So women should stand aside as usual. — Malcolm Parry

I have no idea what you mean here.

I’m simply pointing out the fact that it is safer for everyone if trans people are allowed to use their preferred bathroom.

So either you disagree with the facts or you don’t actually care about people’s safety at all. Perhaps you’re just using that as a dog whistle to push an anti-trans agenda.

I have no idea what you mean here. — Michael

I really don't think you do.

I’m simply pointing out the fact that it is safer for everyone if trans people are allowed to use their preferred bathroom. — Michael

So women are uncomfortable with men in their bathrooms and have to put up with it?

So either you disagree with the facts or you don’t actually care about people’s safety at all. Perhaps you’re just using that as a dog whistle to push an anti-trans agenda. — Michael

You don't appear to be concerned about women's fears. Perhaps you’re just using that as a dog whistle to push an misogynistic agenda.

I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.

Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw. — Michael

...but it would not include most trans-people as most trans have not had surgery. So you would still force a man wearing a dress into the men's bathroom.

And your proposal to have unisex bathrooms eliminates the trans-persons ability to affirm their gender by using a binary bathroom. Trans-genderism reinforces the binary gender social model and condones sexism.

So either you haven't thought about the consequences of your proposed solution, or you have an ulterior motive to actually eradicate transgenderism, not support it. Which means that you are acting like you care for the transgender movement but are actually opposed to it and are using it as a means to get men closer to women when their pants are down.

If you don’t trust what the experts have determined then I don’t see how I can help. As I alluded to before, I can no more prove that there are sex differences in psychology than I can prove that humans evolved via natural selection from single-celled organisms. All I can do is point you in the direction of the research. What you do with that is out of my control. — Michael

If you are dedicated to pleading to an authority that leaves out the necessary data that would actually show what they are claiming then I don't see how I can help.

Men being physically stronger than women isn't a cultural thing. Neither is having more testosterone, which we know affects behavior. Has there ever been a culture where men have not committed more crimes than women? — RogueAI

Sure. I did mention that hormones are one of the determining characteristics of sexual differences, so you haven't contradicted anything I've said.

Let me just reiterate here that we're talking about sexual differences, not gender differences if sex and gender are not the same thing.

...but it would not include most trans-people as most trans have not had surgery. So you would still force a man wearing a dress into the men's bathroom. — Harry Hindu

I’m not the one claiming that we ought divide bathrooms by sex organs; you are.

I’m simply pointing out that if we divide bathrooms by sex organs then it makes sense to allow trans men who have had surgery to use the men’s bathroom and trans women who have had surgery to use the women’s bathroom.

Surely one’s karyotype is irrelevant, as are the gentitals one was born with (and no longer have)?

I’m simply pointing out that if we divide bathrooms by sex organs then it makes sense to allow trans men who have had surgery to use the men’s bathroom and trans women who have had surgery to use the women’s bathroom. — Michael

If you're not conflating gender and sex then why are you calling people who modified their sexual biology trans-gender?

In proposing unisex bathrooms you are taking away the trans-gender person's reasons for having surgery in the first place - to affirm their gender.

If you're not conflating gender and sex then why are you calling people who modified their sexual biology trans-gender? — Harry Hindu

I’m not.

You claimed that the reason we have separate bathrooms for men and women is because men and women have different sex organs. And it is a simple fact that some trans people have genital surgery. So I’m asking you which bathroom they should use after having genital surgery.

In proposing unisex bathrooms you are taking away the trans-gender person's reasons for having surgery in the first place - to affirm their gender — Harry Hindu

I’m not.

I’m not.

You claimed that the reason we have separate bathrooms for men and women is because men and women have different sex organs. And it is a simple fact that some trans people have genital surgery. So I’m asking you which bathroom they should use after having genital surgery. — Michael

You are.

You are contradicting yourself. If gender and sex are separate then why would genital surgery be called gender-affirming?

You are contradicting yourself. — Harry Hindu

No, I’m not.

It’s a very simple question, Harry. If you are in charge of deciding who is allowed to use which bathroom, then would you require that trans men who have had genital surgery and now have an artificial penis use the men’s bathroom or the women’s bathroom?

In proposing unisex bathrooms you are taking away the trans-gender person's reasons for having surgery in the first place - to affirm their gender. — Harry Hindu

It's just another dispiriting pious measure nailed to the cross of trans inclusion.

I doubt any woman would be happy with having to go to the loo after a couple of blokes on a morning after the night before. Lasses have a sanctuary on a night out to have a laugh with their mates and maybe escape from people they prefer not to interact with. It's just another part of culture sacrificed to include people who want the world to bend to their whim.

If you are in charge of deciding who is allowed to use which bathroom, then would you require that trans men who have had genital surgery and now have an artificial penis use the men’s bathroom or the women’s bathroom?

Have a women's bathroom and an open bathroom. Have women's sport and open sport.

All inclusive. Sorted.

It’s a very simple question, Harry. If you are in charge of deciding who is allowed to use which bathroom, then would you require that trans men who have had genital surgery and now have an artificial penis use the men’s bathroom or the women’s bathroom? — Michael

You see, you are the one going on about bathrooms when I'm talking about the relationship between gender and sex. You're putting the cart before the horse.

you are the one going on about bathrooms — Harry Hindu

Because that’s what we were both discussing. You said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts."

I just want to understand how artificial sex parts factor into your separation.

I'm talking about the relationship between gender and sex. — Harry Hindu

And that's been addressed several times before.

Sex "is the biological trait that determines whether a sexually reproducing organism produces male or female gametes."

Gender "is the range of social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects of being a man (or boy), woman (or girl), or third gender."

In most cases one's gender is determined by one's sex, but given the existence of transgender people – and societies with more than two genders – this is not a necessity.

Because that’s what we were both discussing. You said "we separate bathrooms by sex because it is an area where we uncover our sex parts."

I just want to understand how artificial sex parts factor into your separation. — Michael

I already said that intersex people can use whatever bathroom they want. People that have had genital surgery are effectively intersex because they still retain some of the sex parts they were born with.

So, just to be clear, in talking about people that have had genital surgery, we're talking about intersex people, not trans-gendered people.

So, just to be clear, in talking about people that have had genital surgery, we're talking about intersex people, not trans-gendered people. — Harry Hindu

And what about trans people who have had genital surgery?

And what about trans people who have had genital surgery? — Michael

Your conflating sex and gender again. If I said that intersex people can use whichever bathroom they want, then why would their gender status matter - if sex and gender are separate?

In most cases one's gender is determined by one's sex, but given the existence of transgender people – and societies with more than two genders – this is not a necessity. — Michael

By having genital surgery the trans-person is asserting their gender is determined by their sex.

Now, what about trans people that haven't had surgery? Which bathroom should they use? And what are they saying determines their gender - which social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects are they referring to - specifically?

Your conflating sex and gender again. — Harry Hindu

No, I'm not. I am simply acknowledging the fact that some transgender people have genital surgery. According to this, 25-50% of transgender men have genital surgery and 4-13% of transgender women have genital surgery.

So, if bathroom usage is dictated by sex parts – which is your claim, not mine – then do you accept that transgender men who have had genital surgery should use the men's bathroom and transgender women who have had genital surgery should use the women's bathroom?

By having genital surgery the trans-person is asserting their gender is determined by their sex. — Harry Hindu

No they're not. The transgender woman is fully aware that she is biologically male and the transgender man is fully aware that he is biologically female.

The very fact that they identity as being transgender is an acknowledgement that their gender is not the typical gender of their biological sex.

Now, what about trans people that haven't had surgery? Which bathroom should they use? — Harry Hindu

Transgender women should use the women's bathroom and transgender men should use the men's bathroom.

And what are they saying determines their gender - which social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral aspects are they referring to - specifically? — Harry Hindu

There's no list of necessary and sufficient conditions. I've linked you to the relevant places that explain it in more detail:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_role
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_expression
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity

No, I'm not. I am simply acknowledging the fact that some transgender people have genital surgery. — Michael

And some people that are not transgender have had genital surgery, as you have pointed out and apparently forgotten. So what does gender status have to do with using the bathroom if gender has nothing to do with biology? Why is it so important that trans people get to use the bathroom rather than the non-trans that have had surgery? It must be because you continue to conflate sex with gender in one moment then claim they are separate in another.

Also, you have been very happy to show specific examples of sex with your use of "penis", "vagina", "testes" etc., but have yet to show ONE specific example of gender as something social, psychological, cultural, and behavioral.

According to this, 25-50% of transgender men have genital surgery and 4-13% of transgender women have genital surgery. — Michael

Thanks for supporting my argument that the number of trans-people that conflate sex and gender are growing and you're just parroting this conflation (delusion).

No they're not. The transgender woman is fully aware that she is biologically male and the transgender man is fully aware that he is biologically female. — Michael

Aren't they saying they are psychologically and culturally male/female? Isn't that the point of contention here? I'm still waiting on specific examples.

Can someone be non-biologically female male? If not, then why the qualifier, "biological"? If so, then please provide a specific example.

There's no list of necessary and sufficient conditions. — Michael

Which is to say gender is anything other than sex. Gender = not-sex. That's helpful. :roll:


.

I’m not conflating gender with biology. I am simply pointing out that if we separate bathrooms according on one’s sex organs, as you say we should, then it makes sense to allow those with an artificial penis to use the same bathroom as those with a natural penis and to allow those with an artificial vagina to use the same bathroom as those with a natural vagina.

Included in those with artificial genitals are trans people who have had surgery, intersex people who have had surgery, and cisgender people who have had surgery after an unfortunate accident with a buzz saw. — Michael

What if there was an android with an artificial penis, which bathroom should they use? Please don't bring up the slippery slope. YOU are the one that used the term, "artificial", so you should define exactly how you're using it. I'm the one saying it's not any kind of penis, artificial or natural.

And some people that are not transgender have had genital surgery, as you have pointed out and apparently forgotten. So what does gender status have to do with using the bathroom if gender has nothing to do with biology? Why is it so important that trans people get to use the bathroom rather than the non-trans that have had surgery? It must be because you continue to conflate sex with gender in one moment then claim they are separate in another. — Harry Hindu

What are you talking about?

You claimed that sex parts dictate which bathroom one can use such that people with a penis use one bathroom and people with a vagina use another bathroom.

I just want to know if you accept that a transgender man with an artifical penis should use the men's bathroom.

It's a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Aren't they saying they are psychologically and culturally male/female? Isn't that the point of contention here? I'm still waiting on specific examples. — Harry Hindu

I've linked to various articles that explain gender, gender roles, gender expression, and gender identity. Do the reading.

I just want to know if you accept that a transgender man with an artifical penis should use the men's bathroom.

It's a simple "yes" or "no" answer. — Michael

Define "artificial". Which bathroom should an android with an artificial penis use?

I've linked to various articles that explain gender, gender roles, gender expression, and gender identity. Do the reading. — Michael

It doesn't show anything specific, which is what I'm asking for. You were more than happy to provide specific examples of sex. Why so reluctant to show just one example of gender as something non-biological? Sounds like someone with a sex fetish that has no idea what they're talking about when it comes to gender and are just using it as cover for their real intention of being closer to women with their pants down.

Define "artificial". — Harry Hindu

The result of genital surgery.

Which bathroom should an android with an artificial penis use? — Harry Hindu

Androids aren't people, they're machines. So there's no "should" or "shouldn't". We can do whatever we like. We could make androids use bathrooms only for androids or we could make them use whichever bathroom is closest or we could make androids with an artificial penis use the men's bathroom.

Or we could just not create androids that need to urinate?

What is the point of this question?

It doesn't show anything specific, which is what I'm asking for. — Harry Hindu

Because there is no specific thing. Society and culture is complex. The social and cultural differences between men and women (or third genders) changes over time and from place to place. And again, there's no set of necessary and sufficient conditions even at a singular time and place.

Do you deny that there are social differences between men and women, independent of their karyotype and genitals? Are we are gender-blind outside of reproduction and reproductive health?

You claimed that sex parts dictate which bathroom one can use such that people with a penis use one bathroom and people with a vagina use another bathroom. — Michael

I mean, while I can't answer for @Harry Hindu I feel the following a likely sentiment or inevitable question.

Do children not grow up wishing they were, I don't know, Superman or something? Some greater being with superpowers. Of course they do. That's why the genre and market of such is so popular. People want to be something they're not. And that's fine, as a child. But when you grow up and start physically and irreversibly altering your body over a delusion, something that's just not real or factual, it's just not right mate. Especially for those whose brains have not fully developed, which all science says does not occur until AT LEAST 25-- minimum.

Say I have a pet cat and I'm amazed at how high it can jump and the how it always lands on its feet. Just because in some fictional future one might be able to get implants that allow one to behave or interact with the world similarly, doesn't mean it should be done. Again limits have to be drawn, for the good of humanity.

Or, sure, someone who's taller than me. Or much larger and stronger. People shouldn't be chasing something they're not, they need to be content with the hand they were dealt and recognize it as a unique human experience that they have the privilege to enjoy, even if it is less than favorable.

What kind of world are we going to hand off to our children? One as its supposed to be, where people are people, yes with their faults and on occasion undesired features, shame, and everything in between. Or some dystopia where one person feels unwell or is maladjusted to life and wants to become a cyborg with 3 arms or an extra set of genitalia or less or more or I mean, it's just absurd. Limits must be drawn. Just because something can be done (bizarre and extreme surgery), doesn't mean it should.

Those exceedingly rare cases 1 out of like 500 million who have true chemical and biological androgynous syndrome, that's one thing. Some dude who just woke up one day wanting different body parts for no logical reason, that's just not something that needs to be taken seriously. Not in a world of real issues and tragedy such as human trafficking and starvation. I'm sorry.

But when you grow up and start physically and irreversibly altering your body over a delusion — Outlander

What delusion?

Some dude who just woke up one day wanting different body parts for no logical reason, that's just not something that needs to be taken seriously. — Outlander

It's also not something that actually happens. This is a ridiculous strawman.

What delusion? — Michael

That you're something you're not. It is common for men to shame other men and compare those they either do not respect or deem inferior to them or who are smaller than them as being "women" or "like a girl."

Just because someone is ostracized or otherwise feels out of place or "not a man/woman" ie. not a normal member of his or her group who fits in, doesn't mean that person is actually gender dysmorphic. They just don't feel normal because they either are not physically and get treated differently as a result or other persons have convinced them of such by sheer will alone. It's a tragedy. Plain and simple.

It's also not something that actually happens. This is a ridiculous strawman. — Michael

Dude. That's literally what the whole discussion is about. Yes, it is very ridiculous. But this is the topic we're discussing. Why are you doing this? Acting like that's not what the majority of people who have "gender-affirming" surgery effectively go through mentally, if not much more simplified. You're clearly intelligent enough to not have to avoid the topic. I'll let those viewing make their own decision as to your motives and reasoning for playing dumb.

That you're something you're not. — Outlander

So what does the transgender man falsely believe himself to be?

Dude. That's literally what the whole discussion is about. — Outlander

No, it isn't. Transgender people don't just "wake up one day wanting different body parts for no logical reason".

I'm going to quote from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_identity both for you and for @Harry Hindu because it seems that neither of you actually understand the issue at all.

It is widely agreed that core gender identity is firmly formed by age 3. At this point, children can make firm statements about their gender and tend to choose activities and toys which are considered appropriate for their gender (such as dolls and painting for girls, and tools and rough-housing for boys), although they do not yet fully understand the implications of gender. After age three, it is extremely difficult to change gender identity.

Martin and Ruble conceptualize this process of development as three stages: (1) as toddlers and pre-schoolers, children learn about defined characteristics, which are socialized aspects of gender; (2) around the ages of five to seven years, identity is consolidated and becomes rigid; (3) after this "peak of rigidity", fluidity returns and socially defined gender roles relax somewhat. Barbara Newmann breaks it down into four parts: (1) understanding the concept of gender, (2) learning gender role standards and stereotypes, (3) identifying with parents, and (4) forming gender preference.

...

Although the formation of gender identity is not completely understood, many factors have been suggested as influencing its development. In particular, the extent to which gender identity is determined by nurture (social environmental factors) versus biological factors (which may include non-social environmental factors) is at the core of the ongoing debate in psychology known as "nature versus nurture". There is increasing evidence that the brain is affected by the organizational role of hormones in utero, circulating sex hormones and the expression of certain genes.

Social factors which may influence gender identity include ideas regarding gender roles conveyed by family, authority figures, mass media, and other influential people in a child's life. The social learning theory posits that children furthermore develop their gender identity through observing and imitating gender-linked behaviors, and then being rewarded or punished for behaving that way, thus being shaped by the people surrounding them through trying to imitate and follow them.

Large-scale twin studies suggest that the development of both transgender and cisgender gender identities is due to genetic factors, with a small potential influence of unique environmental factors.

...

Some studies have investigated whether there is a link between biological variables and transgender or transsexual identity. Several studies have shown that sexually dimorphic brain structures in transsexuals are shifted away from what is associated with their birth sex and towards what is associated with their preferred sex. The volume of the central subdivision of the bed nucleus of a stria terminalis or BSTc (a constituent of the basal ganglia of the brain which is affected by prenatal androgens) of transsexual women has been suggested to be similar to women's and unlike men's, but the relationship between BSTc volume and gender identity is still unclear. Similar brain structure differences have been noted between gay and heterosexual men, and between lesbian and heterosexual women. Transsexuality has a genetic component.

Research suggests that the same hormones that promote the differentiation of sex organs in utero also elicit puberty and influence the development of gender identity. Different amounts of these male or female sex hormones can result in behavior and external genitalia that do not match the norm of their sex assigned at birth, and in acting and looking like their identified gender.

For better or for worse, societies tend to establish gender roles – norms of behaviour deemed appropriate or desirable for individuals based on their biological sex, but norms of behaviour which don't actually have anything to do with biological sex at all.

In the very early years of human development – and in particular at a time when we're unlikely to even be aware of sex organs different from our own – we come to identify as "belonging" to one of these gender roles. The particular gender role that we come to identify as belonging to is determined in part by our genetics, hormones, and brain structure.

And sometimes a biological boy comes to identify as belonging to the gender role typically associated with biological girls, and sometimes a biological girl comes to identify as belonging to the gender role typically associated with biological boys – and this is not wrong because these gender roles are a social construct that have no direct connection to DNA or reproductive organs at all.

So what does the transgender man falsely believe himself to be? — Michael

Born something he (or she, I don't indulge or humor nonsense let alone keep track of such) wasn't. How simple is that to grasp? Sure, it's natural to wish you were a few inches taller if you happen to be short, or a bit larger if you happen to be small, or much more wealthy if you happen to be poor, etc. At the end of the day, you were born as you were, not necessarily as you desire. And that's all there is to it.

You should not reinforce people's unhealthy delusions and obsessions, that only validates the only thing going on here, which is a lie. A delusion. At best a mistake and inaccurate analysis of one's self. It will never be anything more than that.

And sometimes a biological boy comes to identify as belonging to the gender role typically associated with biological girls, and sometimes a biological girl comes to identify as belonging to the gender role typically associated with biological boys – and this is not wrong because these gender roles are a social construct that have no direct connection to DNA or reproductive organs at all. — Michael

All of that is fine, well fine enough, as there's more important things to deal with, up until the point that one considers it logical to permanently and irreversibly alter one's non-disabled and fully healthy body and form, most critically those under the age of what is socially considered a functional and legal adult.. That is what you're blatantly avoiding, my good sir. And I believe you are doing such intentionally for whatever reason that is again up to the public writ-large to determine why and perhaps what should be done as a result.

Born something he (or she, I don't indulge or humor nonsense let alone keep track of such) wasn't. — Outlander

Which is what? Does the transgender man believe himself to be a fish? I need an actual example of a delusion.

All of that is fine, well fine enough, as there's more important things to deal with, up until the point that one considers it logical to permanently and irreversibly alter one's non-disabled and fully healthy body and form, most critically those under the age of what is socially considered a functional and legal adult.. That is what you're blatantly avoiding, my good sir. And I believe you are doing such intentionally for whatever reason that is again up to the public writ-large to determine why and perhaps what should be done as a result. — Outlander

Not every transgender person has gender dysphoria, and according to this, "in studies that assessed transgender men and women as an aggregate, chest surgery has been reported at rates between 8–25%, and genital surgery at 4–13%".

And whether you like it or not, hormone therapy and surgery can be effective treatments. You can't just pretend that gender dysphoria isn't real or can be safely ignored or can only be treated by psychotherapy.

As for "permanently and irreversibly alter[ing] one's non-disabled and fully healthy body and form", well so too is a salpingectomy, but if a woman does not wish to have children and opts to have one then that's her concern and nobody else's, and they ought be allowed to have one.