Good one. I deeply miss Sagan. With Chomsky on his way out, I’m running out of heroes.

“Who’ll be my role model, now that my role model is gone, gone…He ducked back down the alley with some roly-poly little bat-faced girl.” — Paul Simon

Well this thread took an unexpected positive turn. Glad to see it.

Only disappointed the contrast between one’s internet persona and that of the real world wasn’t explored more. Oh well!

How fortunate we all are to be led down the shining path of empathy and compassion (and effectiveness) from an internet rando…who is exceedingly ineffective at teaching people about empathy and compassion, having never demonstrated it themselves. Do as I say, not as I do — always works great in teaching, especially on the internet.

—

That is quite the achievement considering how much the West has been exporting it's heavy industry to China. — unenlightened

I’m surprised by this too. Given that the Republican Party line is now “we can’t do anything because China is emitting more than anyone”, I wonder how this pans out— and what their next bullshit excuse will be.

I know it’s hypothetical. But it seems in keeping with a general trend.

We’ve disagreed before, yes. I don’t like Biden, but Trump is still worse. You feel differently. I still think that’s a mistake. I retract the insanity part — that was exaggerated.

That would be Trump. — Baden

It’s kind of interesting watching people convince themselves into voting for Trump, almost out of spite. As if that’s the answer to awful Biden administration foreign policies. It’s insane.

Trump had supported Israel's far right government to the very end, and no doubt would again. If you’re not familiar with his policies, there’s plenty of information out there.

True, Trump has mumbled all kinds of things lately because he likes that this is bad for Biden. Like the border problems. But like his four years in office, he would be giving aid and encouragement to Israel as well if in office. Maybe he would say some nice words about doing it better, etc — but so does Biden. That he would support a ceasefire is ridiculous.

https://www.wsj.com/world/china/chinas-carbon-emissions-are-set-to-decline-years-earlier-than-expected-cfc99dd2?mod=mhp

China’s Carbon Emissions Are Set to Decline Years Earlier Than Expected

China’s rollout of 300 gigawatts of new wind and solar power last year was for the first time enough to cover its new electricity demand

Oh that’s a hard one. Try…anything he’s ever said about Israel, and every policy decision he ever made re: Israel. Have fun.

Look, the other guy does it too." seems like a weak defence in law, and an even weaker justification in political discussion. — unenlightened

You painted it as two choices, between a supporter of genocide and a narcissist. That’s not true. The other guy indeed does it too, even more brutally. It’s not a defense of anything.

It's a hard choice - between a narcissist con man and a supporter and facilitator of genocide and ethnic cleansing. — unenlightened

Trump also supports genocide.

To deny that claim is to take an anti-capitalistic stance. — Hanover

Not at all. Unless one defines capitalism as exclusively the most destructive form ever known. Other countries are doing much better than we are, and they’re working within a mixed economic system too.

So it’s a false dichotomy. But should capitalism be abolished in all its forms? One can only hope.

There's a person trying to convince him that he shouldn't drive home drunk but there's also another person who's trying to just push that person aside and tell the drunk that he shouldn't listen, that there is no risk, there's no problem, just drive home and do it as fast as he can. — Christoffer

Because you weren’t nice enough.

Instead of saying “hey I agree this is important, but your approach may be counterproductive — anyway, here are some possible solutions” they focus exclusively on feelings. Why? Because they don’t understand the issue anyway, and refuse to take the time to learn.

Because it’s a public Internet forum, everyone feels entitled to a seat at the table, pretending to contribute with doozies like “this all doesn’t feel quite right to me, we’ll get out of it somehow” to “Science isn’t always right” to “It’s a sham” to “Climate activists are mean.”

There’s only two reasonable ways to deal with such people: ignore them or point out their stupidity, in the harshest way possible so that they hopefully go away. In the real world, there’s a very different approach. One I’ve been assuming for years and which works well. (Which is why it’s hilarious to be given “lessons” from Buddhist wannabes.)

How many of those lives do you actually appreciate? — baker

:lol:

What Is Climate Change?

Climate change refers to long-term shifts in temperatures and weather patterns. Such shifts can be natural, due to changes in the sun’s activity or large volcanic eruptions. But since the 1800s, human activities have been the main driver of climate change, primarily due to the burning of fossil fuels like coal, oil and gas.

Burning fossil fuels generates greenhouse gas emissions that act like a blanket wrapped around the Earth, trapping the sun’s heat and raising temperatures.

The main greenhouse gases that are causing climate change include carbon dioxide and methane. These come from using gasoline for driving a car or coal for heating a building, for example. Clearing land and cutting down forests can also release carbon dioxide. Agriculture, oil and gas operations are major sources of methane emissions. Energy, industry, transport, buildings, agriculture and land use are among the main sectors causing greenhouse gases.

The Earth is feeling the heat.

Humans are responsible for global warming
Climate scientists have showed that humans are responsible for virtually all global heating over the last 200 years. Human activities like the ones mentioned above are causing greenhouse gases that are warming the world faster than at any time in at least the last two thousand years.

The average temperature of the Earth’s surface is now about 1.1°C warmer than it was in the late 1800s (before the industrial revolution) and warmer than at any time in the last 100,000 years. The last decade (2011-2020) was the warmest on record, and each of the last four decades has been warmer than any previous decade since 1850.

Many people think climate change mainly means warmer temperatures. But temperature rise is only the beginning of the story. Because the Earth is a system, where everything is connected, changes in one area can influence changes in all others.

The consequences of climate change now include, among others, intense droughts, water scarcity, severe fires, rising sea levels, flooding, melting polar ice, catastrophic storms and declining biodiversity.

The Earth is asking for help.

People are experiencing climate change in diverse ways

Climate change can affect our health, ability to grow food, housing, safety and work. Some of us are already more vulnerable to climate impacts, such as people living in small island nations and other developing countries. Conditions like sea-level rise and saltwater intrusion have advanced to the point where whole communities have had to relocate, and protracted droughts are putting people at risk of famine. In the future, the number of people displaced by weather-related events is expected to rise.

https://www.un.org/en/climatechange/what-is-climate-change

[Worth posting the basics. I’ll refer back to it when the next goofy “skeptic” with 15 minutes of Fox News under their belts comes ambling along. “It’s the clouds, stupid!”]

Jury awards climate scientist Michael Mann $1 million in defamation lawsuit

More good news.

It’s very interesting doing a Google search of “climate change is a hoax.” Plenty of moronic stuff from all kinds of bullshit sources. So very interesting. At least for those far more interested in denial than anything else…but who definitely aren’t climate deniers.

—

Just as a basic head count on this thread:



@baker

And counting. Far more than I’d expect on this forum, even if a relatively low percentage. Oh well…

I don't care if we lose thousands of polar bears if it means the promotion of human life, the continued promotion of the capitalistic system, and the continued centralization of power in the hands of the United States. I don't believe in equality. — Hanover

This certainty says it all. :up: At least you’re honest about it.

Of course it’s millions of human lives, but whatever.

Honestly, the thing that stands out in my perception is your name— which I like— and the fact that you usually write well and are fairly unassuming. I don’t know much else about you though…

Then they formulate arguments around such biases and believe they are actually intellectually engaging with the subject matter. But they're not, they're using rhetorical twists and turns not to convince the other side, but to make sure they're never acknowledging themselves to be wrong. It's the same behavior as flat earthers and other conspiratorial behaviors. It doesn't matter that there's a truckload of evidence, that there are educators and experts everywhere that friendly provide their knowledge if they want it, or that the publications are out there to be found if they wanted. The reason has nothing to with what is truth or not for them, it has to do with them. — Christoffer

Yep. Which is why at the end of the day, all they have is feelings. When pointed out, they naturally accuse you of having nothing but feelings, and I’m rubber you’re glue, the end. It’s pointless.

But like I said before, this thread is like a fly trap. There’s overwhelming evidence and a de facto 100% consensus, it’s as established as evolution and gravity — and so when members bring their two cents to the issue, it makes knowing who to ignore on others issues very clear. So that’s useful. I say there’s been anywhere from 6-12 people so far. Saves me time.

I’m thinking of going to an evolutionary biology course and explaining to the professor that the reason the subject is “controversial” is because they’re too mean, not empathic enough, not effective in how they communicate, are too harsh or judgmental, etc. I’ll pretend to be a Buddhist monk like Thich Nhat Hanh. This way I can feel like I’m involved in evolutionary biology.

"The science". There is no "the science". — Lionino

Climate science is actually a thing, yes. But good job using the new line. I guess “the climate is always changing” is thankfully becoming passé.

That said, I actually find this place to be populated by above average intelligence. — L'éléphant

:chin:

There’s a dozen or so people who are certainly above average. But there’s a lot of morons too. But those dozen or so make it worthwhile— far more so than Twitter or and other social media sites.

But I will say that your view of me does not say anything about my character more than it does about yours. — Lionino

And yours. Because he’s right. So maybe it’s worth taking the feedback.

Exactly. Better to go under the radar.

I spent the first half of this week reporting in Iceland, and I came away convinced that the country provides a window into our collective future in at least three important ways.

Iceland uses remarkably few fossil fuels to power its economy and heat its homes. Instead, 85 percent of the country’s energy comes from domestically produced renewables, primarily geothermal power and hydropower.

Iceland can claim such a high percentage of renewables, the most of any country in the world, thanks to its unique geology. Its land sits atop an incredibly active volcanic zone, and six major geothermal plants tap that subterranean warmth to provide heating for almost all the country’s homes.

Drive around the countryside, and you can’t miss steam billowing from the ground between the majestic fjords. Just this morning, an active volcano began erupting in a town I visited only a few days ago.

Geothermal power also produces about 20 percent of the country’s electricity, with the remainder coming from a robust network of hydroelectric plants. The oil that Iceland does burn is primarily used to power cars and trucks, as well as the boats that comprise the country’s large fishing fleet.

Iceland a small and wealthy country that is unique, to say the least, in having such abundant geothermal and hydroelectric resources. But as we’ve recently reported, new advances gleaned from the oil and gas business are making geothermal feasible in new locales. And as solar and wind power continue to expand at a rapid clip, it may not be long before more countries are powering their economies not with fossil fuels but with local, clean renewable energy.

Iceland is living our future

Interesting stuff.

We’re going to get there — it’s just a matter of how quickly.

- Permitting reform is necessary to accelerate the building of transmission lines so as to transmit the energy from wind and solar (a large segment of which is restricted to certain geographical areas) to other parts of the country.

- Plenty of fossil fuel use will be needed to mine for necessary metals and manufacture wind turbines and solar panels and car batteries. But this is in the short term — once up and running, they’re practically zero emissions.

The inflation reduction act (IRA) provisions are starting to kick in this year, especially the rebates on heat pumps, which will be key to transitioning away from heating homes and commercial buildings with dirty fuels like oil and natural gas / propane. Rebates on EVs and solar panels will also be helpful.

In the meantime, the best strategy is still local involvement in conservation commissions, zoning boards, and city/town councils. Also advocating for going greener at one’s workplace — which, when cost effectiveness is emphasized, is fairly easy.

Anyway — some relevant information.

The world just marked a year above a critical climate limit scientists have warned about

Global warming surpassed 1.5 degrees Celsius over the past 12 months for the first time on record, new data shows, breaching a critical threshold that, if it continues, will push the limits of life on Earth to adapt.

The past year was 1.52 degrees hotter on average than temperatures before industrialization, according to data from Copernicus, the European Union’s climate and weather monitoring service. That 12-month average was boosted by the hottest January on record, which was 1.66 degrees warmer than the average January temperature in pre-industrial times.

https://apple.news/Af18UAJ-GRlKmFwVd55H3vA

I legitimately have no idea what people think of me. Members educated extensively in philosophy may recognize me as a dilettante, and these days I’m more visible in the Shoutbox than anywhere else so I’m probably thought of as a buffoon, and perhaps an arrogant one. — Jamal

Doesn’t track with my perception. You’re one of the better communicators here. Whether that’s true of your verbal skills I have no idea…

As for dilettante: aren’t we all?

I doubt most members think of me at all. — Vera Mont

This is not meant rudely, but for me this is true. But I think it’s only because we haven’t interacted much and you’re often reasonable enough that your posts don’t stand out. And perhaps it’s something about your name — for some reason it blends with so many others that I have a hard time remembering.

These days I suppose I'm just the second-in-command shoutbox class clown, next to Hanover. — Noble Dust

Yeah I do see your posts mostly in that thread, so it’s hard not to relegate you to chattiness.

I think people think of me as the Bob Hope of the forum. Which is great, as everyone loves Bob. — Baden

Yes, you’re definitely the Bob Hope of the forum.

If I die, nobody would truly care. — javi2541997

Oh stop. I’d care— I just don’t know you well enough to care deeply. That’s for real time interactions.



:up:

And proud of it!
It annulls your climate activism. — baker

I’m not a climate activist, and nothing I do “annulls” (sic) climate science in any way. Your worthless, unsolicited opinion notwithstanding.

This is pretty much how I feel most of the time here: — baker

Right— and despite all the feedback, you endlessly go around lecturing others on how to properly and effectively communicate, and how ignorant we all are for not changing our ways. Meanwhile, you continue doing the same thing time after time, apparently without an iota of self awareness or adaptation. Rather, you play a victim.

I’ll start taking your unsolicited advice seriously when you grow up. Until then, leave me alone. I have no interest in your opinions and haven’t once ask for them. Hypocrites are to be ignored, where I come from.

It's extremely offensive the way you assign to people stances they don't hold and then castigate them for them. — baker

You do the exact same thing, and have been doing so for years. When you acknowledge your own hypocrisy, others will take your feedback better.

Now if you have nothing to say about climate change, run along. This thread isn’t about feelings.

Yeah, my post was satirical. Nuclear weapons and climate change are very much worth being alarmed about — assuming one knows anything about them.

We're tired of transplanting our ideals of democracy to ungrateful foreign lands. — magritte

:rofl:

Sorry…carry on.

The degenerate con man/savior is the real victim!

Is Mikie wrong, or is everybody else wrong?
— Agree-to-Disagree

You are wrong. — unenlightened

“Everybody else.” Lol

Yeah that was just a joke. Plenty of people actually think this way though. Of course nuclear disarmament was important and the anti-nuclear proliferation treaties were important— the entire movement was and is important.

Meanwhile you have evidence of climate catastrophe all over, and your an alarmist if you think it’s a problem because hey, people thought the world would end in 2012. It’s a stupid argument for ignorant people.



Case in point.

See above.

You seem to think — Agree-to-Disagree

You seem incapable of understanding — Agree-to-Disagree

After making a fool of yourself repeatedly whenever you’ve made empirical claims, whether about temperature anomalies or land use for cattle, your perception of others’ abilities to think or understand is worthless.

Problem at the border. Yeah, sure. The numbers have increased, and there’s a traffic jam. The rest is conservative media frenzy and stupid political stunts by right-wing governors. They don’t want the problem solved— they just want to use it in an election year.

So, let’s call it what it really is: Racist fear mongers blaming a Democratic administration for an overblown problem.

I have researched global warming extensively. Here are a few of the many graphs that I have made. How many graphs like these have you made? — Agree-to-Disagree

And this is the level of discourse climate deniers engage in, folks.

And for the record, I’ve made many graphs in my life. Congratulations on figuring out how Google Charts works, and to your series of useless graphs.

If you and others really have nothing to offer this thread but nonsense like this and slogans from Tucker Carlson, why not simply find another hobby?

more mature and have more life experience — Agree-to-Disagree

Yeah, like you for example. Plenty of age and life experience. And yet you’re one of the most ignorant about climate change on this thread and have made no efforts to learn about it, apparently contented with your own unique denialism.

Talk about crappy role modeling. If you’re any kind of representation, it’s no wonder kids have no respect. Ignorance and denial isn’t respectable.

The issue is the negative attitude that many climate activists have toward people. —

Sorry, but I just have to highlight how incredibly ignorant, judgmental, and immoral this comment is as well. Now that’s in keeping from a posturing, sanctimonious hypocrite who feels entitled to lecture everyone about their appearance while their own approach is being rude, shallow, contemptuous, and instigating — so no surprise there.

But it’s also a common line on conservative propaganda outlets — one of their many ways to undermine the consensus and overwhelming evidence, delay political and social action, and foster hostility (we see this especially in the vitriol aimed at Greta Thunberg) within the environmental movement. How sad.