• Aboutness of language
    Not sure what you mean by "without a reference"... — creativesoul
    There's no reference for the subject "it" in the sentence.

    "It's raining" refers to what is happening at the time. It's talking about actual events. It's what we say when water is falling from the sky in a particular form. — creativesoul
    I don't think 'What's happening at this time' is a subject that you can refer to because a subject is one word.

    I no longer think that statements refer to states of affairs. Statements only refer to the subjects where predicates can be ascribed.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u
    I don't like to read old threads. It's kind of like old news.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u
    I don't think @S likes your question: What is happiness? He even created a whole discussion about his dislike of such questions. https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/3231/the-charade/p1
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    There ya go with your ass umptions again.
    Good night.     — Amity
    My apologize, once again. A female here on this forum is like finding a needle in a haystack. Dear lady, please accept these :flower:
    Good night.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Amity
    Don't get any ideas. I only flirt with females. :broken:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    Funny. That was my message to you.
    Look back at your earlier suggestions to me, and then take them on board for your own topic/thread.
    Or not.     — Amity
    I never intended to preach anything to you. I only gave suggestions.

    So it wasn't a case of you being too lazy to do it for yourself, or to do the research...as per your accusatory reaction to me when I stated my preference.
    Never mind.     — Amity
    Look, I'm sorry about calling you lazy. I shouldn't have. It looks like now you're resenting me. Oh, well.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    Aw, don't give up on your good idea so soon. — Amity
    Who's said I've given up? I never give up. :cool:

    You wanted someone else to run with your idea; take up the challenge and create a good discussion ? — Amity
    Yeah, except that they can't do it, too busy, or are uninterested.

    What is it Elvis sang ?

    Don't procrastinate, don't articulate 
    Girl, it's getting late, gettin' upset waitin' around 
    A little less conversation, a little more action, please 
    All this aggravation ain't satisfactioning me…     — Amity
    Apparently not everyone who listens to Elvis does what he says. *cough*

    Just do it.
    Or not.
    No pressure...     — Amity
    Maybe you practice what you preach? Or more accurately, what Elvis preaches. :razz:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Amity
    :lol: Indeed, perhaps this discussion can be re-titled as 'The Laziness Thread'. Have an idea, but too lazy to write it out, and start a new discussion? You have come to the right place! Blah blah blah.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    For what's it's worth, here's a philosophical encyclopedia entry on happiness.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Amity
    Point taken. Can we go back to the heart of the discussion now?

    Indeed. That is why I would prefer someone else to start the thread. I like the idea of starting with your quote but I think that someone with greater knowledge and experience should lead it. — Amity
    Maybe you can be a little less lazy and do research? No pressure. Perhaps a good starting point would be to learn what other philosophers have said about happiness. Then you might have more confidence to create your own discussion.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Amity
    Yeah, I probably should learn to keep my mouth shut. :chin:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    You probably shouldn't let us in on that... :eyes: — Baden
    Oh, crap. I promise to but more effort into my OP's from now on, and stick to the guidelines.
    :fear:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Amity
    The guidelines aren't always enforced. The moderators should have deleted or closed half my discussions. (I shouldn't be telling you this :grimace:) Though I agree that when creating a discussion we should go with the guidelines even though they're usually not enforced.

    a) Genuinely interested in the topic you've begun and are willing to engage those who engage you.
    b) Able to write a thoughtful OP of reasonable length that illustrates this interest, and to provide arguments for any position you intend to advocate.

    In a) I might be willing but it can quickly become overwhelming if there is a lot of interest and input. — Amity
    Just engage in one or two people for a few posts. There's no obligation to engage indefinitely with everyone.

    b) In an exploratory thread, I would not be advocating a philosophical position as such. There would be no 'arguments' to support any non-existing position. — Amity
    @Baden can correct me if I'm wrong, but you only have to provide support if you have a position you are advocating. Like you say, you are not advocating any position, it's an exploratory thread, so no need for arguments. You can also frame your OP in the form of a question. Example: What is happiness?
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    Wow, all this work and we have yet to created a single discussion. I'm not sure it's worth the effort. Oh, well, I still think it's fun. :grin:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    What constitutes a 'good discussion'. It's quite easy to start one. The difficulty lies in creating a quality product. — Amity
    We can discuss that. I suggest posting a draft of your OP here, and then we can comment on it. We already had two attempts at it. Hopefully we can create at least one quality discussion out of this.

    The starter of a thread usually takes responsibility, no ? To fully engage... — Amity
    There's only so much a discussion creator can do. The rest is up to the participants.
  • Aboutness of language
    There are non referential truths. The contention in the OP is wrong.

    Statements like: It is raining. It's my birthday. It's 20 miles to New Jersey. These are all possibly true statements without a reference.
  • Aboutness of language
    Can we understand a sentence without the referring in a sentence being completed? — TheMadFool
    Yes.

    I don't think this conversation is going anywhere.
  • Aboutness of language
    I think we're not on the same page. What exactly do you mean by "refer"? — TheMadFool
    I think it means the same thing as 'about', but only in the context of language.

    Isn't language symbolic in that we words and everything we can do with it is the act of a symbol or string of symbols pointing or referring to something else? — TheMadFool
    Like Banno said, not everything is a name. I would add that not every sentence is a proposition.

    Subject-predicate statements point to both what is the subject and the predicate and the relationship between them. Am I wrong? — TheMadFool
    Only the subject part of the sentence refers. You can't disconnect the predicate from a sentence and say that it refers to anything.

    To understand meaning the process of referring must be completed right? — TheMadFool
    Only if you conflate meaning and reference.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u
    These are great questions to ask inside the happiness discussion we have yet to create. We still need to figure out what who's going write it, what's being written, and where it's going to be published.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u
    So you want to know why people are masochistic? I think it's a worthy topic of psychology, but what's the philosophical significance?
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u
    Masochism.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u
    Why are you so obsessed with spanking?
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    But going back to my question, why does spanking make some people happy and others sad? How is it possible that the same pain can have opposite effects on people? — Sir2u
    I don't understand your bafflement. There are plenty of examples where one action hurts a person while it benefits the other. A cruel person is happy to make an unfortunate person shriek with pain when spanking them.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Baden
    That really deep. Any suggestions about how I would add or modify the material you present here feels inadequate compared to the mastery and sophisticated use of language you've provided. :100:

    (Jeez, I sound like an English teacher now!)

    @S @Sir2u What do you think?
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    I guess that's why I don't write that many of them. I'm not much of a fan of filling up an opening post with too much stuff that doesn't need to be said. — S

    How to Stretch Your 1 Page Essay to Fill 5 Pages
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪S
    Too short. Baden will close the discussion as an example of how not to write an OP.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪S
    Hold your horses! We're still working on the happiness discussion. I mean, with so few people visiting the lounge we are kind of "understaffed" here.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    On a related note, I almost got myself beaten up by some guys last night because I thought that it would be funny to push a random button on the fruit machine they were playing as I walked by. — S
    :grin:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    99% silly, 1% serious? — S
    I was hoping for a more balanced approach.

    I often see this criticism, but it seems kind of sensible to me to clear the area before construction. Once we know what doesn't work, then we can progress more effectively, and build from a stronger foundation. You guys can provide the structures, and I'll test their hardiness, keeping a record of strengths and weaknesses. Then when I build my structure, I'll apply what I've learnt. My eventual success will arise as a result of your work. Keep it up! — S
    Best of luck to you! Indeed that's what this thread is about, taking other people's ideas and building upon it, and then presenting them as your own. That's kinda what I had in mind when I created my OP.
  • Aboutness of language
    I construe refer is the simple act of pointing. — TheMadFool
    You can refer to things without pointing. It's one of the wonderful things about language. But let's take your definition anyways.

    When I say ''Jesus was a Chinese'' I point to the subject-predicate of ''Jesus'' and ''is Chinese''. — TheMadFool
    How do you point to "is Chinese"? Predicates are are descriptions of subjects we already referred to.
    When you say Jesus is Chinese, you are not referring to a Chinese person, rather you are ascribing Chineseness to the referent Jesus.

    This truth value evaluation can only occur if the referring is complete beforehand. The process of referring, must occur earlier than truth value evaluation. Without the referring first we can't know the truth value of propositions. — TheMadFool
    I think this is false and is based on the assumption that you also refer to the predicates in the sentence, besides the subject. There's a difference between referring to and ascribing.

    Taken in parts, the only part of the sentence refers is the subject. Taken as a whole, the sentence refers to a state of affairs, only if true.

    So, reference can occur without truth. In fact it must occur before we can come to the truth. — TheMadFool
    I agree.that reference can occur without truth. The last sentence I'm not convinced of yet.
  • Aboutness of language
    So, reference is impossible without truth according to you? — TheMadFool
    According to the theory in the OP, yes. However, I'm not obliged to stick to the thesis in the OP. I can change my mind.

    Jesus was Chinese'' is about Jesus but, according to you, fails to refer to Jesus since it's a falsehood. — TheMadFool
    Jesus was Chinese is a falsehood about Jesus. According to the OP that sentence has no referent because it isn't true, but I'm not sure anymore. It may well refer to Jesus, and ascribe false properties to him.

    Also, we can make sense of ''Jesus was a Chinese'' can't we? If yes, and I think yes, then how is that possible without the statement referring to something? — TheMadFool
    I think you are conflating meaning with reference. What is the justification that they are the same?

    What about nonsense? ''square root of Tuesday'' is nonsense because it doesn't refer to anything and so is incomprehensible. — TheMadFool
    I don't think it has any meaning, but not because it doesn't refer.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    Well that sort of puts the dampers on things. — Sir2u
    It is sort of ineffable. But okay, I'll leave it out.

    Like spanking maybe? — Sir2u
    Like critiquing someone's ideas without offering any ideas of their own.

    Do you really think that walking around smiling at people would make them happy? I know some people that I don't want smiling at me. — Sir2u
    So you don't think smiling helps? I'm not saying you should smile at everyone, only when it is appropriate.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Wallows

    I'm sorry Wallows, it was a joke. I didn't mean to offend.
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u

    [Draft 1] Happiness is a the mixture of positive emotions that include liveliness, euphoria, and satisfaction, and is mostly ineffable. It's what people experience at marriage and the birth of their first child. A kid feels happy at the water park. An adult is happy at the sight of her paycheck. What makes one person happy can put one person down, and happiness at expense of another is actually rather sad.

    You ask what can we do to make people happy? Surely not something extremely contagious? Yes indeed, and that is smiling. [/Draft 1]

    Thoughts? Would you like to add or change anything? Scrap it?
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    Would you like to define happiness and then explain how to make people feel like that? But we could also look at the lighter side of it. — Sir2u
    Good idea. Any experts on happiness on this forum? Feel free to mention (@) anyone you have in mind. Definitely not @Wallows. :lol:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    I moved some of the comments to the Shoutbox to keep us more on topic here. — Baden
    Thank you!

    I can't guarantee the discussion will be taken seriously though. It's one of those that could go either way. — Baden
    It's the lounge, and it's okay if it's not a hundred percent serious. :up:
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    Seriously though, what would be nice is a topic about making people happy. — Sir2u
    How would you make that philosophical? Or is it a lounge type of thread?
  • What discussions would you like to see?
    ↪Sir2u
    ↪S
    Please guys, take your fight back to the shoutbox where it belongs. This was supposed to be serious thread. Don't ruin it.
  • What's grinding your gears?
    You're missing an 'e' at the end, by the way. — S
    There's a middle finger missing in the emojis.
  • Aboutness of language
    ↪TheMadFool
    "The Harry Potter" part of the sentence refers to the fictional character Harry Potter, but taking the sentence as a whole, "Harry Potter has a glass eye" unsuccessfully refers to Harry Potter having a glass eye.
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