Tell me, O wise one, when does it all begin? — BitconnectCarlos

What a stupid question.

Not a history major, I see.

Would Biden do anything meaningful on climate? — boethius

It’s a mixed bag with Biden. He’s producing more oil and gas than any president I think, has allowed drilling, approved the Willow Project, etc. Yet the IRA was passed which will do some good — although that was very watered down. He’s done some other things which aren’t terrible.

Overall, I’m not super enthusiastic, but he’s infinitely better than going backwards. Rhetoric also matters on the world stage. The US official position wanting to do something about it is important— the President saying it’s a Chinese hoax is also important, negatively.

I honestly don't see any basis that a Biden administration would likely be better than a Trump administration — boethius

We just disagree here. There’s no question Biden is better. The judiciary alone is a reason. Baby steps towards climate policy is another— and there has been some progress. Compared to literally going backwards, I don’t think there’s much to think about. It’s also hard to believe Trump would do anything about Israel. If anything, he’ll go even harder with supporting the genocide. He may be less hawkish with Ukraine— that could be beneficial. Otherwise I see no redeeming qualities. He’s a danger we can’t afford.

I hope most of these trials are postponed till after the election. If Americans want to vote for a climate denying, election denying, neoliberal fraud — then let them.

If he loses, it’ll be nice to know that’ll be the last of Trump. If he runs again he’d be 82 and his businesses would likely be in shambles, having been abandoned by the establishment financially and unable to draw off as much money from average dupes. The RNC will choose someone younger as their nominee in ‘28. Maybe Haley, Maybe Desantis, maybe someone yet unknown.

If he wins, America will get a reminder of how awful he was, and it’ll be his last term. 2028 won’t come soon enough. Legislatively he likely gets nothing done, but will probably appointment more appellate and Supreme Court judges (it’s likely the senate flips to republicans this year). His actions will likely reinvigorate the left— again — and there will be a large electoral backlash in 2026.

My main problem will be the 4 years lost in climate policy — which we truly don’t have — and the fact that the judiciary will be all but Trumpified for a generation, making it harder to get anything done even when the inevitable backlash hits.

Too many posters on this thread are looking through glasses - lenses - encrusted with junk. The templates they see that they think are derived from the world are instead artifacts of defective optics. — tim wood

Weren’t you the one saying you consider October 7th to be the beginning of this and that nothing prior matters?

Yes but please do lecture us more about “defective optics.”

seem to think the Israeli have a choice. I think they don't, — tim wood

Yeah, it’s just a law of nature that one must murder 30,000 innocent people and starve a population, more than half being under 24.

But of course this doesn’t apply to Hamas. They had a choice when they murdered. Israel has no choice. Because they always have the best intentions.

I get it. I’m far from a supporter, of course. But I have no faith in the Republican Party, and am beaten down with the facts— which is that his supporters are large enough and loyal enough to push him through almost anything.

I don’t write the rules. — Wayfarer

Yeah, but come on. It’s over. He’s secured the nomination. The rest is formality.

But this wasn’t really meant too seriously. I don’t really care about the money or the bet. Just thought it was funny.

Trump’s candidacy is not official until the Nominating Convention in July in Milwaukee. And a lot could happen between now and then. — Wayfarer

Have it your way — I can wait a little longer :lol:

imagine the headline: ‘Republicans stick with Trump despite two impeachments and criminal conviction.’) — Wayfarer

If he’s convicted before then, this is exactly what will happen. They’ll stick with him.

The chances that he’ll be the nominee are practically 100%, in my view. Barring his death.

I'd still be willing to bet that Trump will not be the Republican candidate for the Presidency at the next election. — Wayfarer

Okay boys, how much are we wagering?

I’m saying he’ll be the nominee, almost certainly. I’ll give you 5:1 odds. — Mikie

I wouldn’t put it past him to run as an independent or Patriots Party or something like that, but there will be no need: the voters will vote him in as a Republican.

Also, when you say it won’t be Joe Biden as the nominee — care to bet on that too?

In both cases I wouldn’t mind losing money. — Mikie

All right then, you're on. I bet $10 at 5:1 odds. So $50 to you if you're right in either case. And yes, I'll be VERY happy to pay it, because I hope you're right on both counts.

[Edit: personal bets are probably looked down on here, so how about this instead: I'll donate $50 to TPF if you're right, and you donate $10 if I'm right. Deal?] — Mikie

US$10.00 payable to charity of your choice :up: — Wayfarer

Like taking more filthy lucre from a baby! :smirk: — 180 Proof

Alrighty boys…ready to pony up that $10 each to TPF?

I’m sad I won that bet. But I’m often right about these things… :razz:

The economic system we have divides all adult citizens into employers and employees.
Is this the best possible economic system?
Is this the best possible social organization?
Can anyone think of alternative arrangements that might work better? — Vera Mont

Yes— co-ops. There are plenty of examples, even in the US. The workers own and run the enterprise— they act as their own board of directors.

This is the difference between capitalism and socialism, in my view.

But I have given up hoping that sense and decency will prevail in the near future; rather, starvation, war, and greedy stupidity will do the job instead. — unenlightened

Okay. In that case I mostly agree in theory— in practice I have to adopt more optimism, otherwise I guarantee it happens. But history seems on your side, yes.

Don't take it personal, but I do get a bit fed up with being told my language — unenlightened

Seems like you took that personally.

I wasn’t talking about you, I was talking about the effects of defeatism. Maybe you feel it’s already over. In that case, fine— but I’m not sure that’s true yet. Seems a self-fulfilling prophecy.

The Game". A 1997 seldom-known, underrated gem starring Michael Douglas. — Outlander

A great movie. One of Fincher’s lesser known. Just re-watched it a year ago or so.

Funny the movies you choose to re-watch. As you get older, it’s as if you’ve never seen them— especially if you only viewed one time. It’s interesting how movies I once thought were the greatest thing since sliced bread (Shawshank Redemption, Thin Red Line) now becomes merely OK, while others I thought were good (The Insider, Jackie Brown) are now excellent. Guess it happens to everyone. An obvious observation, but whatever…

A weird response, given the 5 years worth of my posts. But have your strawman if you wish.

How is Diana Ross only 79?

If we can leave out terms like "point of no return", we won't play into their newest but equally stupid position against mitigation projects. — Christoffer

There’s plenty we can do to mitigate even worse effects. Some warming is locked in— and we’ll likely blow past 1.5 — but it’s not too late for 2C. Anything that can be done should be done.

When scientists warn about catastrophe, they’re mostly talking about tipping points. There’s potential that if these are triggered, we’re toast. There’s a lot of denial about that, even on these very pages, similar to those arguments about how nuclear war isn’t an “existential” threat because, after all, some human beings would survive.

But ignoring moronic stuff like that, it’s important to acknowledge the level of threat we face. But doomism and defeatism isn’t the answer.

Trump supporters calling out others as “dupes.” :rofl:

Drone footage raises questions about Israeli justification for deadly strike on Gaza journalists

No worries— they still had the best intentions. That’s all that matters.

All this was obvious long ago. No one took him seriously within the business community. He’s been good at leveraging debt and building an image. Now that it’s crumbled, his cult following is really all that’s left in terms of believing he’s been anything but a degenerate, sociopathic, narcissistic con man. The rest vote for him because they’ve been convinced Biden and democrats are worse, but who otherwise are rightly embarrassed by him.

Anyway — at this point if Trump wins it’ll be because most people stay home, thanks in part to Biden choosing to run again.

Either 7 more months of Trump or 4 years and 7 months of Trump. But either way, he’ll be history soon enough.

While the several genocide apologists continue their useful work for Likud on this thread, I once again remind the rational and humane participants — or at least those with some decency — of how the world, including the US, isn’t buying their bullshit.

New Polling Shows How Much Global Support Israel Has Lost

Net favorability—the percentage of people viewing Israel positively after subtracting the percentage viewing it negatively—dropped globally by an average of 18.5 percentage points between September and December, decreasing in 42 out of the 43 countries polled.

Half of US adults say Israel has gone too far in war in Gaza, AP-NORC poll shows

Must be that super-powerful Palestinian lobby. Definitely not the simple arithmetic and imagery. Too bad they trust their own eyes and not Israeli propaganda.

Anyway, I look forward to more world war II comparisons and justifications for collective punishment for the foreseeable future…

"The function of Existentialists values is to liberate humankind from craven fear, petty anxiety and apathy or tedium. Existentialists values intensify consciousness, arouse the passions, and commit the individual to a cause of action that will engage their total energies." — Rob J Kennedy

Pretty awful definition.

Heartwarming to see the genocidal, settler-colonial state of Israel becoming a pariah the longer their murders continue. Watching the flimsy excuses crumble is also encouraging.

Too bad for their racist apologists.

Ehhhhhh

Will is required in both camps to improve the situation regardless of partisanship, yes? — jorndoe

Yes, as was true of the European colonizers and the indigenous peoples. Sure, will was required for peace by “both sides.”

At best it’s truism, and trivial, at worst it’s just another attempt to ignore power inequality.

I’m more interested in why this has become such an issue at all. More culture war stuff. I seem to remember it starting with bathroom bills, though obsessions with gender were already around long before.

There’s two sexes, male and female. Gender is more fluid, but is in many ways grounded in sex. “Identifying” is one’s own business, but identity doesn’t magically change reality. Also, if sex is “assigned,” then we’ve officially rendered these words meaningless.

I can’t wait when this social media-created nonsense goes away. Treating the (statistically) rare trans person with basic respect and dignity should be a given. That sex is a biological fact should also be a given. The rest is a stupid waste of time, which I now have unfortunately contributed to. Seems unavoidable these days.

I consider Israeli actions to be simply a police action — tim wood

Yeah, 30,000 + people killed and a mass starvation underway — easily seen as collective punishment by anyone who hasn’t carefully avoided ideologically recalcitrant information for several decades — is just a “police action.”

It’s all Hamas’ fault. When Israeli soldiers kill the hostages, that’s not them pulling the trigger— it’s Hamas. When dropping bombs from planes — the pilots are all hamas. When orders come from Netanyahu, he’s also hamas. Netanyahu’s sick Likud ideology — his neurons, upbringing and education is … Hamas?

Yeah basically it’s Hamas murdering 30,000 people. Makes perfect sense.

Just to update anyone new on this thread, here’s the synopsis of 198 pages:

(1) When Israel kills people, it’s unintentional/accidental. In this they have a near perfect record.

(2) When Palestinians (whether Hamas or whomever) kill people, it’s terrorism. Why? Because even though they’re the oppressed people in this scenario — living for decades in concentration camp conditions under a superpower-backed colonial state — and have killed FAR less people, they do it intentionally.

So how many innocent Palestinian children need to die before Israeli actions count as terrorism/“bad”? No limit— because even if they dropped a hydrogen bomb on Gaza, it would be unintentional and, moreover, Hamas’ fault, since they live amongst the civilians.

Yes, that’s really what people believe.

What Israeli terrorism? […] I know of lots and lots and lots and lots of murderous Palestinian terrorism. — tim wood

No kidding. Your ignorance is your business.

Have you even read the news of what happened on 7 Oct.? What do you think happened on that date? — tim wood

Says the guy who has apparently managed to avoid all information about Israeli terrorism for 50+ years.

Yes, I know what happened. And because I’m a normal human being, I can very easily condemn the deliberate murder of innocent Israeli people.

I can also condemn the deliberate murder of 30+ thousand innocent Palestinian people.

The latter strikes me as worse, especially considering the perpetrators are also the oppressors.

maybe so many Palestinian women and children would not be killed if those brave Arabs, those courageous Hamas, would stop hiding under skirts and behind children. — tim wood

:snicker: Yeah, this was already covered.

Japanese and Germans — tim wood

Yep. Check.

Every death since Oct. 7 on the heads of Hamas and the Palestinians and every one of them unnecessary! — tim wood

And check. So the propaganda mentioned earlier has worked for you. Cool. :up:

I love the line of “Hamas could end this war immediately,” as if every innocent child Israel murders, deliberately and intentionally, is really the fault of Hamas. Like a law of nature. — Mikie

Saddam, by his actions, chose to be invaded." A weird denial of agency. — bert1

Right. A good example. Responsibility is removed, because what they do is inevitable, as if a law of mechanics.

Give the hostages back once Israeli have undone as much of the harm as they can, got all settlers out of West Bank, etc — bert1

I love the line of “Hamas could end this war immediately,” as if every innocent child Israel murders, deliberately and intentionally, is really the fault of Hamas. Like a law of nature.

But saying something like the above is considered absurd.

No wonder the world is condemning Israel. Easy to see through such stupid propaganda.

After all, none of this horror happens but for Hamas's attack on 7 Oct. — tim wood

And October 7th doesn’t happen but for decades of Israeli terrorism. But go on conveniently starting the clock if you want.

Their movement had hungered for this moment for years, but now, after Oct. 7, they felt it was just a matter of time before Jews would be living in Gaza again. "It is ours," said David Remer, 18. "[God] said it is ours."

Israel’s religious right has a clear plan for Gaza: ‘We are occupying, deporting and settling’

What a shocker.

You side with the team that intentionally murders the innocent. — BitconnectCarlos

And you side with the team that murders tens of thousands more innocents, intentionally — but they say it’s unintentional, so it’s all good.

So ask yourself who would be the Hitler apologist. Nazis were by far the greater force, but gave all kinds of justifications. According to you, if they said the magic word, “unintentional,” it’d be fine. No thanks.

The degree of personal brutality exceeds anything the IDF has ever considered. Hamas is much, much more brutal then the IDF — BitconnectCarlos

Yeah, too bad Hamas hasn’t learned to kill tens of thousands of people the right way.

Anyway, the Israeli terrorists have now killed over 30,000 people, mostly women and children. With more to come, thanks in part to apologists like we see here.

So when Ukraine loses this war, as they’re currently doing and bound to do, all that the US — the instigator of the war — will have to show is lots of profits for Lockheed Martin and company.

Guess when it’s Ukrainian lives it doesn’t matter. It’s easy to undermine peace talks and be uncompromising in that case.

but I really don't think it makes sense to declare that anything that exists is 'a being'. — Wayfarer

Good lord.

Being is a very complex word when it comes to philosophy — Abhiram

No kidding. I’ve only been discussing it at length for 5 years. So with all due respect, spare me.

Another 8 months of this crap. Overthinking it, overdramatizing and overanalyzing it.

Should take 30 seconds: vote Biden. 30 minutes to go vote. 30 minutes and 30 seconds. That’s all the time one needs. In a rational world.

Meanwhile, Arctic sea ice may be gone within the decade.

Bunch of animals. — RogueAI

Yeah, Hamas should double their efforts and take these animal murderers of 15000 children out. :up:

That you’re still going on about this is borderline insane.

A being is anything at all. It can also mean exclusively sentient beings. The latter is not what’s used in ontology, whether Aristotle or Heidegger. Trees rocks and ideas are all beings.

And yet the vast majority of the top universities in the world are in the U.S. — RogueAI

And…?

Nevermind, I’ll make it easy: most people don’t go to universities, and of those who do, few get into the best ones. Of that small group, most are morons.