• Ukraine Crisis
    I’m wondering if the result of the US - Russia conference will amount to the US walking away from supporting Ukraine. The grounds will be a ‘peace’ proposal that Ukraine and Europe can’t accept, giving the US grounds for saying that they don’t want to end the war and it’s on their heads.

    It’ll become clear soon enough.
  • The Musk Plutocracy

    60 Minutes on the Woodchipping of U.S.A.I.D.
  • The Boom in Classical Education in the US
    Since reaching middle age - well gone now! - I've become painfully aware of the deficiencies of my education in 'The Classics'. Reading philosophy and interacting on forums has re-awakened the interest - I feel that Greek philosophy and other classical literature is very much a cultural heritage, but one that has become largely deprecated in today's world. Mind you I'm also aware that had I had it beaten into me with a cane, the way many previous generations did, I would probably have hated it. But at it is, it feels more like a forgotten cache of wisdom.

    I am assuming that this trend is often connected to conservative thinking.Tom Storm

    Indeed. And it is rather an inconvenient truth in some ways. The 'perennial philosophers' who hark back to the so-called world wisdom traditions are often arch-conservative, to the point of being reactionary. But then, so much of what is taken for granted - the new normal, so to speak - is wildly radical in their eyes, and we don't see it, because we're immersed in it. For myself, as a long-time critic of the materialism of modern culture, it makes for some odd bedfellows, so to speak. Although I do console myself with the idea that at least there is also a kind of 'traditionalist left' like Jacques Maritain, committed to social justice and effective democracy while also respecting tradition.
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    And I'm saying, that your beliefs are respectable. When have I disrespected you?Arcane Sandwich

    Did I say that you were? There's nothing to be defensive about. I was responding to your comment simply to make a general point, I wasn't taking a shot at you.
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    It's a discussion, that's all. In the context, I was responding to RussellA's re-statement of the unparalleled brilliance of the Caledonian Crow.

    The point I'm trying to get it, is that while it's true, of course, that h.sapiens evolved from simian forbears, during the course of evolution, a threshold was crossed which makes humans very different from other species. But every time I say that, the response is, hey, caledonian crows can count! What makes you think we're so special? Which is what I'm saying is the 'blind spot'.
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    Of course it's true that h.sapiens didn't 'appear from nowhere'. But if you read up on evolutionary theory, the changes that accompanied the development of an upright gait and the comparatively large forebrain happened very rapidly in comparative terms. A complicating factor was that the pelvis and birth canal of hominids with an upright gait was dramatically more confined than in that of prior species, which is the reason the h.sapiens skull is soft at the time of birth and only gradually hardens during the first few years of infancy. A major consequence of that is birth is much more difficult and painful, and the rates of maternal mortality far higher, amongst h.sapiens than among their predecessor species (very low amongst chimps, for example). And it's difficult to see how the advantages conferred by the larger brain would immediately offset the higher female mortality rates. Almost as if a lot of sacrifices were being made to allow for the evolution of a species, the brain of whom is orders of magnitude more developed than any others. For what? So they can declare that they're actually not very different ;-)

    (Ref Why Us? How Science Re-discovered the Mystery of Ourselves, James le Fanu.)
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    Humans are animals after all. The human animal evolved from non-human animals. The human animal didn't appear ready-formed from nowhere.RussellA

    H.Sapiens are different in a way that makes an enormous difference. The fact that this is something modern culture can’t acknowledge is a cultural blind spot. I think it's because what is described nowadays as philosophy doesn't have the foundational concepts required to comprehend why it's important.
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    But if it did ‘make sense’ to you, nothing you’ve said would prevent you from so doing. You’re not describing a moral code
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    "Reuters was paid millions of dollars by the US government for ‘large scale social deception,’” Musk proclaimed in an X post that has racked up more than 76,000 shares and 35 million views. “They’re a total scam. Just wow.” ...

    The contract was real, but the Orwellian phrase Musk seized on to suggest a shadowy conspiracy wasn’t what it seems. A slightly closer look would have revealed that the contract, signed during President Donald Trump’s first term, was for help defending against cyberattacks — that is, combating deception, not fueling it. And it went to a separate division of the company, not the news agency.

    Musk’s misinterpretation went viral, amplified by Trump as proof of corrupt ties between the “radical left” media and the “deep state.”

    The Reuters brouhaha was the latest example of what is quickly becoming a familiar playbook as Musk’s U.S. DOGE Service sweeps through federal agencies for evidence of waste, fraud and corruption. However endemic federal misspending is, Musk has repeatedly misrepresented facts on X to bolster unfounded claims of wrongdoing. Like the U.S. Agency for International Development, Politico and others before it, Reuters has been cast as a villain in a narrative spun by Musk in which nefarious left-wing schemes lurk behind programs he targets for cuts — and those who stand in the way. The world’s richest man was tapped to lead the project on the premise that he would bring his private-sector business acumen to bear on bloated government budgets. But as the owner and most followed user of X, he has also wielded a social media bully pulpit and marshaled a crowd of online loyalists to disparage and discredit each agency, program and funding recipient he targets for cuts. In some cases, the truth has been collateral damage. ...

    When his DOGE employees moved this month to wrest control of USAID, Musk took to X to call the organization “evil,” “criminal” and “a viper’s nest of radical-left Marxists who hate America.” Instead of drawing on a long history of bipartisan concerns about misspending at the agency, Musk popularized false claims that USAID and other agencies were spending millions of dollars to fund the news outlet Politico, promising that the gravy train would be “deleted.” (In fact, the agencies were paying far smaller sums for subscriptions to the outlet’s “Pro” products, which provide specialized policy news to businesses and governments.) ...

    With Musk using the social media platform he owns as a propaganda organ to promote his work for the Trump administration, “We’re seeing the emergence of state social media in the USA.”
    — Washington Post
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    It's a work-in-progress. But I will call out a major source for what I've been researching the last year or so, namely, the first 15 or so lectures in John Vervaeke's Awakening from the Meaning Crisis. Also this page on the four types of knowing.
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    Even if philosophical detachment doesn’t presuppose the division, does it arrive at it through some form of logical inference?Mww

    The point of departure for me was doing a web search on the phrase 'the union of knower and known'. If you click that link, just scroll down the page and see what is returned. All of the results are from perennialist philosophers, but it requires a very long view to discern the dialectics.

    The key idea is 'participatory knowing' or 'participatory realism'. That is a form of knowing in which the knower (subject, agent, actor) is completely at one with the object (act, peformance or doing). The dancer becomes the dance, so to speak. The general drift of the idea is that this was characteristic of pre-modern thought, and with the advent of modernity and individualism, knowledge becomes instead propositional and procedural (hence the 'cartesian anxiety'). The separation of knower and known was hardwired into Galilean science, with the division of primary and secondary qualities, subject and object. It's a big topic, well outside scope of this thread.
  • Quran Burning and Stabbing in London
    Are there good reasons, today, to burn a Quran?flannel jesus

    I voted no.

    About five years ago, there was a bitter debate on this Forum about a case in Indonesia where the Governor of Jakarta Indonesia was jailed for blasphemy for allegedly insulting the Koran. (He was released in 2019.) That debate can be reviewed here. It got to be a very heated argument about whether Islam recognises the separation of church and state. I got a lot of heat for saying anything whatever about 'Islam', which was said to be a social construct or a form of stereotyping. So in that view, saying anything whatever about Islam was like a form of racism (indeed that comparison was explicitly made.)

    I think Islam sits awkwardly with liberal democracy, as it is basically theocratic in outlook. I don't think there's an easy way to reconcile them. But I also don't think making deliberately provocative statements or demonstrations like Quran burning does anything to help. It just incites further division, outrage and violence on both sides. It's important to try and find common ground rather than causes for further division.

    There is a certain asymettry in the relationship between believers and secular culture. For the secular, religion is a personal matter. Liberal democracy will protect the right of the individual to freedom of religion as a matter of principle. But at the same time, as it is seen as a personal matter, it can't have any claim to be true in any sense other than the personal. Whereas for the believer, it's a matter of life and death and the fate of the soul. There's a very deep, if rather long, reflection on the 9/11 terrorist incidents which explores these tensions, Terror in the God-Shaped Hole: Confronting Modernity’s Identity Crisis, David Loy, 2003. Worth the read.
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    In TLP 6.421, does Wittgenstein write "Ethics is transcendent" or "Ethics is transcendental"?
    What does Wittgenstein mean by "Ethics is transcendental"? (TLP 6.421)
    Why are ethics transcendental rather than subjective or objective?
    Why is conscience drawn to a transcendent source of ethics?
    RussellA

    In context, the passage in question is this:

    6.41 The sense of the world must lie outside the world. In the world everything is as it is and happens as it does happen. In it there is no value—and if there were, it would be of no value.
    If there is a value which is of value, it must lie outside all happening and being-so. For all happening and being-so is accidental.

    What makes it non-accidental cannot lie in the world, for otherwise this would again be accidental.
    It must lie outside the world.

    6.42 Hence also there can be no ethical propositions.
    Propositions cannot express anything higher.

    6.421 It is clear that ethics cannot be expressed.
    Ethics is transcendental.
    (Ethics and æsthetics are one.)

    'If there is value which is of value, it must lie outside all happening and being-so. For all happening and being-so is accidental'. Why is it accidental? Because it is contingent. It happens to be the case. Whereas ethics is a matter of necessity. Ethical maxims express what one ought to do or must do. They are maxims, irrespective of happening or being-so. Ethics is not an object of knowledge in the way physical facts are, but rather, it is something presupposed in our engagement with the world—it is "beyond" the realm of empirical description. Wittgenstein’s use of 'transcendental' is Kantian in this sense.

    The final remark—“Ethics and aesthetics are one”— suggests that both ethics and aesthetics concern a way of seeing the world rather than a set of factual claims about it. They both belong to the domain of the transcendental, shaping our perspective but not adding to the sum total of facts. Ethics is not another fact within the world but something beyond 'happening and being-so' —hence why it cannot be stated propositionally. Instead, it is something lived, shown, or experienced.

    As to why animals do not have a conscience - I don't want to express it as if it were a lack or a fault. But animals can't envisage that things could be other than what they are. The capacity to grasp what could be, might be, or should be, is what distinguishes humans from other species. It is also the source of our sense of separateness from nature.

    P1 Assume that within nature there is an objective judgment of good or evil.
    P2 Humans are part of nature.
    P3 Each individual's judgment as to what is good or evil is particular to them and is subjective.
    C1 As within nature there is an objective judgement of good and evil, yet only subjective judgments of what is good or evil within individual humans, humans are not aware of the objective judgment of good and evil.
    RussellA

    I'm afraid the attitude that you're describing is very close to that of a psychopathology. There's no reason for any action, other than what makes sense to me. Nature may have reasons, but there's no way you or I can know what they are.

    Evidently Wayfarer has found some sort of objective truth in the world as well as inside of his own brain.Arcane Sandwich

    I question that the only criterion of truth is what can be considered 'objective'. I've written an off-site essay on that question, Scientific Objectivity and Philosophical Detachment, which is very hard to summarise down to a forum post. But suffice to say that it sees philosophical detachment as superior to scientific objectivity, because it doesn't pre-suppose the division between knower and known that characterises modern thought. The culmination of philosophical detachment is seeing beyond the ego-logical perspective, an insight outside the domain of self-and-other, subject and object, as understood in the various schools of the perennial philosophies.
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    Nothing about Elon Musk activities or demeanour are a source of relief. He is almost a Hollywood caricature, a Bond movie villain. But unfortunately, it’s not a movie.
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    It was more the declarative nature of the text. It doesn’t present an argument or arguments, but a series of declarations.

    As I said previously, if everything humans are and do are all simply ‘expressions of nature’ then the term ‘natural’ really has no meaning, because it refers to anything whatever. In reality the distinction between ‘natural’ and ‘artificial’ is perfectly intelligible and has been spelled out, and the idea that humans live in a ‘state of nature’ fanciful. The human sense of otherness or alienation from nature is a fundamental fact of the human condition. As I said before, were you cast into a perfectly natural environment with none of the artifices and resources of urban life, I dare say you would find it very difficult to survive.

    Then you make sweeping statements to the effect that, because moral statements can’t be objectively justified, then they’re really a matter for every individual subject. ‘No moral judgement takes precedence over any other’. This is a complete capitulation to relativism, ‘whatever works for you’, depending on circumstances and your particular predilections, I presume.

    The basis of ethics is neither subjective nor objective, but transcendental. That is what Wittgenstein means when he says ‘ethics is transcendent’ (TLP 6.41) - objective propositions are what ethics are transcendent in respect to. Conscience is traditionally that faculty which is guided by or drawn towards a transcendent source of ethics, something lacking in animals for whom such matters do not arise.

    So, in short, and without wishing to be unfriendly, I disagree with practically everything about that post.
  • New Thread?
    In that case you will have to rename the existing "climate change" thread to be "climate change evangelism".Agree-to-Disagree

    Part of the argumentarium of denialism is to equate awareness of the danger of climate change with religious belief. The Australian PM who repealed a working carbon tax in favorite of ‘planting trees’ did that. It situates it in the domain of personal belief rather than environmental science.

    Anyway - this thread should be merged.
  • New Thread?
    It’s not a philosophical issue. Purely empirical. The composition of the atmosphere affects global climate. The only argument is not whether that is happening but what can be done about it.

    But then, this has already become another climate change thread. Probably should be merged.
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    What could possibly go wrong?
  • New Thread?
    I agree but it should be called for what it is, ‘denialism’. Scepticism is the withholding of judgement concerning what is not evident, whereas denialism is the refusal to acknowledge abundant evidence.
  • The Musk Plutocracy
    ‘Trump administration officials fired more than 300 staffers Thursday night at the National Nuclear Security Administration — the agency tasked with managing the nation’s nuclear stockpile — as part of broader Energy Department layoffs, according to four people with knowledge of the matter.’ :yikes:
  • Why is it that nature is perceived as 'true'?
    Underlining declarations doesn’t make them valid arguments.
  • Ontology of Time
    Because otherwise we would have no possible explanation of how the watch functions.JuanZu

    I don’t understand your reasoning. What you said was

    there must be an ontological continuity between the clock and those movements.JuanZu

    Why must there be ‘ontological continuity’ between the clock mechanism and the movement of the clock hands? ‘Because otherwise….’

    Finish that sentence ;-)
  • fdrake stepping down as a mod this weekend
    Wayfarer knows how I feel about idealism very well. We argued about it for years!fdrake

    Thems were the days….
  • Ontology of Time
    Bergson considers an oscillating pendulum, moving back and forth. At each moment, the pendulum occupies a different position in space, like the points on a line or the moving hands on a clockface. In the case of a clock, the current state – the current time – is what we call ‘now’. Each successive ‘now’ of the clock contains nothing of the past because each moment, each unit, is separate and distinct. But this is not how we experience time. Instead, we hold these separate moments together in our memory. We unify them. A physical clock measures a succession of moments, but only experiencing duration allows us to recognise these seemingly separate moments as a succession. Clocks don’t measure time; we do. — Aeon.co
  • Ontology of Time
    In memory….
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    For years, Trumpists falsely accused the DOJ of being politicized, to provide cover for Trump's criminal behavior. Now they're overtly politicizing itRelativist

    Never! Who would have thought?
  • Ontology of Time
    What I want you to understand is why the measuring device is necessaryJuanZu

    If understand that and did not say otherwise. I didn’t say anything about ‘collapse’ by which I presume you’re referring to so-called ‘wave function collapse’. My analysis of that is presented in an an offsite essay. You will see that I reject any idea of doing away with the observer.

    But there must be an ontological continuity between the clock and those movements.JuanZu

    Why? What dictates that necessity?
  • Ontology of Time
    The observer is subsumed in this interaction in such a way as to make that interaction physical. So the observer is our measuring machines, like a clock, which makes the coherent state of an isolated system disappear.JuanZu

    The observer is the engineer or builder who makes the clock and decides on the units of measurement. The interaction is between the object of measurement and the observer who takes the measurement. Were there no observer, there would be neither a clock, nor two systems that interact. It makes no sense to say that the observer is 'subsumed' by the mechanism, when the mechanism is the instrument made by the observer. And measurement is not just physical interaction, but an intentional act that requires an observer to define, interpret, and establish a measurement framework. Without an observer, a clock is just a set of moving parts—it is not measuring anything in any meaningful sense.

    By invoking "magic," you seem to be saying that the requirement for the observer somehow violates causality—perhaps that consciousness somehow directly affects physical systems. But this doesn't require consciousness to be a causal agent in that sense; it is simply that measurement, as a concept, only exists within an interpretative framework, and that framework is necessarily provided by observers. If no observer sets the terms of measurement, then the notion of measurement is meaningless —whatever object is being considered is simply undergoing change.

    Seems to me that your issue is that if measurement depends on mind, then it seems to entail that reality must somehow be "mental". That seems to be the core fear—that acknowledging the role of the observer seems to entail an idealist framework. Is that how you see it? Whereas, I see the attempt to depict the measurement as being something that takes place irrespective of any intentional act, arises from a fallacious division between 'material' and 'mental'.
  • Ontology of Time
    You can know stuff about the stuff about which nothing can be known?Banno

    Kant's introduced the concept of the “thing in itself” to refer to reality as it is independent of our experience of it and unstructured by our cognitive constitution. The concept was harshly criticized in his own time and has been lambasted by generations of critics since. A standard objection to the notion is that Kant has no business positing it given his insistence that we can only know what lies within the limits of possible experience. But a more sympathetic reading is to see the concept of the “thing in itself” as a sort of placeholder in Kant's system; it both marks the limits of what we can know and expresses a sense of mystery that cannot be dissolved, the sense of mystery that underlies our unanswerable questions. Through both of these functions it serves to keep us humble.
  • Donald Trump (All General Trump Conversations Here)
    Vance says in an interview that America could put boots on the ground in Ukraine if Putin doesn’t negotiate in good faith. And also impose further sanctions. Now that is out of left field.

    https://www.cnn.com/2025/02/14/politics/jd-vance-us-troops-russia-ukraine-intl-hnk?cid=ios_app
  • Ontology of Time
    Again, how could you know this?Banno

    Deductively, from the nature of knowledge.
  • Ontology of Time
    If time only passes from a perspective, then clocks would be pointless. Clocks have a use becasue time also passes independently of perspectiveBanno

    But we all share a perspective! Time passes independently of a particular perspective, but it is common to all of us, because we live on a planet that rotates daily and orbits yearly. That is the same for everyone. But for a being from a world that rotates once a century and orbits every millenium, the human concept of time would be meaningless.

    The world is indeed independent of us, but to the extent that it is independent, it’s also unknowable. The mind-independent nature of the sensory domain is a methodological heuristic, not a metaphysical principle.

    In some possible world there are no minds.Banno

    on many planets, no doubt. But, absent mind, they are not worlds.
  • Ontology of Time
    The clock was built by an observer to make a measurement which both you and the maker of it will be able to understand. Your statements about the 'there anyway' rely on an implicit perspective. Though we know that prior to the evolution of life there must have been a Universe with no intelligent beings in it, or that there are empty rooms with no inhabitants, or objects unseen by any eye — the existence of all such supposedly unseen realities still relies on an implicit perspective. What their existence might be outside of any perspective is meaningless and unintelligible, as a matter of both fact and principle.
  • Ontology of Time
    We would not measure time because that accuracy is not given by our experience but by the clock mechanism. Hence it is the clock that measure.JuanZu

    I don’t agree. The clock is the instrument by which we measure, but the act of measurement is carried out by the measurer. As that passage I quoted says, ‘ A physical clock measures a succession of moments, but only experiencing duration allows us to recognise these seemingly separate moments as a succession’ - which is what measurement entails.
  • Ontology of Time
    We don't actually measure the time from the clock, the clock does the work automatically, we read that measurement.JuanZu

    See this post for a rebuttal. ‘ A physical clock measures a succession of moments, but only experiencing duration allows us to recognise these seemingly separate moments as a succession. Clocks don’t measure time; we do.’
  • Ontology of Time
    appeal to authorityBanno

    Citing sources in support of argument is perfectly legitimate.
  • Ontology of Time
    ‘Clocks don’t measure time. We do.’
  • Ontology of Time
    Are you aware of any form of consciousness that is not the attribute of an observer? Is it like something free-floating in the ether?

    You’re the master of the back-handed compliment, Banno.
  • Ontology of Time
    Well that’s cool. It’s said that 9/10 of the law is possession, I sometimes think 9/10 of philosophy is disagreement. (Although I will add, a great deal of what I say is also expressed in different ways in Continental philosophy.)