Bomb shelters open in northern Israeli cities after rockets from Lebanon

The northern Israeli cities of Acre, Nahariya and Haifa opened public bomb shelter after rockets were fired from Lebanon.

The Israeli army however is saying procedures in the north are back to routine. (Noa Shpigel)

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/israeli-officials-expect-gaza-cease-fire-within-days-as-rockets-fired-at-south-1.9821476

The problems Hamas poses for its people are for the Palestinians to decide, not Israel.

It's not as if Israel loved the PLO either, they were labeled "terrorists" for the longest time.

You have a very strange view of blame. If your boss is mean to you at work and you go home and kick your dog is it your boss' fault? Even if he was really, really mean to you? Hamas created itself.

When you begin to understand self-responsibility and responsibility in general it'll all become so much clearer. Why can't I say that nothing Israel does is their fault because Hamas was pushing them to do it? It's like agency doesn't exist in your world or it only exists for Israel. Nobody else has it.

THEN this thread's ethnic cleansing (post-1967 zionist US client-apartheid state) apologists:
@BitconnectCarlos ☆
@Joshs ☆
@Echarmion
@Number2018
@Judaka
@Andrew4Handel ☆ — 180 Proof

When did I make any excuses for Israel? I agree that Israel is an apartheid state, they annexed land in 1967 but they don't want the people who were living on those lands. They have been and are still trying to evict those people, they treat them as second-class citizens.

Others among these posters listed made no excuse for Israel. That you named me just demonstrates what you're really about, this is an ego trip for you. Baden seems to think you should be allowed to say literally whatever you want and if it's addressed that's off-topic. Number2018 never even commented on whether Israel was justified. However, because this is your "moral stance" or whatever Baden calls it, you're all good to call people ethnic cleansing, apartheid apologists with no repercussions. Great. Wonder how many of these other posters are guilty only of saying something about you, that you didn't like.

@Maw "Tone", lol. At least half of my posts on this thread have explicitly called out Israel as being in the wrong, being an apartheid state. Yet, because I criticised among others, 180 proof, he decides to list me as an ethnic cleansing, apartheid state apologist. You try to downplay it as "mean names" but it's more than that, these aren't the acts of someone motivated by sympathy, it's something else.

It's like agency doesn't exist in your world or it only exists for Israel — BitconnectCarlos

In the asymmetrical distribution of power which Israel levearges at every point as an opressive, aggressor force, it is indeed entirely responsible for everything that happens to it.

pointless...

Not people defending or unconcerned for moral atrocities that they agree are immoral!, but people saying mean things to others. That's liberalism folks. All about tone, not content. — Maw

:100: :up:

When did I make any excuses for Israel? — Judaka

Here you pay lip-service to criticisms of Israeli aggression while you criticize other critics of Israel for our 'moral indignation' and fucking tone:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/comment/536855

STFD, Judaka, and own-up to your tacit approval of (aiding & abetting apologetics for) Bibi's war crimes.

"Fifteen Palestinian nuclear and extended families lost at least three, and in general more, of their members, in the Israeli shelling of the Gaza Strip during the week from May 10 through to Monday afternoon. Parents and children, babies, grandparents, siblings and nephews and nieces died together when Israel bombed their homes, which collapsed over them. Insofar as is known, no advance warning was given so that they could evacuate the targeted houses.

On Saturday, a representative of the Palestinian Health Ministry brought listed the names of 12 families who were killed, each one at its home, each one in a single bombing. Since then, in one air raid before dawn on Sunday, which lasted 70 minutes and was directed at three houses on Al Wehda Street in the Rimal neighborhood of Gaza, three families numbering 38 people in total were killed. Some of the bodies were found on Sunday morning. Palestinian rescue forces only managed to find the rest of the bodies and pull them out from the rubble only on Sunday evening.

Wiping out entire families in Israeli bombings was one of the characteristics of the war in 2014. In the roughly 50 days of the war then, UN figures say that 142 Palestinian families were erased (742 people in total). The numerous incidents then and today attest that these were not mistakes: and that the bombing of a house while all its residents are in it follows a decision from higher up, backed by the examination and approval of military jurists.

An investigation by the human rights group B’Tselem that focused on some 70 of the families who were eradicated in 2014, provided three explanations for the numerous nuclear and extended families that were killed, all at once, in one Israeli bombing on the home of each such family. One explanation was that the Israeli army didn’t provide advance warning to the homeowners or to their tenants; or that the warning didn’t reach the correct address, at all or on time.

In any case, what stands out is the difference between the fate of the buildings that were bombed with their residents inside, and the “towers” – the high-rise buildings that were shelled as of the second day of this latest conflict, during the daytime or early evening.

Reportedly, the owners or the concierge in the towers got prior warning of an hour at most that they must evacuate, usually via phone call from the army or Shin Bet security service, then “warning missiles” fired by drones. These owners/concierges were supposed to warn the other residents in the short time remaining.

Not only highrises were involved. On Thursday evening Omar Shurabji’s home west of Khan Yunis was shelled. A crater formed in the road and one room in the two־story building was destroyed. Two families, with seven people altogether, live in that building.

About 20 minutes before the explosion, the army called Khaled Shurabji and told him to tell his uncle Omar to leave the house, per a report by the Palestinian center for human rights. It is not known whether Omar was there, but the residents of the house all hastened to get out, so there were no casualties.

This very fact that the Israeli army and Shin Bet trouble to call and order the evacuation of the homes shows that the Israeli authorities have current phone numbers for people in each structure slated for destruction. They have the phone numbers for relatives of the people suspected or known to be activists for Hamas or Islamic Jihad.

The Palestinian population registry, including that of Gaza, is in the hands of the Israeli Interior Ministry. It includes details such as names, ages, relatives and addresses.

As the Oslo Accords require, the Palestinian interior ministry, through the civil affairs ministry, transfers current information regularly to the Israeli side, especially concerning births and newborns: The registry data must receive Israeli approval, because without that, Palestinians cannot receive an identity card when the time comes, or in the case of minors – they can’t travel alone or with their parents through border crossings controlled by Israel.

It is clear, then, that the army knows the number and names of children, women and elderly who live in every residential building it bombs for any reason."

https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005?fbclid=IwAR306IXBQT4_RVceJyJ2H-HOXTpnalwWMC4r2d0-9Pvbg9XypO1j8rlFr3s

"Tone" is a generous euphemism for being belligerent and disingenuous, you actually seem to think you're important in the matter of Israel, your status as a "critic of Israel" counts for shit. You value how I treat you - as a critic of Israel, over my criticism of Israel as an apartheid state, guilty of systematic oppression and racism. You're so self-important, 180, it's amazing. "Critic of Israel", you're a pretentious, ego-driven, virtue signalling fraud and I'm not forced to compromise on that view, no matter what.

virtue signalling — Judaka

There it is hahaha

It's a great term, one can't understand the modern left without it.

Whatever it takes to justify your 3 word vocabulary.

I have to laugh.

I expected some pushback from these "defenders" of Israel, aside from actual Israelis. But some arguments here about "complexity" are ridiculous.

To a child beaten by their abusive father, there isn't a really substantive difference between the father's explicit defenders and people like you who no basis to complain about the critics except that the discourse bothers you.

In the asymmetrical distribution of power which Israel levearges at every point as an opressive, aggressor force, it is indeed entirely responsible for everything that happens to it. — StreetlightX

Even in the Warsaw ghetto the Judenrat would have been responsible had they turned on their own LGBTQ population. Being a victim doesn't absolve one of responsibility, and it never has.

It would not have been the Nazi's fault either in the theoretical event that the Nazis did nothing to encourage the practice.

This is a philosophy forum, not a board arbitrating real-world matters, the quality of the discourse is actually the most important thing here. This is a place to discuss issues, many of which are highly sensitive and important, but that is not an excuse to degrade the quality of the discourse. The outcomes of these sensitive matters aren't decided here, the stakes are only as high as the posters make them.

It would be one thing if there was a complete devoid of arguments and fact citing and just name calling where explaining is necessary. But that's not really the problem I saw building up earlier in the thread. They have a problem with oppositional condemnation towards Israel, making all sorts of excuses.

Also this is a real life issue with real life people in this forum.

You're so self-important, 180, it's amazing. "Critic of Israel", you're a pretentious, ego-driven, virtue signalling fraud and I'm not forced to compromise on that view, no matter what — Judaka

Seems I've rubbed a raw nerve ... Harsher words for some internet asshole than the Butcher Bibi. Quite telling. :roll: Whatever. You're already "compromised", so GFY.

The worst crime is how Zionism, as an idea of the Jewish people returning to their original homeland, which was in itself a beautiful thing, has warped into, what I'll call, political Zionism, which denies other people rights and dehumanised an entire ethnic people and is the source of the worst atrocities in modern history.

Zionism even had anti-statist branches, based on mutual cooperation. It's what Chomsky's father was in to as was Chomsky himself.

Then again, WWII did not allow for many options for the Jewish people. So the US and Europe are also directly connected to this mess. It need not have played out this way...

Being called pretentious and such is harsher than being called a human right's abuser? 180, what's telling is that you actually believe that what I called you is worse than what I said about the Israeli government. You're always deflecting, you label me an ethnic cleansing and apartheid supporter because I called you out on some bad behaviour. You value how you're treated as a "critic of Israel" more than an explicit condemnation of Israel, which just proves everything I had to say about you.

just so you know you're talking with an actual genocide apologist who refuses to condemn the genocide of Palestinian LGBTQ by Hamas among other crimes & suppression of the Palestinian people.

Another fuckin' non sequitur. Wasn't talking about your content – there isn't any – just your self-rightenous "tone". Harsher words for me – or anyone else who calls you out – than for Bibi. Cowardly bitch.

conquest does not give title to land. — Tobias

That is the only way you can justify land ownership or come to claim to own land. Land doesn't give itself to you

and is the source of the worst atrocities in modern history. — Benkei

Please tell me you joking.. This has to be the most egregious nonsense on the whole thread.

You are comparing this with The Rwanda Genocide, ISIS, 9/11 and the Taliban.

I really question people like this actual motives.

I'm sure 180 condemns any hostile treatment of LGBTQ...


What didn't you understand? By calling Israel an apartheid state, by saying they're guilty of systematic oppression and racial discrimination, all such words naturally carry on to the head-of-state. These words are obviously harsher than saying you're pretentious or self-important, you little princess.

I literally brought this topic up like 2 pages ago and he accused me of spreading lies and refused to condemn hamas.

I assume you want the leaders of Hamas "out of office," as well? Or more specifically out of leadership roles? If you don't want Bibi "destroyed," surely you don't want Hamas' leaders destroyed either. Correct?
— Xtrix

I'd actually like the leaders of Hamas dead, but out of office would be a victory as well. Ideally, Hamas as both an organization and a belief system would be no more - leaders dead, we can can spare the lesser members. If you are consciously and deliberately leading this movement I consider you an enemy of humanity. — BitconnectCarlos

In that case, we should consider Bibi an enemy of humanity and should "like" him dead, too.

it's like it is in the United States if Canada were to declare war on us and bomb a border town and then claim something like "well there might have been a General or soldier living there who knows." It just doesn't fly. — BitconnectCarlos

Which is exactly what Israel is doing to Gaza.

The fact that you take the pretext seriously when coming from Bibi and not from Canada is your own blind spot, nothing more.

I know. I was just questioning your reasoning earlier; you were upset that the kill count was so imbalanced and (and if I understood you correctly) due to that you were sympathetic to the Palestinians. If more Israelis died would you more sympathetic to Israel? — BitconnectCarlos

I didn't once say that. I'm "sympathetic" to any innocent person murdered by terrorists -- whether it's Hamas terrorists or Israeli terrorists. The latter terrorists happen to be the stronger force, with backing from the United States. They're also the occupiers and the aggressors.

The Palestinains are not only far weaker militarily, but have been living in a hellhole for decades due to right-wing Israeli policy, with numerous violations of international law. There is no parity here.

If Israel wants to stop this, they can. They have the power to help the Palestinian people overthrow the sadistic Hamas regime and live dignified lives. That's a choice Israel has, has rejected for decades, and continues to reject. They want to continue blaming their victims.

"Easy way"? How about sparing the lives of innocent people -- all the while making things harder for Israel by creating more sympathy for Hamas and creating more misery and desire for revenge to the Palestinians -- by using the enormous resources Israel has, militarily and otherwise, with US support, to deal with this problem?
— Xtrix

So what is your suggestion? We're both on the same page here - we want to minimize casualties but do you just want to use a different type of ammunition? Give me concrete suggestion. — BitconnectCarlos

Sure, I'll give you one simple and immediate one: accept a ceasefire.

Even the term ceasefire (which the U.S. blocked the UN Security Council resolution for the third time) is kind of a capitulation to Israel's framing, because Hamas isn't even a state actor and Israel killed much more people in the past week than Hamas did over the past decade. We need to urge Bill HR 2590 that's supported by 25 House Progressives. It is simply indefensible to send Military Aid to Israel who are using our tax payer money to kill civilians, including children and unarmed demonstrators.

Even the term ceasefire (which the U.S. blocked the UN Security Council resolution for the third time) is kind of a capitulation to Israel's framing, because Hamas isn't even a state actor and Israel much more people in the past week than Hamas did over the past decade. We need to urge Bill HR 2590 that's supported by 25 House Progressives. It is simply indefensible to send Military Aid to Israel who are using our tax payer money to kill children and unarmed demonstrators. — Saphsin

Very good point indeed.

Still, even accepting this framework, this is a simple choice Israel can make to stop the murdering of innocent people and help itself in the meantime as well. If Israel wants to become even more of an international pariah, then they should continue their war crimes. This appears to be what they're choosing.