I do like the imagery a lot, but I was thinking of a frame like a scaffolding (mentioned both in the OP), like the beginning outline of a structure. Carpentry imagery. For I'm a builder of worlds.

Well, orange is named after the fruit, and not the other way around. Place, some more ah-hem... hunter gatherer communities still identify colours with the things. "like a tree", "like a tiger, "like a butterfly" etc. Some, maybe an orange is orangeness...

Kind of from left field. I never suggested or hinted at a complete lack of frames... just hoping not to get too wed to any particular ones, and just seeing everything through them forever and ever until the end of time. I like the idea that I can move around, without getting stuck, not that I can jump without any ground.

I figured that it was just semantics. Didn't mean to overstate the case. You're right, the moment you get complacent, it gets you!

It's like the difference between crystallized and fluid thinking. Fluid thinking operatives in the unknown, and crystallized in the known. The latter is more just memory, and as we age we lose the former more and more. Everything just becomes that which has come before. We begin to know everything, unfortunately.

I studied a book about that general idea back in the day, in Philosophy of Science - 'The Structure of Scientific Revolution' by Thomas Kuhn. But the lecturer said that in many ways Kuhn was simply building on Michael Polanyi, who had come up with the idea of 'tacit knowledge' or 'implicit knowledge'. — Wayfarer

This is a good example, see I would say that phronesis sounds like the same thing as "tacit knowledge", as I've read about both of those things, and they sound similar to me. When I talk of frames, or when I talk about something about me, then I kind of piece a picture together to point at it, but there is a lot of "kinda" involved, because it is never quite representative of the thing. Like painting a picture is never precisely the same as the scenery, but comparing pictures I've seen, and copies, or ones done in different mediums doesn't suffer thing problem, they can look the same to me. When it comes to places I've been, or things I can do, the explanation, or representation can never be mistaken for the real thing. When dealing in symbols, and ideas, this gets lost I think.

Well, I wouldn't want to just think that everything I see is the same things as what I've already seen and know... that doesn't lend itself to learning much that's knew. I think that's what you're doing here.

I was thinking of them as more general principles, that one sees everything in relation to. One surely can be play, and maybe another one serious business, and one can come up with hundreds of things in relation to those, but not hundreds of entirely different modes, or frames within which one operates and sees everything in relation to. Even deeper than that, there is a purpose of play, and a goal of play, just like your serious business.

Just think about people posting here, don't you notice like the same general theme over and over and over again? Seems like everyone I talk to, and everyone I read does this too. Maybe I'm just superficial, rather than deep, and there is a lot more to people then just the few things I hear them talk about, but I also notice in myself that I'll get captured, or occupied with some theme, and then start to piece together the world around it. Every time I get out, they just pull me back in!

I have this thing, where I notice that people often say pretty much the same shit for years and years... I worry that I'ma start doing that, but I like to change things up. I like to believe that what I say now, although many of the specific pieces are older than the hills, are different things, from an entirely different perspective than years ago. I'd like to believe that I can keep that up, and keep moving around.

I find that for many a peep, once you'd heard or read them enough, you feel like you get the gist of where they're coming from, and see that they only really have like half a dozen ordering principles by which they interpret information, and they're steady over time, even if they say different stuff. Their bag of tricks.

Why is metacognition a benefit? I'm not just continually asking these questions... but the point is that you are eventually going to have to say for no real benefit at all, or because it improves your health or well being in some sense. You can dispute the gravity, and completeness of the term "cure", but you'll still end up somewhere close to remedy. What other reason could there be for it?

Why is it a good practice?

However, this at times may require someone to quit their job or profession or career, which is not that uncommon. — Rich

That's what I did... and looking for a job and suffering for it, but I got some distance away from my mom, and got rid of my little sister. She was also trying to dump my little brother one me too. I couldn't even go home, I was breaking, and needed to gtf out of dere. I miss having money, lol, but other than that I'm calmed down a whole lot. Need to get my shit together by 40, or I probably never will...

It's not clear or obvious, especially when just contemplating, or talking, which I'll polarize for my purposes. Contemplation in my view is to wonder, to take apart, to dismantle certainties. Yapping on the other hand lends itself to entrenchment. We feed off of other people's feelings, and beliefs, so that when we wish to persuade someone, or we are questioned about something, we immediately dig our heels in, and over-state our cases. It's both a degree of competitiveness, but also if we take them too seriously, than their doubt is our doubt, they're the alter-ego, the contrarian. Just as dangerously, if not more dangerously, we latch on to agreement, praise, and things like that and become more and more certain the more faith and support that we can garner. Your persuasion is my persuasion. All of this muddies the shit out of the water, and we get lost among the crowd to ourselves.

Mindfulness, and attention I think is the cure. What is your true feelings, and views? You can't just look inside yourself and find out, you'll just see all of the talk, the doubt and confidence of your interactions, and your head is full of other people's voices. You gotta watch yourself, and see how you behave, what you do, and then pivotal moments will arise where you'll seemingly do something, or feel some way, and it will be counter to your idealization, or your deprecations, and you need to not dismiss it in favor of pre-conception.

We judge, and know what is judged, and in favor of what, and we either wish to excuse ourselves, or take more responsibility than what is due, and you have to basically be detached, and go with your first impression, and not your reaction to it.

That's what I think. It's difficult to hold on to stuff, and difficult to not entirely be consumed by, or become the various emotions and thoughts that arise. Like one hand washing the other, you always have to be the one watching the actions, watching the thoughts, watching the feelings.

Out of curiosity, can you expand some on dat?

How radical is the alterity? I think that it's possible to occupy the same frame, and perception itself will fall in line. Though, since it can never be literally checked... it may always rely on some fairy dust and happy thoughts. :)

That's true too. The "objective view", or the scientific view is an inherently unself-conscious one. It removes the first person, and renders everything in the third person. One is then, as you say, just the narrator of the truth, type deal. It isn't about you. It's just the ways things are.

I think of rose tinted glasses as like dispositional attitudes towards things that we're seeing. I once saw a ted talk where buddy said that we all have road maps that take us to certain emotional places, so that optimists find the pathway to optimism, pessimists find the pathway to pessimism etc.

I thing that even further than that, frames organize the very details of what we're seeing, making somethings stand out, and others remain in the background, and the same information doing different work in our frames. Luckily for this, the glasses analogy still works, they just need to be thicker, which is what they call "goggles". Which is usually what niche fans call their vision which allows them to see their niche everywhere, like furry goggles let them see the ancient egyptians as furries!

Lucky for me, I'm super neurotic, and self-consciousness, self-awareness is the upside of neuroticism.

If someone can understand things from another person's perspective, then they're pretty much fucking magic... I don't have high hopes for an objective view.

I think that morality is the most true, or most certain thing. I might make a thread about it, but we're dual hemisphere, the left hemisphere does the individuation, negative emotions, model construction. The right hemisphere does whole picture, positive emotions, model destruction. Artists and musicians show a greater connection between the hemispheres, and creativity is correlated with their communication, rather than it being any one of them. Diabetes and such health problems are associated with years without a swap of dominance, as you breath out of different nostrils even while one is dominant, and the two lungs also do different things. The left one lowers blood sugar, and uses less oxygen. Meditation practitioners are also shown to have a greater connection between the two.

Point being, that the descriptions of spiritual experience, and drug use are correlated with right hemispheric functions. I think that without the unindividuated self, without the breaking down of the walls between self and other, we can't really even learn from others, can't really understand them. It's where all of the unknown which gets incorporated into the known comes from.

I think that the equality of self and other, the warnings against hubris, hypocrisy, and the notion that we're all equal is true in the most practical, biological, and health sustaining senses imaginable. Culture is founded on these notions, and our ability to mimic, and learn is based in these ideas.

The idea that the qualitative is not as real as the quantitative is deeply misguided, and literally a half-brained scheme...

If everything reduces to one thing, then it doesn't matter what we call it. Physical, holographic, green cheese or whatever. It all reduces to the same thing, and it would be meaningless to call it some distinct particular thing from experience, unless we're simply using that one thing as the only true thing, and using it to discredit everything but it. It's to give this one particular aspect, or object of experience a sacred place among the others, like it's the window into the real, whereas everything else muddies the water by being less like it.

I think that that's a less than useful way to look at the world.

I think that socially "structured" is better than "constructed". Although the latter no more implies from scratch, or out of nothing at all.

Everything reduces to experience in one way or another, in my view, but the way it is all put together, and how we should feel about it is structured, as well as the scope of it. Stereotypes are in some sense true, but it's their scope, and origin which can be easily misplaced, or misapplied.

I also don't agree that gravity is any less socially structured than anything else that we think about. The very fact that we use it so often as a firm, solid foundation to contrast the flimsy, or less credible alludes to its function and apprehension far beyond a physical force.

A whole lot is genetic, and epigenetics can influence gene expression, and thus behavioral traits within a single generation. Original sin, what what.

My Dad is a big guy, and when I was younger he had a parathyroid tumor, and uncontrollable anger. My mom cheated on him a lot, and he'd beat them up. He was super physically dominant, and the only fear he had of other men was going too far, and killing them. My older brother became somewhat of a pyscho on the account of various abuses, but also I believe that this influenced us both. He though used to beat people up all the time, and was a criminal that spent a few years in jail for theft, and assaults. See, it doesn't even take size strength, or skill to beat almost any one up, it simply takes a willingness. Most people aren't, and at best will grapple you, but are generally too squeamish to actually hit anyone, and don't want to be hit themselves. Unless people are drinking, and suffered some physical abuse themselves as children, they almost certainly are not willing to do much.

I was always afraid of hurting dudes. My mom is also crazy, but not in a self harming way, more that she is probably some kind of autistic, extremely disagreeable, and self-centered. Part of the reason why I'm afraid to over-estimate myself, or consider myself beyond the norm, is that she does think that, and even identifies as something other than human. Like alien, or something. When you don't identify with other humans, you can treat them fundamentally different than how you expect to be treated. This is what allows her to feel find about being manipulative, and using others as tools to get the things she wants. She also gets super ultra upset if you cross her self-perception. She actually isn't nearly as bad as she was when she was younger, but I still wouldn't want her as an enemy. Just like a few months ago she got into a feud with her neighbor, because her property was going to shit, and she wasn't taking care of it, so she called the police on him about his dog, and was actually planning to kill it maybe (he moved over it). Also everything is about her. If I have a problem, or want to talk to her, she was turn it to what she cares about within two words, and it's difficult to get her to listen to anything, and she doesn't know anyone at all. She has super delusional perceptions of herself and others...

I also myself have periods of like psychosis where I think that I'm king shit of turd island... but at least I've incorporated her traits into me, and don't deny them. The rest of my siblings have turned into my dad, super low self-esteems, and all got super fat. I'd rather live on the edge of sanity than lose all sense of self-worth.

I did have me a girl friend for a brief period last time I lived in town before moving into the middle of nowhere into an embarrassing shithole and putting all of my resources into helping my family again. I also used to date sometimes in Halifax, though never got anywhere really then. I did that last time, and tried to convince myself that I was in love... she was like terrifyingly hot. She couldn't even look at me, and I couldn't talk to her... lol, it was great. I should have just put up with all of her shit, but couldn't. She was flaky as hell, late or simply didn't show up half the time, only was up at night so that I only got to see her at like 11 pm at the earliest, and also was an isolationist with no friends. So hot though... she was always giving bullshit excuses, constantly talking about exs, and her past, and was emotionally manipulative, and never expressed any negativity directly, but passively. So I started just pointing it out like I read that you were supposed to, and then just dropping it and saying "guess I'm just paranoid" when she denied it like I read online would be a good strategy, and that kind of just pushed her away. I eventually threatened to leave over it, and that was a big mistake, as she like convinced me not to, and then left me like three days later, lol.

I had a great time with her though, it was a fantastic time. I may have been pushing for emotional intimacy too quickly. It's ridiculous to me that people want physical intimacy immediately, but are often super okay to never get too emotionally open with you.

I do expect it to make a big difference in my life, because it did before. I get invested though, and have a hard time suppressing my emotions when I get worked up. I reveal my dark side a little too quickly.

It does have a whole lot to do with breaking old habits. Before we know any better, or when we're still quite impressionable, we establish a lot of destructive habits, and incorporate the destructive behaviors of those around us. I've worked pretty solidly since I was sixteen though. It has always just been surviving to me.

I drink mountains of coffee. See, I'm the opposite of that, I was sick as a kid, and even though I was starved I was overweight, had a herniated bowl, which probably would have gotten gangrene and killed me by now if not for modern medicine. Also meant chronic stomach pain growing up, that I didn't even know wasn't normal. I was on puffers, and they thought I had like a lung or heart problem, and I was six all of the time too, and missed a lot of school. I self-diagnosed it at 22, got day surgery, and was fixed. Without the feeling sick all of the time, I was able to start doing more physical stuff, and work on getting better, and it took awhile, and I didn't really start even trying to improve until I was like 26, and I just got better and better. So I've actually never felt younger, and since I freed up my center line recently, I've really improved a lot.

Pretty hairy though, need to do some grooming, and cleaning myself up.

We do actually learn how to become adults from our parents, as they're pretty much the only steady adult influences that we really get a close look at when growing up. As a kid you may think you're just like your peers, but by the time you're all thirty, you'll find out how untrue that is. Their relationships will begin to mirror their parents with work, partners, and friends. As well as what kind of order their keep their houses in, and lots of different things. I was pretty much left to my own devices from about eight and up, and my parents are isolationists with no friends, my dad never pursued another romantic relationship, and my mother only did for financial support.

All of us became isolationists by thirty, even the ones that were super social and hung around everyone, and stayed basically out constantly from the time of being kids and never came home. I was always that way, but things are like reversing with me. I started out older, and keep getting younger and younger, at least physically. My physical discipline just keeps improving, and I've been alone so long that all I want is good connections with people now. To have my own family. I feel like I know what they did wrong now, and can avoid it, but there is this sense of where you come from, and a fear that you'll be as harmful, and take advantage of other people's good natures, and I was treated pretty roughly by everyone growing up, so I have this sense that I'm worse than everyone, I guess.

I always expect that everyone will eventually discover what a dick I am, or I feel phony, or like I'm tricking them if they think I'm anything other than a shit... lol.

I tend to avoid looking at people in public directly, but I smile at them when I do usually. It's actually getting easier, and less awkward over the past couple of years. Everyone is nicer to me than ever. A running girl said hello to me the other day when I was out for a walk just randomly on the street. I said hello back and smiled but was wearing headphones, and she just kept going.

I don't know what to say. I should definitely try harder to move ahead in life. Can't go off to school because that shit ain't free, need to get any job at all, and then try to get into that. I should try writing some, even articles and try to get them published. Try to monetize some of my skills, and get involved more with others. Can't string pop bottles together and sail off to success island, but I could definitely be trying harder, and if I don't get shit together by 40, I almost certainly won't. I'm getting old, and feeling the pressure for sure.

I just don't try hard enough, I guess because I'm self-loathing. I really don't have much of an excuse, can't succeed if you don't try. I need to do more creative things, actually get a job or work up to it.

My fall back plan is to just write my magnum opus and be vindicated in generations to come...

Well, I can't really say much about what the hypothetical joe blow thinks about this. A brain absent a mind is a non-functional brain, I imagine.

Everything is kind of a mixture of things, and all entangled up in the environment, and we differentiate it. Water and beans too. I don't think that coffee is special in this regard.

I don't know what you meant than, that object permanence isn't object eternalism?

As I said, I don't buy that "molecules", or atoms, or quanta are more real than apples. They reduce to the perceptual world, and are just a reformulation of the naive view. Like one has gone deeper by looking closer at their smaller parts, or counting bits, or energy outputs...

Most people are not physicalists, or materialists, and believe in an incomprehensible world beyond the manifest. I think that in strawmaning such a naive view, the supposed alternative ain't much more sophisticated.

There is object permanence. Does it look like anything sound like anything, taste like anything absent those sensuous modes? Of course not, that's tautologous, but beyond that any conception of them is necessarily empty, and modeling them in some other way always reduces to the sensuous for comprehension of what is even being discussed, and never bridges that gap. The thing in itself, is always out of reach. I like the idea of undifferentiated oneness, chaos, and things, and don't think that anything represents it better than negation.

Worse than that, I think that it's even dangerous to think that way. If one thinks that ideas get them closer to the true true than sense (the only place new information even comes in from), then sense will become less significant than models, and they'll begin to pay more attention to their thoughts than their sense... and the real world will become less and less real, and ideas will become more and more real... and that ain't good.

As I said, I doubt that anyone holds such a naive view -- but I think that it's important to appreciate that everything you know about cups, and what's being talked about cups comes from your personal experience of cups, so that one doesn't get a better understanding of them, let alone could even apprehend what is being talked about at all, except through that experience. So I just don't buy that some mathematical quantification of states of the cup is somehow more real. I think that the cup on my coffee table is immensely more real than any indistinct general cup, let alone a mathematical description, at least it never can be to me, or my comprehension. Nor to anyone's.

I don't feel that one gets closer to metaphysical reality, the further removed from sense, or experience we go into abstraction. I really don't think that we can even really understand abstraction as all without representation.

Not really... "quantum" is derived from "quantity", and is just a quantification, or a mathematical representation of the minimum values involved in a physical state. We would be hard pressed to quantify a physical state having never observed it, and there is no perceptual levels involved at all in quantification, it is, as I said, a higher level of abstraction, further removed, not closer to reality. Although many would argue that math is more real than anything else, that is a view to hold. Imagining that "quantum states" are at all about observation is like imagining that you can see what "one" looks like without there actually being one of anything at all, but just "one" as the pure abstract entity.