I honestly don't find it credible to say Putin is in any significant manner different from a neo-Nazi, or helping defeat the neo-Nazi 'cause' (your wording).

Yes. Putin.

Of course, if they are only a fringe group — boethius

They are not a fringe group in the Moscow, though.

It would be very difficult to argue that Ukraine is a "better democracy" than Russia — boethius

Good that I'm not arguing that, then. I'm just stating that Putin is not in any significant way different from the 'neonazis' he brandishes as an excuse for his mass murders.

Putin's not a neo-Nazi.

People can be a different flavour of authoritarianism. — boethius

He is the gay nazi type. It's a flavour alright.

Putin's ties to neo-Nazi's would not make a sound argument about justification of fighting neo-Nazi's unsound, it would just make Putin a hypocrite. — boethius

If Putin wants to get rid of neonazis, he should fire a bullet in his head.

why keep making evidence-free allegations? — Apollodorus

Why not? Zelensky is a bit busy right row, and doing extremely well in his communication, thank you. You might have to wait for the evidence, I guess.

Personally I agree with Popper that philosophers should try and be 'real' ie focus on problems that are relevant to the general public, science, politics or art. In philosophy, puzzles are a mere reasoning tool, means to an end. He saw Wittgenstein as a sophist, rightly so in my view.

But then there is the actual war that is bloody. And too much video materiel which isn't fake. If this war continues on with similar intensity as now, this will be a very bloody war. If so much destruction in one week, how much then in two. Or three. Or in a month or two. Or a year. — ssu

I agree, it will look like our worst nightmares. Like Syria, with a nuclear spin. Yesterday the Csar called Macron to tell him he will go all the way to the Polish border. This morning the Russian were bombing the largest nuclear plant in Europe, Zaporizhzhya. These guys are not just criminals, they are also bubbling cretins. Anyway, apparently they took it without damaging the core...

These and many other stories belong to myths spread on platforms like Twitter, Facebook, and TikTok and are viewed millions of times (one of them 24+m times) across the globe. — Apollodorus

There are all sorts of fake news being spread including by the victims of course. I was reading earlier about a village north of Odessa (Datchne) where there was some bombing. Most villagers attributed the bombing to Russian forces given the current bombing of Odessa, but some of the victims blamed the Ukrainian forces for it... So the 'blame game' happens even under the bombs!

So it does look like mankind cannot live without myth. Ancient mythologies are being swapped for new and people seem to be only too happy to live in a make-believe world shaped by narratives churned out by the global mass media ….

These conditions are extreme and a people besieged and without official information will find hope where they can. So yes, people need to lionize their nation with all sorts of myths, ok ok, but they do need it under the bombs a lot more than when living in peace.

Ukraine Acknowledges Racist Treatment Of Africans Fleeing Russian Invasion - HuffPost — Apollodorus

Incidentally, I've always been amazed at the number of people in developing countries who studied in Kiev and Moscow. The soviets must have trained thousands of medical doctors, chemists, geographers, agronomists, veterinarians, entomologists, journalists and political scientists, etc etc in places like Indian sub continent, latin America, Africa.... That's a massive contribution to these nations' development when you think of it.

Agreed, it's a finely balanced analysis.

Of course they do do dominate NATO but nevertheless, this organisation, a few weeks ago still, seemed to have forgotten its mission and lacked in coherence. When i say the US leadership was weak, I count in there their shoddy business in Ukraine and other places, bypassing Europe. So I guess we agree that this crisis finds the atlantic alliance in a rather poor shape, with potential for disunion, temporary suppressed in a union sacrée against the bear. Let us hope this crisis leads to a rejuvenated alliance where European voices are heard a little more. Even those who don't speak English very well... One can always hope.

Yeah, I might rage off, but that may be because I care a lot about stopping a tyrant, some seem to care more about winning an argument. — Christoffer

I suspect, and this is not a criticism, that you also have skin in the game, literally. Your life could be affected.

I was against NATO before all of this, I didn't think Sweden should join. But Putin changed the game 180. — Christoffer

NATO is better than the alternative. It's a mess right now though, with rather weak US leadership since a very looooong time. If NATO is a US puppet, it's one that the spoiled child has misplace under her bed.

sometimes seems like people read one sentence and then don't care before answering. — Christoffer

Sadly, that is to be expected. Not everybody cares as much as you do.

Some of your interlocutors just put out vague faint generalities that they are unable to support with facts? They don't read what you write? They argue from a position of ignorance and adopt a cavalier attitude? You can safely conclude that they don't care in the least about the issue being discussed. It's as simple as that. Because if they truly cared they would care about facts and logic, they would pay attention.

As a rule of thumb, people care very much or very little for some event or crisis depending upon their potential personal exposure and proximity or distance to the crisis. So for instance, the exposure of someone living in Australia to the Ukraine war is minimal and implies from Australians a certain detachement. They won't inform themselves about it very much, why should they? But naturally, they might care and know more things about koalas and kangaroos. While someone positioned in or near Ukraine would naturally care more and might be a bit better informed about what's happening in Kiev (but perhaps less so about kangaroos).

I also wonder why you, as a moderator, write such a post as the one you just did? — Christoffer

Seconded. The role of moderators doesn't involve insulting other posters. @jamalrob should know better than that.

I would like to tell you, I would like to say
That I knew that this would happen
That things would go this way
But I cannot deceive you,
This was never planned
I know that you're the right girl but
Do you think that I am the right man?

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Right face wrong time, she's sweet
(But I don't wanna fall in love)
Too late, so deep, better run cause
(but I don't wanna fall in love)
Can't sleep, can't eat, can't think straight
(I don't wanna)

You say it's not a problem,
You say it's meant to be
But love is not an option,
Our love is never free
And things are not so easy,
So cold and we've been burned
I know that I'll have regrets but
That's the price of one more lesson learned

1 2 3 4 5 6 7
Right face wrong time, she's sweet
(But I don't wanna fall in love)
Too late, so deep, better run cause
(but I don't wanna fall in love)
Can't sleep, can't eat, can't think straight
(I don't wanna)

Right face wrong time, she's sweet
(But I don't wanna fall in love)
Too late, so deep, better run cause
(I don't wanna fall in love)
Right face wrong time, she's sweet
(But I don't wanna fall in love)
Can't sleep, can't eat, can't think straight
(I don't wanna fall in love)
Right face wrong time, she's sweet
(But I don't wanna fall in love)
Too late, so deep, better run cause
(I don't wanna fall in love)
Right face wrong time, she's sweet
(But I don't wanna fall in love)
Can't sleep, can't eat, can't think straight
(I don't wanna, I don't wanna, I don't wanna)

Personally, I blame the Australians.
— Olivier5

The Dutch! — jorndoe

The Dutch may have played a minor role, but I know better than trusting the Australians with anything. They certainly didn't do much to stop the escalation, which should give us a clue! And when you think about it, who has an interest in nuking the entire northern hemisphere, if not the Australians?...

[clue in the violins from the Psycho soundtrack]

Actually the game is two-fold; there's Russian blame NATO and there's Western blame NATO critics. — Baden

Personally, I blame the Australians.

But I still love my country, and I relish its cultural output--not all of it uniformly. Much of American culture was imported from elsewhere--like coffee which has never been grown here. Coffee is a very good thing.

Love of and pride in my country may be based on certain delusions, though, like: "In God We Trust", "E Pluribus Unum", "one nation, under God, with liberty and justice for all", and so on. No, I don't actually think that God prefers the United States over Australia or Mongolia. I doubt God exists at all, and as for liberty and justice for all... I rest my case.

[...] The same can be said for a lot of Soviet citizens, Russians, German, French, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, Arabian, Israeli, et al citizens. People tend to like where they live, and they all maintain a mix of realistic and delusional ideas about their homeland.

Were any of us absolutely honest, realistic, and totally non-delusional, we'd have to consider blowing our brains out forthwith. — Bitter Crank

I've given some thoughts to this excellent post. Thanks for it and others on the subject.

I agree that nations are based on myths, rather than 'lies'.

However, i see a non sequitur between your conclusion and the body of your post, where you acknowledge a great deal of American 'unpleasantness' yet conclude again and again (and rightly so, I feel exactly the same): "I still love my country". Your post proves that it is possible to love one's country and yet face its history without blinking, so to speak. It doesn't support the conclusion that one must turn a blind eye to past misdeeds and injustice to survive as a citizen of any country. On the contrary.

Second, you know the well worn argument that if you love your country you should try and better it, and help repair it if you can. Part of that involves sorting out a messy historical heritage the best we can, and try and find some peace with the past.

Because ultimately, these foundational myths are aspirations. Liberté, Égalité, Fraternité. These are things my people believe in, i.e. aspire to, not real things existing now in France in the absolute or having existed at any point in history. Understood as such, as a national quest of certain common values, nationalism makes more sense to me than as the sacred defense of the lares (and lies) of our tribal ancestors. The future can be better than the past all the while remaining faithful to it, if we try to work on our past and learn from it in a (semi) objective, scientific manner.

And we don't need to topple all the statues either. I agree some heroisation / mythification can be useful here or there to build this common core of political values.

Last argument: some of this nationalist historiography written by past generations, with its all its well-meaning nation-building mythos, also carries gross prejudice against neighbouring nations, grudges from way back, and long-held hatred too. They help perpetuate xenophobia.

In Europe and America
There's a growing feeling of hysteria
Conditioned to respond to all the threats
In the rhetorical speeches of the Soviets
Mister Krushchev said, "We will bury you"
I don't subscribe to this point of view
It'd be such an ignorant thing to do
If the Russians love their children too

How can I save my little boy
From Oppenheimer's deadly toy?
There is no monopoly on common sense
On either side of the political fence
We share the same biology,
Regardless of ideology
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

There is no historical precedent
To put the words in the mouth of the president
There's no such thing as a winnable war
It's a lie we don't believe anymore
Mister Reagan says, "We will protect you"
I don't subscribe to this point of view
Believe me when I say to you
I hope the Russians love their children too

We share the same biology,
Regardless of ideology
But what might save us, me and you
Is if the Russians love their children too

We could still fail better next time, that's true! :grin:

I was not talking about you, but to you, about something we seem to agree about.

Edit: ... : that we should forget the blame game and focus on what can be done to improve... Err... what exactly could be a goal to this conversation? Improve the 'situation'? Further our own national interest, to each his own? Or rather, aren't we talking here about our collective survival as a world in (relative) peace?

Nukes have been put on the table.

To me, this would be a good time to think not as individuals, not as partisans, not as patriots, but as a species. Are we tired of living yet?

I wouldn't go so far, to me we're not judges.TPF posters don't have a responsibility or obligation to lean in and reach a verdict. We won't in any case.

But i think we do need to remember that on this thread, unlike on others, we are not talking about some mental experiment à la Schrodinger cat, where we can freely unwind our most wild suppositions without fear of any consequence. Rather, here we are talking of people who being killed right now, in a war that involves propaganda being spread on traditional media and on Internet platforms such as TPF. So perhaps a little gravitas is in order, and attention to the real risk of inadvertently spreading propaganda. And this cuts both ways. Clearly, CNN and the WSJ and some other media from our good friends over the Atlantic are on a mission too.

Putin certainly appears to be engaging in an embarrassingly crude property snatch. Urban sophisticates usually try some more polite, subtle, or underhanded method of stealing wealth. I guess that means Putin is not an urban sophisticate. — Bitter Crank

Good for him. We should all shed our urban sophistication at this point and understand that it is indeed about tanks. And the right response to a tank is an anti-tank weapon, or another tank. Hence Germany is doubling its military budget, which may indeed rub some German and non-German sophisticates the wrong way.

The mythos part is interesting. Still chewing on it.

indeed, and propaganda is part of encouraging the troops, etc. But we are not playing the game here, we are discussing the game being played. — unenlightened

I'm afraid Internet platforms are part of the game now, not outside of it anymore. TPF may be too small to attract attention yet, but you can bet that this "blame NATO" game is being played all over the interwebs and in traditional media as well.

As for brothers and sisters, I think the minority Russian speaking population is what the Russian population would side with, if they are typical human beings. — FreeEmotion

The brotherhood between Ukrainians and Russians is deep, and has been harped upon since what? Peter the Great? It's like if the US invaded the UK. It makes no sense to the average Petrov.

The same sentiment is creeping all over the (non-western) world. People are tired of Europe and the US being top dogs. They want geopolitical change as a form of revenge against western arrogance, but also just for the sake of change. Many Africans for instance are curious to see what a world dominated by China will look like. They are not naïve about it, or day-dreaming. They are just tired of us.

At which point of grandmaster gamesmanship, blame is inappropriate all round. You lose the world championship - it's not a sin to be the second best player in the world. — unenlightened

Except that apportioning blame is part of the game. There is a battle for public opinion in Russia, Europe and elsewhere. For the Russian leadership, blaming the West for the war in Ukraine is a matter of survival. If Putin fails to convincingly pin this war on NATO and "Ukrainian drug addicts", if the average folks realize that their president has bombed their Ukrainian brothers and sisters for no reason other than a power trip, then Putin is politically dead. And possibly, biologically dead too. So blaming the West is key to his survival.

Unfortunately, the nation state seems to be a necessity in organizing the world, unless we want an amorphous mass of humanity ruled from Washington or New York.

And as the state is a political construct, this involves a narrative or "foundation myth" that, almost inevitably (like all things in politics), will contain counterfactual elements. Even in their personal life, people tend to tell myths, or lies, to themselves and to others. — Apollodorus

Okay, that's interesting. Do all polities need a foundational lie? I'm not against the nation state as a concept, but it's almost impossible to implement. So yes, there might be a need to hide the truth to shore up legitimacy. Gona chew on this.

Greece and Spain are now debtors prisons and fascism is on the rise across the continent.
— StreetlightX

No. You are just obsessed of classify everything in economics and GDP. Did you know the French GDP is more indebted that Spain's one?
You don't know anything about my country and do not speak please.
But, as jamalrob said, it is better to stay in the topic. — javi2541997

It's better when it suits him, I guess.

For info, my point questioning @StreetlightX was to try and show that he is grossly misinformed about Europe. On the topic of the EU, he comes across as a FAUX News consumer.

Have a little patience. Also, @jamalrob, you may wish to clarify if you are participating in the discussion as a contributor or as a referee. The two roles are not compatible.

Have you ever lived in Europe, by any chance?

Irreverent — StreetlightX

You want more reverence? Let me see what I can do.

May I ask, your appropriately condescending highness, which nation has had the privilege of welcoming your splendid presence in its midst?

Where are you from?

The UK left because of their racism. Good riddance to then, their heart was never in it. And if other countries want to leave the Union, they are most welcome. Less free wheelers is good for a team.

Greece's collective ass was saved by Europe. They know it. The Greeks are not leaving the EU.

Where are you from?

Incidentally this is effectively the same shit that the EU does to countries today, who come under its ambit. — StreetlightX

I wonder why them countries keep applying to EU membership all the time, as if it was a good thing to trade with Europe. Little do they know that Brussels is the tower of Mordor.

Indeed, just because a bunch of insecure jerks say they feel threatened, doesn't make it true.

For instance, incompetent people often feel threatened by competent people, but I don't think we should protect the incompetent from the competent.

Always the heavy reader... Anyway, Jupiter Ascending is made for teenagers, but it's surprisingly good, as far as these things go.

"eternal recurrence of the same". — 180 Proof

That's death's nickname. Life is about the not-so-eternal springing of the radically new.

But only in the same dismal way as whistling in the dark. — Cuthbert

Thank you for this. I had to google up the expression. It's a good one, and I guess we all whistle in the dark on this thread, as loud as we can...