What do you mean by "the sun is identical to itself"? — TheMadFool
Is there a danger/risk that it won't be identical to itself? — TheMadFool
This mistake, in your example of the sun, won't occur at the level of the sun itself - it's not that there's a possibility that sun will suddenly become not-sun. — TheMadFool
Where an error can occur [...] the equivocation fallacy. — TheMadFool
The Law Of Identity is designed to roadblock this fallacy by mandating the constancy of a term with respect to its referent in a given argument i.e. if a specific referent has been applied to a certain term, this term-referent pair must remain fixed throughout. — TheMadFool
This has nothing to do with the meanings of words. — Tristan L
:chin: — TheMadFool
A rose by [...] more to say. — TheMadFool
Thanks for the engaging conversation. — TheMadFool
This is not a trivial truth. It's an instance of a law of thought viz. The Law Of Identity [A = A]. It's basic, I agree, but that doesn't make it trivial. — TheMadFool
The words/concepts you employ must remain the same throughout a proof — TheMadFool
This is where The Law Of Identity, I mentioned above, comes into play. The words/concepts you employ must remain the same throughout a proof, A = A, a perfect example of which is 0 = 0. — TheMadFool
I recall having come to the conclusion that since a contradiction is defined in temporal terms:
The LNC, as stated in Aristotle’s own words: “It is impossible for the same property to belong and not to belong at the same time to the same thing and in the same respect” — Harry Hindu
arguments do have a temporal dimension and one of the ways of offsetting this is The Law of Identity [A = A] which you think is trivial. — TheMadFool
This issue of the temporal aspect of argumentation has been at the back of my mind for quite some time now. Thanks for reminding me of it. — TheMadFool
Naturally, this sequence of reasoning is only a mathematical distillation. For all practical purposes, it may be repurposed to justify the distinctiveness of any two abstract self-aware entities. — Aryamoy Mitra
That's probably because you can trace your line back to a King or a Queen, a Duchess, a Count. — TheMadFool
My descendants, for certain, won't be happy to see my portrait hanging on their family tree. :grin: — TheMadFool
You've made so many assumptions there to fill all the containers in a cargo ship. :joke: — TheMadFool
And that's the reason why you refer to it as "trivially" true? Something's off. — TheMadFool
:up: It seems you've serendipitously discovered a law of thought viz. One moment, one thought! — TheMadFool
That's a very [...] basis for knowledge. — Aryamoy Mitra
How do you transfer from one such perspective onto another? — Aryamoy Mitra
How people, perhaps this is an old-fashoined attitude, now outmoded, used to care about their ancestral lines. — TheMadFool
some perhaps are much, much older than some modern African nations. — TheMadFool
Sad that they seem to have missed out on an important truth - that the bodies are, under some interpretations, merely vessels for the mind.
Oh! And Physicalism seems to accommodate a gene-based perspective of mind/brain. — TheMadFool
Try to say, "exists" and "not-exists" at the same moment. — Harry Hindu
It is impossible to think of opposing qualities in the same space at the same moment. If you can do that, then your brain must work in a radically different manner than mine. Care to share. — Harry Hindu
:ok: Tell me one thing...what is the meaning of trivially true? — TheMadFool
By the way (E v 0=0) & ~E isn't equivalent to ~E. Do a DeMorgan on it and you have (E & ~E) v (~E v 0=0) and you know the rest. — TheMadFool
Saying is not the same as not saying and nothing is not the same as true, trivial or otherwise. Do I have to go Avicenna on you? :smile: — TheMadFool
hopefully you're a man — TheMadFool
Who would be you, then? Y with your mind/brain in it or your body with Y's mind/brain in it? — TheMadFool
Which body (yours with Y's brain/mind or Y's with your mind/brain) would you prefer had sex with your wife? — TheMadFool
"As for the obstinate, he must be plunged into fire, since fire and non-fire are identical. Let him be beaten, since suffering and not suffering are the same. Let him be deprived of food and drink, since eating and drinking are identical to abstaining.”
-The philosopher and polymath Avicenna — Harry Hindu
(my boldening)At they very least to state ~E = "god doesn't exist" requires one to erase E = "god exists" like so: (god exists) and then write (god doesn't exist). — TheMadFool
there's got to be a sense in which ~p is the opposite of p — TheMadFool
otherwise, to continue with my analogy of blank spaces E = "god exists" and ~E = "god doesn't exist" would simply occupy two different blank spaces and it would be completely ok to do so. — TheMadFool
I suppose, in [...] can't coexist. — TheMadFool
As an attempt to find a common ground between us, I'd like to point out that while I accept that a contradiction is like overwriting a proposition with its negation ("makes a mess"), we should note that this is because the proposition concerned had/has to be erased before the negation could be written down. :chin: — TheMadFool
Your self-equivalence of X is too a hypothesis — Aryamoy Mitra
The human mind, in my estimation, is dichotomous: it conceives of abstract states and is in and of itself abstract. — Aryamoy Mitra
insofar as its existence can be rationalized as being independent. It's just that there isn't a universal distillation from 'experience' to 'existence' in terms of one's mind. — Aryamoy Mitra
What there does seem to be a consensus on (in my opinion) is the mind being the essence of all experience. — Aryamoy Mitra
using relatives (twins) — TheMadFool
Please stop referencing extraneous sources. Table stakes please! — Gary M Washburn
But, if I must, please read 'The Analyst', by George Berkeley. As a mathematical term, the infinitesimal is contradictory. George will explain, and with the advantage it is not just my opinion. — Gary M Washburn
What? That's not even English! — Gary M Washburn
Do you really think sources from almost a thousand years later can be credible witnesses of what Plato taught 'mouthly'? — Gary M Washburn
This is Plato's prime message, one that gets lost to those who, like yourself, demand to be in possession of your terms. — Gary M Washburn
You don't pay attention anyway, not even to your own assertions. — Gary M Washburn
all this 'from on high' nonsense — Gary M Washburn
This dogma is the basis for all cruelty in the world. — Gary M Washburn
Language from other incompatible theories imports implicit assumptions which could make this solipsism self-contradictory. — magritte
For example, 'exists' is explicitly Parmenidean for the one or Aristotelian for the many. — magritte
In common parlance this need not be recognized, but philosophically it can become crucial. — magritte
That's why only the vague 'is' is acceptable. — magritte
I don't recall making the claim that conjunction is like mathematical addition but I remember some Boolean logic from high school which makes that claim. — TheMadFool
As for negation being a sign-flipping operation, I admit that's how I read it. — TheMadFool
You're basically talking about complements of sets, right? — TheMadFool
However, I mean this only against the backdrop of sentential logic. — TheMadFool
but E = "God exists" and ~E = "God doesn't exist" are not categorical statements. — TheMadFool
Why would any thoughts or replies constitute a unique and individual thought or reply from again, a unique and individual... individual? — Outlander
What difference would a rebuttal or refute you post yourself after changing your mind or perspective have from me or another? — Outlander
Or... are there even such things as 'me' and 'another'? — Outlander
The question is this: if you now had to choose whom to live with, do you opt to stay with your wife's body with X's brain/mind in it or would you rather stay with X's body with your wife's brain/mind in it? Is it mind/brain OR body that defines a person? — TheMadFool
Must everything be black or white with you? — Gary M Washburn
The infinitesimal is dogmatically excluded. — Gary M Washburn
terms were universal — Gary M Washburn
Similarly in logic, the assumption we share terms could never be valid if terms were universal, because meaning is intimacy. There is no universal teacher, though somehow I suspect you will contradict that. — Gary M Washburn
Differences in the terms we do share may seem infinitesimal and therefore negligible — Gary M Washburn
BTW, my instructor studied with John Wilde and Raphael Demos, since you do like to cite any source other than the one in question. — Gary M Washburn
as Plato makes plain (if you read him) — Gary M Washburn
And that is why those of us who actually read Plato describe Platonism as inverted Plato. — Gary M Washburn
If only you understood your issue you would see what a tragedy that is for you. — Gary M Washburn
Speaking English, eking is just getting by. This discussion is eking. — Gary M Washburn
All must be examined and reexamined. — Gary M Washburn
your notion of Platonism, and pay no heed to him at all otherwise. — Gary M Washburn
(My translation from Theech into English)That means: Plato, too [just as the Pythagoreans], wants to be understood from the epiphany of Apollo. Not only Pythagorean doctrine, but also Platonic ontology neededly presupposes the religious revelation of Apollo. This unsayable experience always already lies at the ground of all thinking and even all beonde [that which is; ‘beon’ means the “deed/state” of being]: it is the true ground of the opposite principles and their union, the last and most orspringly well from which the dialectical method springs and from which it unfolds. Without the experience of Apollo, there would be no philosophy at all for Plato. Without the epiphany of Apollo, there would be – nothing.
Is Apollo a category? — Gary M Washburn
Never ever does faith come into it — Gary M Washburn
1+1 doesn't equal 2 if 1 and 1 each is distinct, and you can't add 1+1 to get 2 if they are not distinct. — Gary M Washburn
As I see it, you don't like to speak English. — Gary M Washburn
"As I see it" is not an argument. — Gary M Washburn
In logic 101 you might be expected to swallow the lesson uncritically. — Gary M Washburn
There is no opinion I have expressed I am not prepared to justify with Plato's own work. — Gary M Washburn
Why should I need any other? — Gary M Washburn
I don't see the point in refuting all this. — Gary M Washburn
It just appeared as I posted the above. — Gary M Washburn
My answer to the quoted passage here is that you're lack of familiarity with Plato is quite shocking, considering the extensiveness and pretense to authority of your postulations. — Gary M Washburn
If my claim is dogmatic, why is it the most authoritative examples of the "law" of contradiction base their self-evidence on their quantifiers? As in "All A is B, some A is not B? — Gary M Washburn
The verb Is is a quantifier wherever it assigns hermetic membership. — Gary M Washburn
faer — TheMadFool
Is this some neologism for "their"? — Pfhorrest
I suppose it's a clear case of a clash between intuitions rather than the "more common" intuition vs reason scenario everyone, invariably, suspects. — TheMadFool
Socrates doesn't say he knows nothing, he says he knows that he knows nothing. He is not unsure. — Gary M Washburn
what constitutes the category — Gary M Washburn
Logic cannot outstrip its quantifier (save by lying to itself, which it does quite regularly and boldfaced). — Gary M Washburn
Truth is not an aspiration, however inspiring that aspiration is to you! — Gary M Washburn
(My translation from German (Theech) into English)With that, however, the sense of the exclamation at the height of the Republic is inverted from the end: It is not the One which is invoked with the vocative “Apollo”, but rather Apollo himself as living doing god. He is no metaphor for the One; rather, the One has to be understood as god image of Apollo.
(My translation from Theech into English)But that means in the end: Platonic philosophy is religion (even if a special, shortened shape of religion), and indeed not philosophical religion in Hegel’s sense (philosophy is religion and religion is philosophy), but rather living religion, made up of cult and myth. It shows up, as E. Fink writes, “in the shape of a new roun”, which we call the roun of Apollo.
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All the signs of rationalism as I understand it. Certainly not Platonic. — Gary M Washburn
The reason to drop the quantifier is because it instills false belief. Also, it seems to disprove what is true. — Gary M Washburn
and given us a wonderful way of exploring the world of abstract things?George is like Sam.
Sam is vain.
Therefore, George is vain????? — Gary M Washburn
Isn't anything 'beyondly' immortal? Is man 'beyondly'? — Gary M Washburn
The law of the excluded middle is a basis for proof? Because you say so? — Gary M Washburn
Doesn't A is B, in the sense you define it, mean A counts of B? — Gary M Washburn
You can convince yourself that the subject is fixed by predication, put in a bin where it will keep even when you go off elsewhere. — Gary M Washburn
Reckonil? — Gary M Washburn
You do understand, though, there is no such thing a a randomness generator? Presumably, what passes for one gives fodder to the pre-programed system for finding and assessing patterns. — Gary M Washburn
something AI will never achieve — Gary M Washburn
We tried that for explaining evolution, — Gary M Washburn
but if the creature does not put the mutation to use, — Gary M Washburn
nothing can come of random changes that is not part of it's programming. — Gary M Washburn
I have a thesis about that — Gary M Washburn
Lamarck shows us how differentiation comes about without randomness, but in response to biological needs. In other words, to a great extent (much greater than geneticist would have us believe) life creates, designs, and programs itself. — Gary M Washburn
Symbolic notation is used by logicians because they know it isn't really true. It's just about power. — Gary M Washburn
My question to them is, if you can't know which is which and yet count, and you can't count and yet know which is which, how many is 'one'? — Gary M Washburn
You are taking your conclusion as axiomatic. Taking what you find as what you were looking for, because it comes to your mind. — Gary M Washburn
Predication is an assertion that a subject has something of the character of a predicate — Gary M Washburn
Your prejudice toward the hermetic proposition puts the brakes on that dynamism, and ultimately puts you out of sync with all humanity save those few sorry dogmatists you probably hooked up with in a classroom somewhere. — Gary M Washburn
Socrates is a man
All men are Mortal
Therefore:
Socrates is mortal.
I assume you subscribe to this. — Gary M Washburn
If "is" is the qualifier between subject and predicate, and not a quantifier, as analysts (like yourself?) would have it — Gary M Washburn
Ever had a romance? — Gary M Washburn
Ever had a fight with your boss — Gary M Washburn
If any of these, and so much more, it is hard to see you still believing in the excluded middle. — Gary M Washburn
why can't you at least entertain the possibility I have a legitimate area of inquiry? — Gary M Washburn
Drop the quantifiers ("a" and "all') and the "deduction" falls to pieces. — Gary M Washburn
though a computer, for all its utility — Gary M Washburn
though a computer, for all its utility, is nothing more than an automatic - not autonomous - filing system! — Gary M Washburn
George is like Sam.
Sam is vain.
Therefore, George is vain????? — Gary M Washburn
Both your comments are question begging. — Gary M Washburn
These dogmatic shifts are a crime against mind, not a discovery of its law. — Gary M Washburn
"rationalists" — Gary M Washburn
inability to support the excluded middle as an a priori law of reason — Gary M Washburn
The Shape of Contrariety — Tristan L
Whah??? Whatever you mean by this shape, the point is, if there is no there there there is no shape to it. Plato was not a Pythagorean, and Socrates violated the most sacred secret tenet of that cult, in Meno. So why impute geometry to him? — Gary M Washburn
even though we may like the historical underdogs, those who lost, it doesn't mean that them losers where any better morally speaking. — Olivier5
Any European who resent the Roman Empire for killing millions should remember what happened in the 1940's in those oh-so-civilized parts. — Olivier5
Yet then, fascists came to power in Rome, murdered Stilicho and began a systematic extermination of Germanics. This backfired twofold, for it robbed the Empire of a great pillar and provoked the Sack of Rome by King Alaric I. Fast-forward to the twentieth century, and we see fascists bring their own folks to their knees. — Tristan L
Mind you, the European project is about that: recognising that there exists a European indentify, built through empires as it was, that transcends national identities. The project makes sense because European nationalism and division killed so many in the last century. — Olivier5
This isn't to say it was "good." But it is to say that it was remarkable. — Ciceronianus the White
The Roman Empire was fairly extraordinary, though, in that many emperors weren't from Rome or even Italy, but instead from the provinces, e.g. Spain, Africa, Syria, Gaul, Dacia and Moesia. — Ciceronianus the White
I can't think of any imperial power in which high status and power was more available to men of "low birth," provincials and barbarians (meaning, outsiders) than Rome. — Ciceronianus the White
Yes, generally, but in the same sense so many of us, and others, have considered people different from us inferior in some manner. — Ciceronianus the White
Many barbarians served the Empire well [...]. And I think the Empire generally did well by them, for the most part. — Ciceronianus the White
For instance, most Western Eurasian (“European”) states from antiquity to modernity are Indo-European, yet the Indo-Europeans are invasive in Europe, so how can any of those states be legitimate? — Tristan L
What I gather, large empires are typically quite ethno-supremacist and quite full of themselves. — ssu
Yet is this different from the view of the Egyptians, the Chinese or the Aztecs? — ssu
I agree. But usually we assume that people are making a statement of today when referring to history. Yet history in itself deserves focus, even some times it hasn't got much in common with our present. — ssu
Let's not forget. Let's try to look at them with the same objectivity (and criticism) that we look at our own "Western" history. If we do that, many interesting question arise. — ssu