It seems im a serious minority but - gross lol — AmadeusD

What’s gross?

What a strange comment.

See How To Write An OP. Issue isn’t topic.

See site guidelines on posts:

https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/480/site-guidelines/p1

The lounge is the appropriate place for posts like the one moved.

I wanted to add this for anyone else that was curious about why it never came to fruition. This is from Bev Stohl, Chomsky’s long-time assistant:

The family line is that he’s resting. Let me add that he’s slowly recuperating from a June event following Daniel Ellsberg’s death. My guess is that he exhausted himself answering emails, probably forgot to hydrate, maybe forgot to sleep, walk around, take some deep breaths.

It was precisely June when he was supposed to get to the Forum’s questions. Just bad timing, unfortunately. Norman Finkelstein has said something similar. They’re all being very respectful of his condition, and won’t divulge anything beyond generalities like this.

Of course I very much wish him well.

They’re going to issue a broad ruling stating that he cannot be removed with blah blah blah. It’s foregone. They’ll find some reason — doesn’t matter what the reason.

Let him run and lose again. Fine by me.

Perhaps we are focused too much on Israel. — BC

Of course— this is a thread on that specific topic.

Perhaps, though, not as bad as some other wars carried out to achieve control over other territories and people. — BC

Maybe, sure— what’s your point though?

Trump incited an insurrection. True, he's good at plausible deniability, and through in some qualifications and vague terms. But everyone knows what was happening, to the point where violence was predicted and he was asked repeatedly to stop before January 6th. He's certainly partially responsible.

Rhetoric like "if we don't fight we won't have a country anymore," after months of "the election is being stolen," holding a huge rally the moment the votes were being certified. Doesn't take a genius to figure out what was going to happen. If he hadn't lied about a stolen election, if he hadn't whipped his loyal cult following into a frenzy and scheduled a rally, if he hadn't encouraged people to march to the capitol building, none of it would have happened.

He should have been convicted already. A part of me thinks that it shouldn't really matter that they'll be an uproar if he's convicted. Another part says, "Fuck it -- let him be." If the country wants to re-elect this asshole, it'll just empower a bigger backlash.

Having justification, however, doesn't make the bad behavior good. — Ennui Elucidator

Hamas gives justifications too. So does ISIS. So did the Nazis. According to the United States, the US has only made “blundering efforts to do good,” and is always acting defensively.

This is why apologists love to trot out Dresden or Hiroshima.

Do you see any difference at all between a) a willing perpetrator of genocide who intentionally murders members of a certain group because they are members of that group and b) a soldier in the opposing army who, in attacking that group, accidentally kills civilians of that group. — BitconnectCarlos

When are you going to wake up and understand that this entire dichotomy is nonsense. Propaganda, through and through.

The killing of 8000 children isn’t accidental — they simply don’t care. They don’t care about Palestinian lives. That’s obvious in the rhetoric and the actions.

So ask yourself: what’s worse, someone who murders children and recognizes them as victims for some cause, or someone who murders children for some cause but who sees them as irrelevant statistics?

I’m not in favor of killing children— even in the name of some great cause or defense or good intentions. If you believe it’s all accidental and the intentions are better, that’s on you. In that case, the US invasion of Iraq, Afghanistan, Vietnam, were all justified. For that matter, invading Poland was justified— Nazis gave plenty of justification, and of course claimed the best intentions.

There should, at minimum, be a ceasefire.

My choice would have been taken away. — GRWelsh

Right. But when you predicate these actions on bogus beliefs, it justifies it.

If the election was truly stolen — as these clowns believe because Donald Trump said it and because it’s what they want to hear (and also out of spite, since they’ll claim that democrats did the same thing in 2016) — then it makes sense to throw them all out and start again.

But since there wasn’t a scintilla of truth to that claim, as should have been obvious from the beginning, it really was an attempt to steal. That’s what they were doing. Doesn’t matter if they refuse to let go of their silly delusions.

Likewise the insurrection: people were egged on to “stop the steal,” to stop the certification of the stolen election. Wasn’t simply a riot— people were there, on that day, because the electoral college votes were being counted. That too was based on the same zombie lie.

So again: what will it take to rid people of their delusions? Probably nothing. They’ll go on believing it to the grave. They’ll come up with other reasons for saying it’s true. Like with God. So now it’s “they allowed greater access to mail-in voting” and so forth. See, that counts as a steal. Etc.

Most of these people don’t know or care— they just say it because they think they should, and they don’t want the libs to be right.

There are differences, and important ones. Abortion, climate, guns, you name it. But corporate America still dominates both. No labor party or socialist party like other countries, etc.

I think in the long run, climate stories would be #1. The wars and the strikes would be up there.

My propaganda diet is limited to what pops up on my X feed. — NOS4A2

Notice I mentioned Twitter. Which has become a huge cesspool itself. A poor diet indeed.

There is no right or left. It's uniparty all the way down. Trump has single-handedly upset it and its glorious to watch. — NOS4A2

Again, I’m not interested in his personality or that he insults everyone who doesn’t kiss his ass— I’m interested in policy. And when it comes to policy, he’s as much part of the uniparty as anyone. Same rhetoric, same personnel, same legislation.

I just can't be bothered to care about his moral life or what comes out of his mouth. What I oppose is the moral panic created in his name. — NOS4A2

But this can be argued about Biden too. Do you listen to conservative talk radio or read conservative newspapers editorials — to say nothing of cable news, Twitter, Rumble, podcasts, etc. You’d think the fucking world is ending because of some senile figurehead in the White House. So what? Of course it’s overblown, hyperbolic, sensationalized.

Yes, the left does it too. No question. Even if one believes it’s more extreme on the left, why let that blind us to the reality that it’s tribalism all around?

I don’t give a damn about Trump as a personality. I look at his policies and his influence on millions of Americans who take him seriously— and the results of such policies and rhetoric. The record is simply terrible. Biden isn’t far behind.

But the question stands.

Give it a rest already.

Why does it hurt so much to see a dissenting opinion? — NOS4A2

It doesn’t hurt, but as I said earlier, it would be nice if it wasn’t often insane and in such bad faith. You say you “test your intuitions.” Fine— but how about asking why those are your intuitions to begin with.

Why are you defending this con man? Why am I able to admit how much of a lying, corrupt sack of shit Joe Biden is, in agreement with much of what you say — about how the Russian stuff was largely nonsense and didn’t swing the ‘16 election, etc. — fairly obvious things for anyone not too caught up in the tribalism of politics; but you simply cannot admit the equally obvious statements about Donald Trump? Yet you go on pretending to be above it all? Above media propaganda, above groupthink, and so forth. Your relentless defense of this goon undermines your whole brand. It’s just bizarre and pointless. If there are real points to be made, why not make them clearly?

Eh, it’s a new year— figured I’d try to understand it once before mostly ignoring it.

Some regard the lack of approval as a sign of superiority. They understand what others do not. — Fooloso4

Oh there’s definitely that. Goes nicely with the normal victimization that the right are always peddling.

Doesn’t being a laughingstock who gets repeatedly embarrassed get tiresome?

:chin: That’s less a question for you than for the forum. Why do people like this go on? What’s the point?

Let’s move the discussion about political topics, etc., to feedback.

The blood lies on the instigator. — BitconnectCarlos

So Hamas was justified? No thank you. I don’t buy that.

Hamas uses 14-18 year olds as combatants. — BitconnectCarlos

And Israel kills them — of all ages, in fact. Approaching the tens of thousands.

But at least they do it without hatred in their hearts.

:up:

Hamas does it from hatred, sadism. — RogueAI

And Israeli’s killing 8000 children out of love and compassion.

As long as good invisible intentions are there, one can kill with impunity.

Moderators should rise above the fray, don't you think? — RogueAI

I do. Which is why I hold myself to a saint-like status and never lose my temper. Can’t speak for the other derelicts.

He said "boo-hoo" when someone pointed out the deaths of children in the Israel-Gaza thread. Compared to the insults the moderators themselves are tossing around in said thread, I think it's a pretty weak banning — RogueAI

Insults of the same level as

The Israel haters here (esp. the moderators) sure do come across as pricks sometimes. — RogueAI

Of course there is. Scratch a hyperbolist, find a useful idiot. — RogueAI

?

Plenty of leniency on that thread, for everyone. The difference is that you, for example, don’t have a long history of nearly exclusive trolling/negativity.

A quick perusing of his comment history speaks for itself, and anyone can look.

Hmm, just out of curiosity could you point to specific examples? — EricH

Here are just a few from the first page of his comment history:

Correct. It is a sucka play for nabbing baby-raping dimwits — Merkwurdichliebe

Apparently, you'be not been paying attention
— 180 Proof

I only have to hear the lame ass bitching and whining from you Hamas symps to know Hamas is fucked. — Merkwurdichliebe

according to an analysis of visual evidence by The New York Times.

:yawn: Blahblahblah. NYT has no credibility. — Merkwurdichliebe

That is because the climate change doom cult is full of shit. — Merkwurdichliebe

He almost never posted anything substantial or engaged in good faith, even if one was polite. But as mentioned, a response of “boo hoo” to dead children should remove all doubt about the kind of poster he was.

Good decision indeed.

We can each help a little to make it slightly less catastrophic, so inaction is not what I am suggesting, — unenlightened

Okay. I guess I misunderstood “resignation” there.

Why do you imagine the climate can be stabilised at 2°C or 3°C? — unenlightened

I’m going on various trajectories based on business as usual, stated goals, and best-case scenarios. If we’ve “improved” to the point where 4C is no longer seen as probable, then that’s some progress at least. 1.5 is gonzo— I know that. We shouldn’t let that stop us from pushing anyway.

The best estimate of the climate record shows that the last time CO2 levels were at the current level, the global temperature was about 6°C higher — unenlightened

Well that’s terrifying. So what am I missing? I don’t hear 6C being mentioned as a probable scenario much.

No, what I was referencing was your misuse of language in order to compare the "genocide" and "concentration camps" of Nazi Germany to the current day conflict in Israel as if they're literally the same. — Hanover

I can’t speak for Benkei, but I myself do not consider them the same as Nazis or the Holocaust. They are not the same.

As for the appropriateness of “concentration camp,” which many people immediately associate with Nazi concentration camps, I think the following is enlightening:

Currently, he said, there are 11 million people in Israel, the West Bank, and Gaza Strip, and that number will increase to 36 million in 50 years. The area between Beer Sheva and the northern tip of Israel (including the West Bank and Gaza) has the highest population density in the world. Gaza alone, he said, is already “a huge concentration camp” with 1.3 million Palestinians. Moreover, the land is surrounded on three sides by deserts. Palestinians need more land and Israel can ill-afford to cede it. The solution, he argued, lies in the Sinai desert.

https://mondoweiss.net/2023/11/influential-israeli-national-security-leader-makes-the-case-for-genocide-in-gaza/

This statement was made by Giora Eiland, former head of the National Security Council. He’s no Palestinian sympathizer, either. Is his description wrong?

An entirely different mindset is required, of mourning, resignation, and stoical compassion. — unenlightened

You lose me here. If we all simply resign, it’s certainly over. If we continue to act, something may happen — at the least we can mitigate the absolute worst. 2C is better than 3C or 4C. That trajectory has already changed. It just hasn’t changed enough.

The genocide — oh, sorry, I mean that very just “war” on innocent children — continues. Eight thousand dead and counting.
— Mikie

Boo hoo — Merkwurdichliebe

What a truly repugnant response.

The genocide — oh, sorry, I mean that very just “war” on innocent children — continues. Eight thousand dead and counting.

“Woops, total accident.”

“Good enough, carry on.”

But it does matter because there is a HUGE difference between WAR and GENOCIDE. — schopenhauer1

Right. And this is genocide. Sorry you can’t get your mind around it. Too bad.

8000 children murdered, and apologists are outraged over…the accuracy of “genocide” and “concentration camp.”

You, Benkie, and others who are perfectly capable of more precise language are falling back on terms applicable to the Nazi extermination of Jews. — BC

If it’s provocative, it’s to get people to understand the situation. Is there truth to it? Yes. Likud is not the Nazi party, however. But I don’t say Nazi concentration camps or say Gaza is Auschwitz, and never have. “Open air prison” is also accurate— but if using that term is preferable because it makes people feel better, I’m not interested.

You two, Mikie and @Benkei should be performing at a higher level of expression, especially since you are moderating, — BC

As I’ve said, this isn’t made up by me — I’m repeating Norm Finkelstein, who himself is citing the Israeli scholar Baruch Kimmerling. Based on what I’ve read, spoken to Palestinians about, and seen, I think it’s an accurate description. It’s not hyperbole .

As for genocide— sorry, but that’s exactly what’s happening.

acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group

I see no way around it when looking at the numbers. We can blame Hamas or excuse it all as “defense” or accidental or (the most inhumane of all, in my view) collateral damage. But that’s buying into a government’s justifications and narrative. Every government and every group, including those deemed terrorists, give some justification for their actions. Hamas does too— and we shouldn’t buy into it.

These numbers are unacceptable. Period. I don’t care what the reason is. You shouldn’t be killing 8000 children. That’s a fucking monstrosity and we should all be outraged.

Thousands of Palestinians dead after hundreds of Jews murdered because that is the calculus Hamas uses — tim wood

Ohh it’s really Hamas that’s murdering 8000 children, not Israel. Got it. Be sure to explain that to their parents.

But their choice is commitment to murder - not what I think but what they in every way make explicitly clear year after year after year after year. — tim wood

Israel or Hamas? Since the IDF are far more effective terrorists, I’ll assume you mean them.

What the oil companies believe or say has nothing to do with my views. But a cute attempt. — Tzeentch

Yet you repeat their propaganda verbatim. What a coincidence.

But anyway, you missed the point entirely. I’m not shocked.

Some low-brow attempt to shove me into the camp of the oil companies? :brow: — Tzeentch

Not at all. Just seems to me for someone claiming such skepticism about institutions, that skepticism about the propaganda of oil companies seems disproportionately thin.

And no I do not defend it. Nor claim it is entirely justified. I do claim to have an understanding of it. — tim wood

So you have an “understanding” of genocide. Yeah, I do too. I understand how savage and immoral it is, and that it should be stopped immediately.

8000 children.

For if nothing else, four generations of Gazans have shown they cannot govern themselves. — tim wood

They haven’t had a chance to govern themselves. Hamas was never given a chance, the Palestinian people were never given a chance. They’ve been living in an “open air prison” for decades, and have now had thousands of their children killed.

I’m sure they really give a rat’s ass about what you think they’ve shown.

It’s happening all around us, constantly — and trusting a graph doesn’t require much strain.

But it’s funny to have such doubts about science, yet repeat wholesale the demonstrable propaganda of oil companies. Apparently they’re trustworthy. Keen judgment.

All because some imbecile couldn’t bring himself to admit he lost. Trump’s never lost at anything.

Tens of thousands — millions — of fraudulent votes. Easy enough to check out if one actually takes the (predicted) claims of a degenerate con man seriously.

This is excellent. Well said sir.

But don’t you know it’s about control, and that the big Green lobby stands to make billions— and Bill Gates and George Soros and scientists have been wrong before and Greta Thunberg is a patsy and so on…

Cool. Keep up the good work rationalizing genocide as it unfolds before our eyes.

your first priority is the crime itself, and not its antecedents whatever they may be. — tim wood

How convenient.

But yes, even starting the clock on October 7th makes no difference: this is still genocide. Thousands of innocent bodies later — and growing — and you and others like you are still convinced it’s justified (or defensive, or accidental, etc).

I guess Hamas just needed better PR. Bombing refugee camps and murdering flag-waving hostages would then excused when they say “oops, our bad.”

Israel is the greater power, backed by the US for geopolitical reasons to the tune of billions of dollars. Gaza is a concentration camp whose people have been living with Israeli occupation and terrorism for decades. There is no parity here.

21,000 Palestinians killed so far. Including over 8,500 children and over 6,000 women.