Maybe it has something to do with the information stored in their brains. — Harry Hindu
Why would you feel the need to represent things that you already observe and if some reader/listener doesn't exist yet? The whole point of representing things in the world is to communicate with others. If there are no others, then why would you feel the need to represent things - for who, or for what purpose?Suppose there was no written language. And let's say the idea occurred to me. Why can't we represent the things we talk about visually, instead of audibly? No alphabets exist. How would I go about it? It's possible I would make symbols that represent the things I want to communicate to the reader (not that the word "reader" would exist yet). Simple drawings when possible. Likely also many symbols whose resemblance to what they are supposed to represent is not always terribly obvious. — Patterner
Information is everywhere causes leave effects. Which information is relevant is dependent upon the present goal in the mind. If you had the goal to ensure the human race continues to exist beyond the Earth being consumed by the Sun you might start building and testing rockets to make humanity a multi-planetary, or multi-solar system species.I know that in a few billion years the Sun will expand and consume the Earth.
Not really sure how to make use of this information, but I know it all the same. — Michael
Yet people with different eyes and different brains respond similarly and sometimes not, so you haven't yet accounted for the difference in why some people are influenced by some speech and not others. Maybe it has something to do with the information stored in their brains.Slightly different biologies. Your eyes are not identical to my eyes and your brain is not identical to my brain. — Michael
Which means that an individual's gender is determined by society, not by the individual like sex is.Gender refers to the socially constructed roles, behaviors, expressions, and identities of girls, women, boys, men, and gender-diverse people. It's a distinct concept from biological sex, which refers to physical attributes like chromosomes, hormones, and reproductive organs. Gender is a social construct, meaning it's created and shaped by society and culture, with norms and expectations varying across time and different societies. — prothero
Yes because in speaking of social differences, we are speaking about differences in societies. When speaking about differences between a man and a woman, we are speaking about biological differences. To conflate the two would be practicing sexism.Do you deny that there are social differences between men and women, independent of their karyotype and genitals? Are we are gender-blind outside of reproduction and reproductive health? — Michael
If an artificial human isn't a human then artificial penises aren't penises.Androids aren't people, they're machines. — Michael
Some dude who just woke up one day wanting different body parts for no logical reason, that's just not something that needs to be taken seriously.
— Outlander
It's also not something that actually happens. — Michael
You are the one that has created the circumstances of gender being this open-ended thing that can mean anything - as long as it's not sex, so it isn't a straw-man until you provide some concrete examples.It doesn't show anything specific, which is what I'm asking for.
— Harry Hindu
Because there is no specific thing. — Michael
How is 1) achieved ifMartin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and pre-schoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of five to seven years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity", fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat. Barbara Newmann breaks it down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference.
?In the very early years of human development – and in particular at a time when we're unlikely to even be aware of sex organs different from our own — Michael
That they are a man. Why else would they be calling themselves a man? And yes, many trans-gender people do not like the trans- qualifier. They actually consider themselves a man or a woman.So what does the transgender man falsely believe himself to be? — Michael
Said by someone with a complete lack of understanding of what it means to be a libertarian.Free speech absolutism clings to a libertarian ahistorical fantasy: — Benkei
Yes, but why does each person respond to those same lights, sounds, smells, etc differently?Light, sound, smells, etc. The very fact that we sense and respond to the external world is only possible because the external world causally influences us. — Michael
Exactly - which means that because people respond to the same lights, sounds, smells, etc. differently there must be some other process between some speech being made and one's actions that manifests as that difference in actions after hearing a speech.Yes. Determinism is the inevitable consequence of eliminative materialism. — Michael
I just want to know if you accept that a transgender man with an artifical penis should use the men's bathroom.
It's a simple "yes" or "no" answer. — Michael
It doesn't show anything specific, which is what I'm asking for. You were more than happy to provide specific examples of sex. Why so reluctant to show just one example of gender as something non-biological? Sounds like someone with a sex fetish that has no idea what they're talking about when it comes to gender and are just using it as cover for their real intention of being closer to women with their pants down.I've linked to various articles that explain gender, gender roles, gender expression, and gender identity. Do the reading. — Michael
What if there was an android with an artificial penis, which bathroom should they use? Please don't bring up the slippery slope. YOU are the one that used the term, "artificial", so you should define exactly how you're using it. I'm the one saying it's not any kind of penis, artificial or natural.I’m not conflating gender with biology. I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.
Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw. — Michael
And some people that are not transgender have had genital surgery, as you have pointed out and apparently forgotten. So what does gender status have to do with using the bathroom if gender has nothing to do with biology? Why is it so important that trans people get to use the bathroom rather than the non-trans that have had surgery? It must be because you continue to conflate sex with gender in one moment then claim they are separate in another.No, I'm not. I am simply acknowledging the fact that some transgender people have genital surgery. — Michael
Thanks for supporting my argument that the number of trans-people that conflate sex and gender are growing and you're just parroting this conflation (delusion).According to this, 25-50% of transgender men have genital surgery and 4-13% of transgender women have genital surgery. — Michael
Aren't they saying they are psychologically and culturally male/female? Isn't that the point of contention here? I'm still waiting on specific examples.No they're not. The transgender woman is fully aware that she is biologically male and the transgender man is fully aware that he is biologically female. — Michael
Which is to say gender is anything other than sex. Gender = not-sex. That's helpful. :roll:There's no list of necessary and sufficient conditions. — Michael
Your conflating sex and gender again. If I said that intersex people can use whichever bathroom they want, then why would their gender status matter - if sex and gender are separate?And what about trans people who have had genital surgery? — Michael
By having genital surgery the trans-person is asserting their gender is determined by their sex.In most cases one's gender is determined by one's sex, but given the existence of transgender people – and societies with more than two genders – this is not a necessity. — Michael
I already said that intersex people can use whatever bathroom they want. People that have had genital surgery are effectively intersex because they still retain some of the sex parts they were born with.Because that’s what we were both discussing. You said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts."
I just want to understand how artificial sex parts factor into your separation. — Michael
You see, you are the one going on about bathrooms when I'm talking about the relationship between gender and sex. You're putting the cart before the horse.It’s a very simple question, Harry. If you are in charge of deciding who is allowed to use which bathroom, then would you require that trans men who have had genital surgery and now have an artificial penis use the men’s bathroom or the women’s bathroom? — Michael
You are.I’m not.
You claimed that the reason we have separate bathrooms for men and women is because men and women have different sex organs. And it is a simple fact that some trans people have genital surgery. So I’m asking you which bathroom they should use after having genital surgery. — Michael
If you're not conflating gender and sex then why are you calling people who modified their sexual biology trans-gender?I’m simply pointing out that if we divide bathrooms by sex organs then it makes sense to allow trans men who have had surgery to use the men’s bathroom and trans women who have had surgery to use the women’s bathroom. — Michael
Sure. I did mention that hormones are one of the determining characteristics of sexual differences, so you haven't contradicted anything I've said.Men being physically stronger than women isn't a cultural thing. Neither is having more testosterone, which we know affects behavior. Has there ever been a culture where men have not committed more crimes than women? — RogueAI
...but it would not include most trans-people as most trans have not had surgery. So you would still force a man wearing a dress into the men's bathroom.I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.
Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw. — Michael
If you are dedicated to pleading to an authority that leaves out the necessary data that would actually show what they are claiming then I don't see how I can help.If you don’t trust what the experts have determined then I don’t see how I can help. As I alluded to before, I can no more prove that there are sex differences in psychology than I can prove that humans evolved via natural selection from single-celled organisms. All I can do is point you in the direction of the research. What you do with that is out of my control. — Michael
The fact that you can co-opt something for a different purpose is trivial and does not mean that the original and primary use no longer exists or is useful. When communicating you are using scribbles and sounds to refer to things that are not scribbles and sounds.We've been over this previously, and it's a bit of a side issue, but I don't agree with your theory that words are all proper names, that all they do is refer. — Banno
But is it a real counterfeit bill or a real dollar bill? Is it a real illusion or a real observation? The fact is that a counterfeit bill and illusions can make you behave as if they are "real" until you have more information as to the causes that preceded their existence. If you don't understand causation then I don't see how you can claim a difference between a counterfeit bill or a dollar bill as different processes went into creating them (causation).I don't find this very useful, since "causal power" is not as clear a concept as "real". Indeed, I doubt that the idea of causation can be made all that clear. But there is a clear use of "real", which I've explained previously - it is used in opposition to some other term, that carries the explanatory weight - it's real, and not a counterfeit, not an illusion, and so on.
It doesn't help us if we explain one unclear idea by using another idea that is even less clear. — Banno
If you understand the relationship between rationalism vs empiricism then all I am saying is that knowledge is supported by integrating both rather than treating them as a dichotomy. Beliefs are supported by only one or the other or neither.I agree with the first sentence. With the rest of it, you lost me a bit. — T Clark
There is some research that suggests that on average, in European populations women are twice as likely to be blonde than men, but we don't say that blonde hair and not-blonde hair are sex differences.I'm sympathetic to this, but when we label someone as "man", along with a physical description of a male (genitalia, chromosomes, etc.) that label also denotes that, on average, men are stronger than women and more violent and predatory. Would you agree? — RogueAI
Here we go again with conflating gender with biology, which leaves out those that have not had surgery.Which is why I said it makes sense to let trans women who have had bottom surgery use the women’s bathroom and trans men who have had bottom surgery use the men’s bathroom. — Michael
But you just spoke about gender as biology (by having surgery) and now it is back to gender as non-biological. You are being inconsistent in your use of the term, "gender".It’s both, which is why the article on gender that I directed you to says “gender is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender.” — Michael
I'm not even saying they're wrong. I'm asking a question about how they can they reach the conclusions they have when the evidence they provide doesn't include necessary information to reach that conclusion and is contradictory. I asked how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes. This is required information and the fact that it is not included is suspicious. The fact that I cannot find the information is also suspicious - kind of like how that study that showed the negative effects of transitioning children was swept under the rug. I have shown evidence that scientists are not always truthful and can be manipulated by politics as much as anyone else, yet you keep pleading to authority when I have shown that the authority you are pleading to has not provided all the necessary information and has been caught keeping necessary information out of the public view.It’s not my argument. It’s what the experts in psychology and psychiatry have determined. If you think that they're wrong then the burden is on you to explain where they’ve gone wrong. — Michael
I'm thinking mutual agreement. — Patterner
For me, things are real if they possess causal power. Rocks and ideas are real because they possess causal power. You can use your ideas to change things in the world and rocks can make you feel pain when you drop one on your foot. Essences would be akin to how different things interact with each other. For instance light is either reflected or passes right through objects depending on what the atomic structure of those objects, and which wavelengths of light are reflected or absorbed is dependent upon the same atomic structure.Then there's Kripke's suggestion, that if we must think of essences we can think of them as the properties had by something in every possible world in which that thing exists. This has the benefit of being formalisable and reasonably clear while keeping to a minimum any metaphysical consequences.
Then you may be suggesting that we can be rid of essences by doing some sort of Bayesian analysis that allows us to conclude that tigers are real. Maybe.
But you and I might agree that essences have little to do with what is and isn't real. — Banno
There is no reference if the scribbles refer to something that is not the case. One can only confirm there is a reference by making some observation about what the scribbles refer to. If there is no reference then they are just scribbles and not words. It's just that we often trust people are not lying when having a conversation with them so we don't feel a need to confirm everything that is said.Yep. Notice that reference remains intact despite the failure of each description. Hence reference is not achieved by using descriptions, nor by essences. — Banno
Sure, usefulness is dependent on what is real or true. For something to be useful means that there is some sense of truth attached to it.Although "99.9%" probably undersells things. Do ants, or trees, or ducks, or men every give birth to tigers? Has anything but a tiger ever given birth to a tiger?
Even in hybrids, the hybrid's traits are an admixture. Horses and donkeys give birth to mules, not cats and frogs, etc.
Note that this also defines what humans find "useful." If one tries to breed one's male pigs to one's female sheep, the family will starve. — Count Timothy von Icarus
The information one possesses could be memories where one used the information before and was successful in accomplishing some goal with that information, and would probably solve the present problem as well being that both circumstances are similar.The point made is that in order to be said to know something, it's not usually enough to have the information; one also should be able to act on that information. — Banno
It seems to me that any proof that logic provides must be confirmed by some observation. 2 + 2 = 4 are just scribbles on a page. What do the scribbles refer to in the world to make 2 + 2 = 4 useful and true? 2 + 2 = 4 is true, but why is it true? It's because we observe and categorize similar objects into groups so that there can be more than one of some thing. If everything were unique and there were no categories then there would only ever be one of anything and 2 + 2 = 4 would be meaningless. The idea of quantities is dependent upon the idea that things share a particular "essence" or "substance" to be grouped into similar categories to then say that there is a quantity of that particular "essence" or "substance", like cows, rocks and stars.Can you explain in virtue of what a belief would be "justified" without any reference to truth? How does logic "justify" a belief without reference to logic's relationship to truth in particular?
It seems to me that this will be difficult. — Count Timothy von Icarus
Which is to say that gender changes over time and cultures. So if a person travels to a different culture or to a different time, does their gender change? The "spectrum" of gender as a social construct exists as the relation between cultures and times, not particular feelings in an individual (and therefore not psychological), so changing genders would require you to move to a different culture or time, not changing your feelings. So which is it, is gender a social construct - a spectrum of societal expectations of the sexes, or is it a spectrum of various feelings an individual has?It’s interesting to consider how and why the social and cultural differences between men and women have developed over time. I suspect things were very different in the Paleolithic. — Michael
I didn't see any pushback on this. So are we to assume that your ulterior motive here is the eradicate transgenderism by applying unisex policies across the board and to have men physically closer to women when they have their pants down?We also don't live in a world with unisex bathrooms. Abolishing clothes, or making all clothes unisex instead of having distinctly Women's clothes and Men's clothes, would abolish transgenderism. Your goal for a unisex society would effectively be a society in which transgenderism would not exist. — Harry Hindu
It's not that. Michael can't seem to decide which definition of gender he is using - the biological one or the non-biological one. He is essentially making category mistakes.It's true that I am not as much 'in the thick of it' as you, I also now realize that my comment doesn't exactly fit the situation.
However, what I wanted to point out was that fitting strictly to textbook definitions and using them as a tool by following them to a T seems wrong to me. However what I previously responded to was not such a situation in this case, but it did seem like that person was trying to put their own definition to the word. — Red Sky
It's your argument. You're the one that needs to support it, not me. You're the one that simply accepts what your told without question.Presumably because of their prevalence. If some trait is typical of 98% of biological men but only 2% of biological women then it’s an example of a sex difference, but you’re better off asking a psychologist, not me.
I’ve linked to the article, it has a list of references, so do the research if you’re unwilling to trust it at face value. — Michael
It seems to me that the conversation is limited when you don't have clear definitions of what it is we are talking about. Without clear definitions we end up talking past each other. Effectively, no communication occurs.limiting the conversation through definitions just seems wrong to me — Red Sky
And I am asking you how it logically follows that these distinctions qualify as sexual differences if they occur across both sexes.There are sex differences in psychology. — Michael
We also don't live in a world with unisex bathrooms. Abolishing clothes, or making all clothes unisex instead of having distinctly Women's clothes and Men's clothes, would abolish transgenderism. Your goal for a unisex society would effectively be a society in which transgenderism would not exist.But, sure, in some idealised society that has no gender roles and where there is never any kind of separation or difference between biological males and biological females (outside of reproduction and reproductive health), and assuming for the sake of argument that sex differences in psychology are explained entirely by nurture and not by nature, then perhaps transgenderism wouldn't occur (although gender dysphoria might) – but we don't live in such a world. — Michael