Speaking of which, Alan Arkin died yesterday. — T Clark

And speaking of Alan Arkin. Another cultural reference for another dollar - "Cub is young bear."

Twenty bucks if you can get them both.

everything we do is at its core self centered — Italy

A couple of thoughts. First, a quibble, this is really psychology, not philosophy. It deals with matters of testable fact.

Second, the idea that humans are selfish or self-centered is flawed. Humans are social animals. We like each other. We have empathy and compassion. We can help others without needing there to be any reward - it's just what people do for each other in a community. I think most kindness is done without a second thought. At some abstract level, I guess you could say that, since it's a factor that provides evolutionary benefit that makes it selfish. That doesn't make any sense. It would be as though I said "Boy, you have a fast car," and you responded "No, it's not fast, they just built it with a big engine so it could win races."

Just a different spelling. — Jamal

Yes. I'm sure you're right. It just seemed neat to me. I like playing with names. How about "T Quark?" "T Kork." "P Pork." "C Lark." "C Tlark." "T Kralc." "Quarky." "Washington Irving."

One dollar for the relevant literary reference.

Speaking of which, Alan Arkin died yesterday.

Your answer isn't connected to my question. — Eugen

You weren't paying attention.

Adrian Tchaikovsky
— T Clark

I like the spider stuff. — Jamal

I have not read "Children of Time" yet. I'm sure I'll get around to it. He's really a good writer. Real name - Adrian Czajkowski.

You didn't pay attention, that wasn't my question. — Eugen

I did pay attention. In the past, people believed that life couldn't come out of non-living material. Most now agree that it can. That situation is analogous to the question of consciousness coming out of non-conscious materials.

If Jaworsky claims that it is logical to believe that a particle with 0 consciousness can form consciousness, how can he believe that a particle with 0 consciousness + form with 0 consciousness can create consciousness? — Eugen

Can a particle with 0 life + a form with 0 life create life?

universeness apokrisis - 'mon, be civil. — fdrake

That's a good thing, especially for men I think — Moliere

If you've paid any attention to my posts, you can see that voicing my actual thoughts is no problem, although sometimes I have trouble not voicing my actual thoughts.

It has been a useful discussion for me.

I agree. :)

I wouldn't bother talking if I thought you desired to treat people with disrespect. — Moliere

Speaking of which, I feel like I am treading dangerously close to treating you with disrespect. Perhaps we should leave it here.

"Negation" as in "does not express" rather than "is in opposition to" -- so if you do not express femininity, then "-" would be applicable in accord with the theory. — Moliere

Of course I behave in ways that might be described as typical for a women. I show affection in action and words. I try to look after the emotional well-being of people I'm around. I work toward consensus. I'm empathetic. I can be passive when it's appropriate.

This would make sense if gender were simply a set of sentences or beliefs, but it's kind of wrapped up in one's whole identity, their way of presenting themselves to others and interacting. So "telling" doesn't have to be with words -- it can be done with mannerisms, dress, tone, and even unconscious actions. And that's only looking at behavior.

Telling you what I'm not, in most conversations, is an explanation that you're not treating me as I am. It's work to tell you, but it's even more work to pretend I'm something I'm not. — Moliere

I know men who have a lot of characteristics typical of women. I know women who have a lot of characteristics typical of men. I have never had any problem treating all sorts of people with respect. People who demand to be treated as not having a gender are rigidly defining what it means to be a man or a women at least as much as people who reject the idea of gender uncertainty.

there are four genders in the theory, where +/+ is androgeny, +/- is masculinity, -/+ is femininity, and -/- is undifferentiated. — Moliere

As I noted in a previous post, I don't identify myself as a man in opposition to anything. That would make me +/... I think people think that's impossible, as if the dialectic represents reality rather than human-manufactured mental process.

What benefit is there in telling you what you want to hear, or to lie about themself? That's work. — Moliere

No. Telling me what you're not is work. Telling me nothing is the low-effort path. I won't bring it up if you won't.

Living up to a public image to be pleasing to others for no benefit other than the comfort of others who don't recognize your identity isn't exactly high on the priority list for most people. — Moliere

I don't expect anyone to do what you've described. As I responded to @universeness, I can understand identifying as just about anything, it's identifying as not something that I don't get. It would have be more than you just don't feel like a man, it would mean you reject the implication of maleness. What's the point of that? What does it accomplish? These days, you can live your life just about any way you want without ever encountering questions of your manhood.

Either way, whether I choose to conform for others or not, the opinions of others aren't about me but rather about how I function in their world("Be a man!" as "Do as I say!"). Which, to me, just sounds like work. And no one's paying me to make them comfortable with my identity, yet, though if the offer were right then I might accept it ;) — Moliere

What you say makes sense and I think it supports my position. Why go to the trouble to declare yourself not a man - it just sounds like work.

Imagine for a moment, you had a powerful personal experience, that absolutely convinced you, that Allah exists and was the one true god. Would you need to tell your loved ones? Would you be compelled to declare your new faith publicly, regardless of the significant social cost to yourself and perhaps your family? — universeness

I don't know what I would do, but it's beside the point. Converting to Islam means you identify as a Muslim. That's really different from identifying as not being something. It takes a special effort to do that. The world is full of things I'm not. Picking one out to emphasize and advertise is a very strong statement of rejection. I have the same reaction to atheism.

Is there any identity that you can imagineer, that could be important enough to you that you must reject your current identity, publicly at significant social cost to you and others? — universeness

No, and if there were, it would mean I'm a different person than I am.

Do you feel a 'current social pressure' to not demonstrate any such bias or do you feel you must reject any such current societal pressure and maintain/conserve the factors that contribute to your status of 'hard time understanding that.'
— universeness — universeness

I was not a very socially aware teenager. I must have been aware of homosexuality, but I don't remember thinking about it much or being bothered by it. I don't remember there ever being incidents against gay people in my school. I don't know whether that was because there weren't any or because I just didn't notice them.

Why do you have a hard time understanding that? — universeness

As I said in my previous post to @Moliere:

What confuses me is not that some people are not attached to their gender identities, but that it is important enough to them that they must reject those identities publicly at significant social cost to themselves and others. — T Clark

Shel Silverstein wrote it — Srap Tasmaner

I never knew that. Makes sense though.

In other words, there seems to be a hierarchy of accountability in societies based on factors such as wealth, class, culture, etc. that feeds into larger issues surrounding how agency is treated. — schopenhauer1

The rich guys neighbors are rich guys too. They feel entitled to complain about disruptive factors where they live. Poor guys won't complain because it won't do any good and they've got bigger problems.

I have to ask, but you can of course decide not to answer, as you may feel that it's 'none of my business!' Do you have any feelings of 'disappointment,' towards this sexually non-binary person, that you are a blood relative of? Do you think that they are aware of your current status of having a hard time understanding their current sexual status? — universeness

My sister and I are not related by blood. Her mother married my father when I was about 30. The decision had very negative impacts on the family - my sister and her husband were devastated. It took them years to come to terms with what seemed like a complete rejection of their family. This was not a moral or religious reaction on their part, it was emotional, personal. I've tried to be supportive to both my sister and brother-in-law and their child. It's true though that it angers me that my sister has had to go through all that for a reason I can't understand. I've never talked to anyone about that and I don't think I show it. I don't see the child often enough that it would ever be an issue.

Do you feel that it's important that you don't demonstrate any bias against this relation, in comparison with any other niece or nephew you have, purely on the basis of their non-binary sexual status? — universeness

I would never intentionally show a negative attitude toward them and I don't think I do unintentionally. I still care about them. !@#$% a lot of my resentment is linguistic.

Do you feel a 'current social pressure' to not demonstrate any such bias or do you feel you must reject any such current societal pressure and maintain/conserve the factors that contribute to your status of 'hard time understanding that.' — universeness

"...maintain/conserve the factors that contribute to your status of 'hard time understanding that." What the fuck does that mean?

But I'm still *just* attached enough to my male-side that I prefer to say androgenous man. — Moliere

What confuses me is not that some people are not attached to their gender identities, but that it is important enough to them that they must reject those identities publicly at significant social cost to themselves and others.

So -- androgenous man is the gender identity I've come to prefer, but I'm not settled on the wording. I'm surprised to find others don't feel like me -- but isn't that all part of the path of self-discovery? — Moliere

One of my sister's children, a biological male, identifies as non-binary. I must admit I have a hard time understanding that. Do you think that's the same thing you're talking about?

white, male, American father of son's, — universeness

And a daughter.

magical talking crow
— Italy

I'm going to start referring to T Clark in this way. — Noble Dust

No magic involved. And no talking - just typing.

He's fantasy or, magical realism. Not much sci-fi, a little in his Hard Boiled Wonderland... — Manuel

You're probably right.

So in your opinion, was Tiny Tim a willing participant in an overall wish by a patriarchal American culture to parody/ridicule homosexuality? — universeness

One thing that was always clear is that Tiny Tim was completely sincere. I'm not sure whether he was not aware of the fact he was used as a parody or didn't care.

Why do you think John Wayne acted the way he did on stage — universeness

Wayne was playing around with his own image as the epitome of the masculine.

Do you think there are any parallels between this and going to see/laugh/be entertained, at the freak show where you could be smug and self-righteous, — universeness

I've always thought that prejudice results from people seeing in the person being looked down on traits that we are afraid to see in ourselves - weakness, shame, helplessness.

Does male masculinity and how it has historically manifested in patriarchy, have any place in the future world, you would like for your children? — universeness

As I have expressed previously, I don't think the idea of patriarchy is useful for understanding our society and how it treats men and women.

Should posters here, be allowed to accent only, whatever evidence they think they have, for a future positive role, for traditional/historical male role models in a patriarchy, without counter points and red flags being raised by other posters? — universeness

Posters should post whatever they want within the forum guidelines and other posters should respond in whatever way they want consistent with the guidelines.

Would the fact that they loved the work and enjoyed the job very much, sway you in any way? — universeness

My sons are grown men. I'm comfortable they are capable of making decisions about their own lives without my help. None of my children have ever done anything that I am ashamed of. I don't think they could. That's not the way I think about my children. I don't judge them.

think men should never parody women? — universeness

I have never seen a drag situation that didn't seem condescending to me.

Forgot to say - welcome to the forum.

The "common sense" realist view is that if it's true then it's true for all of us, otherwise it's false for all of us, but if special relativity is correct then whether or not it's true can be relative to our individual movements. — Michael

Sorry. It seems trivial. Philosophers sitting around the campfire making up spooky stories, flashlights under their chins. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

See if they have an anthology of Hugo winners. That's good stuff. — frank

I have a friend who is going through the Hugo winners one by one till he's read them all. When he gets done with that, he plans to go through the Nebula winners not included on the Hugo list.

This is the feeling of "Saturated beauty", when beauty becomes noise and enjoyment of art becomes chore, the feeling that every librarian probably had in small doses; The silly feeling that I wished to share with you, as I find it pretty cool. — Italy

I'm an engineer, not an artist. But you and I do share a characteristic - a vast upwelling of energy that spills out and is hard to keep pointed in the right direction. I've been diagnosed as bipolar, although friends who should know tell me it's more like ADHD.

When I get in a situation like what you describe, I stop thinking and just let the experience wash over me without trying to process it. That doesn't feel right, because I know I'm missing important stuff. Luckily, I can come back later and go through it again. At that point, my mind has taken what I saw originally and built a mental framework for dealing with it. That happens all by itself in the black box of my unconscious.

When I was working as an engineer, I had this image that came to me when I was starting a new project. My head had a hole in the top with a funnel. I would pour all the information - text, figures, maps, tables - in at the top of my head. Then I would wait for a while and it would organize it in my head. Then I could go back through all the data again with a framework I could attach the information to. During the course of the project, I would go though that process over and over, usually with other people. What we called the site conceptual model (SCM) would be refined and revised as that process proceeded.

You think the distinction between "there is intelligent life in the Andromeda Galaxy" being truth-apt and it not being truth-apt is a meaningless distinction? — Michael

Although I've seen it used before, I wasn't familiar with the term "truth-apt," so I looked it up - "A sentence is truth apt if there is some context in which it could be uttered (with its present meaning) and express a true or false proposition." To start, that doesn't seem like a very interesting characterization for any statement. I also don't see how it applies in this context.

I thought you were asking how? The formula explains how. Although obviously not different universes but different reference frames. — Benkei

Thanks.

Was this all just good clean Amurican fun? or does it exemplify American cultural confusion as to their national notion of patriarchy and masculinity. — universeness

My problem with Tiny Tim is that he built his career on a joke or rather on him being the joke. As far as I could tell, he didn't have any talent beyond being willing to make a fool of himself. Just like the first few episodes every season of American Idol.

As for masculine vs. feminine, another problem I have with TT is the one I have with drag performers - men wanting to steal something from women without ever having to pay their dues. I've always found it disrespectful.

It's cool to compare the American version to the Russian one. There's a very different tone in each. The American one pays closer attention to making sense. The plot is sketchy to begin with. — frank

The book is next on my list as soon as I can get it from the library.

I'm thinking selection bias. — Srap Tasmaner

A good, subtle insult.

In my experience the writer's world is often very competitive - who gets to be interviewed and on what media, sales figures, invitations to speak, prizes. Several of my friends are successful writers and journalists. They describe a hive of competition, bitter rivalries, irrational hatreds and enmities. If it's your profession, the solitary act of writing is often subsumed by the social world of writers. — Tom Storm

Sure, but that's a different kind of writing than I'm talking about. For what I write, it only matters if what I write is good, or, on a bad day, good enough.

Yes... well... Perhaps I was wrong.

We have some "real writers". — Srap Tasmaner

I always hated when people talked about "literary" science fiction. I think that was because it meant so much to me as a kid - it was people with the mind of teenagers writing for teenagers. Lots of ideas and who cares, who even knew, if the writing was any good.

I must admit I've come around since I started reading science fiction again about 20 years ago. Anne Leckie, Martha Wells, Adrian Tchaikovsky, China Mieville, Gene Wolf, Neal Stephenson, Haruki Murakami...

One example I can think of on this site was making the short story competition less a competition and more an activity. My go to when organizing it first was to think of it as a competition but it worked better when this aspect was purposeIy downplayed. — Baden

Yes. I don't generally think of writing as competitive. Maybe that's because I have confidence in my ideas and my ability to express them and I'm not afraid of being wrong or changing my mind.

I wouldn't try to convince you guys that Ubik is a great novel. — Srap Tasmaner

Perhaps we should wait till Noble Dust gets off his ass and starts a separate thread. Then you can, if not try to convince me, at least help me understand why you like it.

If you've ever seen the Russian version of Solaris, it captures that old school vibe pretty well. — frank

I saw the English version, which was ok. I've been thinking I should read it.

[Edit] Just put the electronic version on hold from my library.

a cliche form of discourse — Baden

I think this is true of a lot of science fiction from the 40s, 50s, and 60s. "The Foundation" and it's two successors had a big impact on me, but rereading the first recently enlightened me to how ham-handed the writing is.