morality, only law.

80 years ago Jews were stateless, had no rights, and were thus legal to murder. The holocaust was entirely legal so what was wrong with it? or does only international law have that perfect, inviolable character? Why?

Why doesn't the UN go tell Finland to return the land it won from Russia? Or the countless other parcels of land won in war?

Even if 50% or 70% isn't 84%, the idea that Hamas has built in more than 50% of housing a military positions is simply outrageously ludicrous. It simply isn't the case. — ssu

An IDF spokesperson writes in the Wall Street Journal that their military has 'discovered that most homes in Gaza have terror tunnels underneath or weapon caches inside, and the majority of schools, mosques, hospitals and international institutions have been used by Hamas for their military operations.'

Their entire society has been militarized. Then their government starts a war by killing 1200 taking heads and body parts as war trophies, but Israel is called to restrain itself. After all, the indigenous Palestinian population has suffered enough!

Calling them "Palestinians" has to be the greatest psy-op in history. Why are Jews never referred to as Palestinians? There have been Jews living in that region continuously since antiquity. But no, Palestinians are not Jews. They're indigenous to a magical, non-existent land known as "Palestine." None of it makes any sense.

It's just Jews versus the regional Arab Muslims, but more specifically their wicked government. Razing a village could be "genocide" if the inhabitants of that village are designated as their own group.

Would raping, kidnapping, torturing, and murdering white south african civilians under apartheid be justified resistance? What it comes down to is conventional (Judeo-Christian) morality versus this idea of "by any means necessary" which identifies and judges individuals and actions through the lens of group membership.

Violence against X group is justified; violence against Y is not. All members of X are the oppressor group; Y is the oppressed. It's nothing new. But it is sociopathic.

Keep up the good work of defending genocidal rapists, torturers, and murderers. :up:

Hamas uses children in its armed forces. Even if Israel were to only kill Hamas, children would die.

Hey Mikie, why doesn't Hamas stop the fighting? I think they could do it. Do you think they could do it? It might have been nice if they didn't start the fighting, but that's just a fait accompli. — tim wood

:100:

Hamas could stop the fighting if they choose to release the ~150 people they've stolen from Israel.

But Mikie, the victor kills thousands of children

Emotion and pity is not an argument. I could argue like you, it's not hard: "How could you ever go to war and kill people? OMGGG genocide and child murder."

And of course the victor is always in the wrong because, well, he's the victor and inflicts more casualties.

America killed many more Japanese children in WWII. By virtue of simply choosing to go to war with Japan we guaranteed the deaths of thousands of Japanese children. Japan would recruit as young as 15, similar to Hamas.

Fighting the Germans, too, meant sometimes fighting and killing children.

And of course if we wish to avoid all child casualties then it would be child murder to attack the Houthis. :roll:

It seems you don't like Israel because Israel is winning. :chin:

If it were the other way then what? Would you like Israel more? The weaker side gets your support then.

You make interesting points. I'll address two: humanitarianism in war and your point about Gaza as "evil."

Regarding humanitarianism I would tend to agree, and Israel has actually fought this war fairly humanely. John Spencer, who holds a faculty chair position at West Point, concluded:

"Israel has painstakingly followed the laws of armed conflict and implemented many steps to prevent civilian casualties, despite enormous challenges.

Israel's military faced over 30,000 Hamas militants in over 400 miles of defensive and offensive tunnels embedded in and under civilian areas, populations and protected sites such as hospitals, mosques, schools, and United Nations facilities across multiple cities."

Additionally, Israel has not cut out aid for the palestinians. Israel regularly allows in many aid trucks despite Israeli protestors who object that this aid just goes to Hamas (and much of it does as we have video of Hamas stealing it and Palestinian civilians have started demonstrating against Hamas.)

Hamas does have bomb shelters, but Palestinian civilians are not allowed in these bomb shelters. They are for the safety of Hamas fighters. It is also to my understanding that Israel has turned back on the water pipes, although it is strange notion that Gaza is apparently so reliant on Israel for water. Water is not hard to provide for a population. Hamas did ban Palestinian civilians from digging wells however.... In any case, Israel lets in aid despite protesters and very well knowing that much of it ends up in the hands of Hamas.

Regarding winning "hearts and minds" -- sure, but I wouldn't expect too much. Polls show 85% of Palestinians support Hamas's actions on 10/7 so numbers are discouraging, but yes Israel ought to persist and fight humanely as it has done. ~300,000 Iraqi civilians died in Iraq, much less have died in Gaza. Spencer argues it is ill-advised to compare Israel to other modern conflicts:

https://www.newsweek.com/memo-experts-stop-comparing-israels-war-gaza-anything-it-has-no-precedent-opinion-1868891

Regarding Gaza as wicked

I know you will not admit it, but Israel simply wants revenge and the current administration milks that revenge. Gaza is the evil city. They are human animals. They elected Hamas (years ago) so they surely aren't innocent. All this dehumanization works wonders if you want to satisfy the emotions of a people traumatized by October 7th, but it won't help you in the long term. But who cares about that!

Revenge, sure, but also the hostages who are being sexually and physically abused by a government which has the widespread support of the population. But not every palestinian is wicked. Politicians such as Ben Gvir will push the hard right line, but there is also the opposition in the Knesset which includes arab muslims and there was recently a blow up between Ben Gvir and that side. Israel is under unity government. The Knesset represents all stripes of Israel and there is a hard right in every nation.

I don't deny such notions exist. We're only human after all. I have no idea what the post-war order will look like, only that a military response towards Hamas is justified. A ruling body cannot murder, torture, and rape the citizens of another nation and not expect to be hit back. It is time to cleanse the evil that is Hamas. And a return of this evil is not inevitable, at least on the scale it is now.

So no, it won't go that way here as it went with Germany (and Japan) after WW2. Just as Iraq didn't go as Germany. Or Afghanistan. — ssu

How exactly do you want Israel to respond to 10/7? Are they to scurry off to the UN and demand a resolution against Hamas? Is Israel to first gain permission from the UN before it can defend itself?

It will just show how incapable the Arabs are of anything, right? — ssu

Yet Arabs are capable of making peace with Israel. Given that, the Palestinians should be as well (as the Palestinians are really Arabs, the rebranding can be traced to the 1960s for propaganda purposes). But no Palestinian leader would deign to do so, hence a regime change is needed.

I'm sure that similarly the West German response would have been different if you would have based the occupation on that Germany and the Germans are a death cult — ssu

Nazism is a death cult as is the Islamism of Hamas. Ideological deprogramming must occur in both cases. Ideas may be eternal, but the minds that hold them -- lodged in skulls -- are far from eternal.

Special pleading.

A low level of anti-semitism is endemic in Western countries. It’s a hang over from the last few hundred years of persecution and prejudice against them.

If it weren’t there and Isreal were conducting the same actions against the Palestinians there would still be the same level of outrage across the globe. Outrage at a so called civilised country, a Western country confining a population and then starving them to death and bombing indiscriminately. — Punshhh

A low level which has now exploded back to 1930s levels and targets all Jews worldwide.

I don't think so. The hate extends far past the Israeli government. It extends to all Israelis as we've seen in the rape denials and hostage posters being torn down and extends past that to world Jewry. I've never heard of hostage posters of other nations being torn down.

Bombs indiscriminately? I'm sure you're intricately familiar with the IDF's targeting procedures. Surely you've spent some time in their command centers to make that judgment (I actually have worked in one, but not Israel's). The IDF has been quite precise actually and maintained a quite good civilian to terrorist death ratio, comparatively speaking.

Hamas steals their aid by the way. The Palestinians have started protesting/rioting against them. Their own Arab cohorts are starting speaking out against them. It could all be over if Hamas returns the people they stole. And those who do return speak of grievous sexual assault. Sometimes evil just needs to eliminated.

Can we please steer away with a very wide birth from the "psyche" of a group of people? Smells too close to racism to me. Cultural and material conditions have caused both sides to have a majority of people that can drink the other sides blood. That is a consequence of a decades long (rather one sided) conflict but little to do with "psyche". After WWII my grandfather-in-law hated Germans for the rest of his life - that was only 5 years of conflict. — Benkei

Not racism, religious difference. Schopenhauer described the Quran as containing a "remarkable contempt for death" as opposed to Judaism, the oldest of the Abrahamics, which has more time to develop/moderate and contains much less eschatology than Islam. In that sense, we can speak of different "psyches" -- not due to race, but by religious/cultural upbringing. According to the Pew Research Center, 85% of Muslims in the Palestinian Territories say religion is very important in their lives.

And note, IDF cannot surely beat the movement called Hamas, but present military units of Hamas the can take out or degrade to a point that they can say to the Israeli public that Hamas isn't a threat. And that's it. That's the objective. Same is for Hezbollah they have a huge stockpile of rockets, so the issue is to destroy the existing capability. — ssu

What if I were to say, "the US and Britain surely cannot beat the movement called Nazism, but only their present military units"... I suppose I would be technically right also but not making much of a point. Nazis do still exist.

Hopefully Israel won't need to "mow the grass" in another decade or two if real, systemic changes can be made and if the Rafah campaign is successful. Several military commentators, including ones from West Point, have commented that Israel is conducting this war quite humanely with less than a 2:1 civilian to terrorist ratio.

Isreal and Bibi react. Then think about tomorrow. 'The distant future' is not on their minds. — ssu

I can't think of another country that doesn't respond similarly when 1200 of its own are slaughtered and ~300 taken hostage. What are we negotiating about??? What's the response? Embargo Hamas? Write them a strongly worded letter from the UN demonstrating international condemnation and a promise to restart the peace process? There is no peace process with Hamas in charge. Or the PA, for that matter. Israel is to be made Muslim according to them.

Another point I thought of regarding anti-semitism: Could you think of another country whose hostage posters would be torn down if its citizens were kidnapped by another group? I struggle to think of one. Israel is regarded as the nexus of worldly evil for so much of the world, especially on college campuses and among the youth. It's disturbing.

Moreover, why are so many of the pro-Palestinian protests violent and destructive while in the pro-Israel ones I've never heard of any vandalism and everyone's sitting around singing "HaTikvah." The difference in "culture" between the two groups is stunning. The Palestinian crowd disturbs cancer wards with their bullhorns. It's self-righteous psychopathy. Extremely dangerous.

Prussia was abolished in 1947, deemed a "bearer of militarism and reaction" by the Allies. Could this be genocide? Genocide of the focal point of German militarism?

The displacement and destruction of an entire regional culture or people is genocide. — Benkei

Do you think a culture can ever be so wicked that it deserves to be destroyed?

So just what you earlier said means that if the IRA had killed 1200, then you would have been totally OK with air strikes! — ssu

You can compare Israel-Palestine to the IRA conflict and I can compare it to Nazism. After all, 1200 is a number reminiscent of early Nazi massacres c. 1941. The reason Israel isn't in more danger is because Israel and Egypt control Gaza's borders and monitor them for weapons.

I'm not hugely familiar with the IRA conflict. If 1200 were killed in the attempt on Thatcher's life in the 1980s with 3/4 being civilians and many rapes occurring and hundreds of Protestants taken hostage in brutal conditions, would the Irish be out on the streets cheering in mass? Beats me. Not my neck of the woods. Would we have seen the Irish beating these hostages as they were paraded down the streets of Northern Ireland because they were English-Protestant? Time to bring back Cromwell I'd be thinking if I were English.

Israel does not bomb neighborhoods because the residents are sympathetic to Hamas; it bombs them because they contain military infrastructure. If Israel bombed a populace because it supported Hamas, virtually all of Gaza would be leveled.

Do you understand that your response can be the intent of the perpetrator? — ssu

Yes. Hamas intended to open the gates of hell on 10/7. I'm sure Japan knew that war would begin on Dec 7 1941. But one ever really argued that bombing Nazi Germany or Japan would just lead to more Nazis or Imperial Japanese. Perhaps the reprisals against those two nations initially did strengthen their resolve?

Do note what Maggie did after the actual bombing: she continued the conference and declared: ""this attack has failed. All attempts to destroy democracy by terrorism will fail." — ssu

The world would have been in a very different place if the IRA had managed to kill ~1200 British in one day, including the Prime Minister... but we enter into thought experiments here.

Just shows how absolutely crazy these "anti-racism" racists are. But naturally there's no logic to these stupidities, it is only a matter of convenience what the present hated or feared group is by the haters, be they the Jews, the Irish, the Muslims, the Japanese, the Chinese, whoever and whatever. — ssu

Some of these groups are nationalities, others are religions -- can one not question an ideology? Or should we just immediately accept it if it's a religion? I'm wary of any religion which seeks to convert the world to its creed.

And that makes my point that religious zealots have hijacked the situation on both sides. — ssu

I'm no expert on Israeli politics, but Netanyahu, while certainly right wing, does not strike me as a religious extremist. I would question his level of observance/religious outlook and I do not group him in with e.g Kach although I understand the relationship between the two groups is nuanced and do share some common goals.

That rise only shows the failure of "Mr. Security", prime minister Netanyahu. Because to assume that people like Ben Gvir will fix the problem is simply delusional. — ssu

What I was saying was if it is true that Palestinians working at these kibbutzim aided Hamas in the 10/7 attacks then that lends credence to Ben Gvir's (and his party, which is the ideological successor of Kach -- Meir Kahane's party; the true far right of Israeli politics) notion of the Arab muslims as a fifth column that clearly threatens the democratic health of the state. It's unfortunate. Israel can attempt to integrate. There are muslim judges and muslims who hold respectable posts in the IDF, but Israel is still a new state and these religious differences are deeply entrenched.

Yep, guess what the response would have been by the IRA? You think they would have less volunteers?

I dislike comparisons between the IRA conflict with Britain and the Israel-Palestine conflict. When 1200 are murdered I'm fine with shelling. I'm fine with air strikes.

Catholics and Protestants are the same religion. Jews and Muslims (Jews and muslims almost surely have more in common than Jews and Christians, theologically) are not -- especially the fundamentalism of Hamas that seeps through the society through every institution. Islam (especially fundamentalist Islam), imho, manages to combine the most dangerous, potent elements of Judaism and Christianity and does so as the youngest of the bunch having undergone the least amount of reform.

I'd be more sympathetic to the IRA/UK comparison if the IRA wanted to capture all of the UK, establish hardline Catholic rule and subjugate the Protestants.

Bibi needs his coalition partners, who actually are quite close to Meir Kahane. That's the problem here. They really are former terrorists... or terrorists that got free and to positions to further their agenda now. — ssu

For sure people like Ben Gvir are right-wing extremists.

Many if not most of the kibbutzim that Hamas attacked on 10/7 were some of the most left-leaning, pro-integrationist settlements in Israel. They would employ Palestinians, drive them to hospitals, etc. It was those Palestinians who gave Hamas the intel it needed to successfully attack. And we wonder why people like Ben Gvir rise to power.

Personally I don't have anything against Jews or Israeli Jews. I've met few, they were very smart people and actually didn't like how politics were going in their country, but naturally were very patriotic. Yes, the truth is that those lunatics dancing around in meetings and purposing new settlements in Gaza with the "voluntary removal" of Palestinians won't create empathy for the Jewish cause.

Yes, it will also increase anti-semitism as there are those that are prone to hate all people of certain group for the actions of either governments or some people (like terrorists). Hatred of Russians is another perfect example of this. But many Russians here were shocked by what Putin had done when attacking Ukraine. Hence I'm not going to for example ban Russian restaurants... they don't have President Putin's photo or the orange-black colours or "Z" up on their walls.

And what "Canary in the coal mine" are you talking about? — ssu

It's more than that, at least in the US. I don't know how things are in Finland. Plenty of countries have right wing leadership and are involved with land disputes with other countries. Yet we don't hear about those, Somalia for instance. Today 19 students from Brown decided to go on hunger strike for Gaza. We're seeing roads get blocked and airports blocked off by protesters for Palestine. IIRC there's been like an 800% in antisemitic incidents or attacks quarterly... city council meetings in California where blood libels about israel stealing palestinian organs are mentioned. numerous violent protests against the police here in the US and across the world far exceeding anything we saw opposing Russia. Public figures such as politicians and CEOs who support Israel are harassed in public and their private events crashed by screaming protesters who have begun hiring their own security services (yellow armbands.) Synagogues faced with bomb threats and graffiti here in the US.

Federal investigations have opened against schools, IIRC, in New York and California for preaching antisemitism. DEI has ignored Jews for decades, portraying them as white oppressors. Dozens of Jewish families have withdrawn their children from these areas. I could go on about this. Check out the Ami Horowitz video where he goes to a college in San Francisco:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nbm4mao4-k0

Much of it occurs in educated cities, liberal areas. By "canary in the coalmine" I see it as an early sign of things to come especially if this remains unchecked.

Netanyahu has no right to speak of deradicalizing anyone. He's a radical himself. Hamas is his baby. The murder of Yitzhak Rabin is his brain child. The death of Israel will be in large part his doing. — Tzeentch

aaannd we've entered into conspiracy theory territory. Or is Netanyahu actually Meir Kahane in disguise, back from the dead?

But I guess it's convenient to portray Israel as the little guy facing off a huge powerful menace. — ssu

It very well can be; it depends on the scale. Are we talking just the IDF vs Hamas? Then obviously no. But what if it's Israel versus the muslim world/those who strive to spread Islam? Then it does start to look a bit like that.

Israel's survival should not be taken as a given. Jews know very well that the unthinkable can happen and the world will very much let it happen. Israel as a state is still a baby.

Regarding anti-semitism, the scale of it is shocking if you look at the stats. Cultural factors have me worried as well. Jews are the canary in the coal mine.

The PLA and Hamas are roughly of equal shittiness. The PLA has a martyrs fund that pays out funds to the families of those who kill Israelis. I don't hate the strategy of playing the two against each other. Both strive to destroy Israel.

Still shrugging off the intentional murder, kidnapping and rape of innocents because they happened to be born Israeli as "resistance against Israel" while palestinian victims are the greatest tragedy known to humanity? Classy.

Blame Hamas for militarizing schools, homes and hospitals and endangering their population. There was no need for destruction to be this widespread, but when an enemy does not wear a uniform and militarizes their entire population neutralizes comes at a cost. Hamas commits constant war crimes and indiscriminately murders, while Israel allows in aid and takes comprehensive steps to minimize casualties.

https://www.economist.com/united-states/2023/12/07/one-in-five-young-americans-thinks-the-holocaust-is-a-myth

Although in their propaganda they say that it's them who are on the verge of being wiped out. — ssu

Antisemitism has once again become normalized; Jews are seen as the oppressors by 2/3 in Gen Z and 1 in 5 in Gen Z believe the holocaust to be a myth. The First Minister of Scotland gave a holocaust address where he never once mentioned Jews. We have seen the erasure of Jewish suffering since 10/7 with everything being deserved because Jews are deemed the oppressors. Hostage posters torn down. Jewish restaurants destroyed and terrorized around the world. Some of the older Jews have compared this environment to the 1930s -- not a second holocaust, but scary.

It's almost like they don't really believe a genocide is going on.
— RogueAI

No. — Mikie

I encourage you to read Judge Sebutide's view.

https://www.icj-cij.org/node/203449

"During the oral proceedings in the present case, it was brought to the attention of the Court that South Africa, and in particular certain organs of government, have enjoyed and continue to enjoy a cordial relationship with the leadership of Hamas. If that is the case, then one would encourage South Africa as a party to these proceedings and to the Genocide Convention, to use whatever influence they might wield, to try and persuade Hamas to immediately and unconditionally release the remaining hostages, as a good will gesture. I have no doubt that such a gesture of good will would go a very long way in defusing the current conflict in Gaza."

Some might call it western paternalism to liken the palestinians (or Hamas) to children or dogs.

Once again: understand what an analogy is. Everybody understands beating a dog just makes it aggressive; this is no different than people. Why abused kids often become abusers, why dangerous neighbourhoods raise dangerous people.

And you have it reversed. Their actions result in who's better or worse. It's because Israel had no rights to the occupied territory, so armed resistance is just. It's Israel having collectively punished Gazans for decades. It's a matter of applying legal and moral principles as a result of which Israel is much worse than Hamas. Any tragedy visited in Israeli citizens is by their own making, Jews sacrificed on the Zionist altar.

I understand that you're making an analogy. In your analogies, you repeatedly metaphorize Palestinians are dogs and/or children while Israel is metaphorized as an adult.

Interesting how you describe Israel in the collective abstract, i.e. an impersonal state, while you write of the opposite side as "Gazans" i.e. actual people who are victimized.

Except I'm not. As I've stated before I don't condone all their methods. But nuance is difficult. The point is, why don't you demand Israel to deradicalise their insane colonisation policy, apartheid regime and war crime tactics? No, in your mind, Hamas and PA need to take steps to become peace loving hippies while being ethnically cleansed by their neighbours. It's an idiotic ask. When Israel stops its crimes, then you can expect these things. — Benkei

It's become apparent to me that the palestinians could do anything -- any number of beheadings, rapes, murders, tortures, paying the families of those who kill Israelis -- and you'd say something like "I don't condone this" and that would be the end of it. I think it's because you view it in terms of group dynamics -- palestinians good, israel bad -- so anyone under the palestinian banner can only be so bad given they're on the right team/side. And you seemingly compare them to dogs biting an abusive master 2 pages back.

So when a Palestinian cheers an Israeli death, it's not the same thing. If an Israeli is killed in this conflict, it's not the same thing. To interpret the violence between these two groups as morally equivalent is wilfully ignoring context. — Benkei

I've noticed that you repeatedly liken palestinians to dogs or children. Given this is the case, how can one believe that they're ready of self-rule? The international community ought to set them a proper bedtime.

But yeah, it's not the same thing when a dog kills a person versus when an adult willfully murders a child even if the child is throwing pebbles.

If that's what the palestinians are then you're right on the money. I was silly enough to assign them responsibility.

Hamas isn't the Palestine state, just like Hezbollah isn't Lebanon. — ssu

Hamas is the de facto government of Gaza and were voted in democratically. If elections were held in the WB, Hamas would win. I want to believe that Hamas is not the voice of the palestinians, but they quite likely are.

Even the "moderate" PLO has the martyr fund where they pay families of those martyrs who kill Jews.

Who is the leader of your race/religion? Who do I go to if I need to speak to, e.g., the leader of the black people? Take me to your leader so you can become blameworthy through him.