He already signalled his demands at the negotiating table: he wants Ukraine to be recognized as neutral. He wants it demilitarized, and he's probably going to choose its next leader, who'll be a puppet. — frank
If you're going to require that NATO and the EU be Grandmaster chess players in this environment and expect them to respond precisely to the strategic environment, then let's impose that same standard on Putin. — Hanover
So blaming the West is key to his survival. — Olivier5
The proposal you've suggested is for Ukraine to surrender and hand over the keys to Russia. Surrender avoids war for sure. — Hanover
if the average folks realize that their president has bombed their Ukrainian brothers and sisters for no reason other than a power trip — Olivier5
They won't have a choice if the West reaches an agreement with Putin. One wild card is that I think this is personal for Biden. I think he wants to take a chunk out of Putin. — frank
He already signalled his demands at the negotiating table: he wants Ukraine to be recognized as neutral. He wants it demilitarized, and he's probably going to choose its next leader, who'll be a puppet.
He'll basically put a squash on Ukraine's economy by diminishing its ties with Europe.
The west will then back off the sanctions and go back to normal with no further overtures to Ukraine and less trust for Russia than it had. — frank
As for brothers and sisters, I think the minority Russian speaking population is what the Russian population would side with, if they are typical human beings. — FreeEmotion
The same sentiment is creeping all over the (non-western) world. People are tired of Europe and the US being top dogs. They want geopolitical change as a form of revenge against western arrogance, but also just for the sake of change. Many Africans for instance are curious to see what a world dominated by China will look like. They are not naïve about it, or day-dreaming. They are just tired of us. — Olivier5
For the Russian leadership, blaming the West for the war in Ukraine is a matter of survival. If Putin fails to convincingly pin this war on NATO and "Ukrainian drug addicts", if the average folks realize that their president has bombed their Ukrainian brothers and sisters for no reason other than a power trip, then Putin is politically dead. And possibly, biologically dead too. So blaming the West is key to his survival. — Olivier5
At which point of grandmaster gamesmanship, blame is inappropriate all round. You lose the world championship - it's not a sin to be the second best player in the world.
— unenlightened
Except that apportioning blame is part of the game. — Olivier5
There are some aspects of Chinese culture that just rub me the wrong way, sort of like I gather American ways irritate the fuck out of non-Americans. — frank
I think he wants Russia to be among equals among core nations. He needs to do something about his economy and his legitimacy though. — frank
frank
Some? Are you talking about culture or politics? If people think a Chinese superpower rule is good for the world, they must be totally unaware of how things are in China. Culture is one thing, that's the day-to-day interaction of regular people. But the politics of China is not ready for global export, it's broken to its core. — Christoffer
as if the actions of the American or European states have anything to do with any any sense of cultural identification. I guess this is how fascism takes root: when people look at state actions and think: that's 'us'. — StreetlightX
I could talk for a while about why Americans assume their political structure should be exported to raise up all the suffering people of the world, IOW, why the American system is kind of like a religion, but that might be too far afield of the thread's topic.
I don't know if China also thinks their system (which is still evolving) should be exported. — frank
anyone with eyes can see that there is no stronger bond of solidarity and unity than among capitalists themselves. There is plenty of unity and brothery love. Dead Ukrainians be damned. — StreetlightX
foundation myth — Apollodorus
foundational lie — Olivier5
a myth or mythology.
"the Arthurian mythos"
(in literature) a traditional or recurrent narrative theme or plot structure.
a set of beliefs or assumptions about something.
"the rhetoric and mythos of science create the comforting image of linear progression toward truth"
indeed, and propaganda is part of encouraging the troops, etc. But we are not playing the game here, we are discussing the game being played. — unenlightened
All I've tried to say, that it wasn't the only reason for this war. — ssu
Listen, we can talk about the wrongs that the US and the West has done. Yes, Putin has referred to them too. But this thread is about the Ukraine crisis. Or now the Russo-Ukrainian war. — ssu
If you want to talk about US agenda and how it has extended it's network of alliances, including NATO, then fine. But then that talk isn't about the war in Ukraine in general. — ssu
But sure, it absolutely is the case that Putin should take into account any response to his action; but no one is arguing - at least I hope no one is arguing - that he hasn't. That he innocently waltzed into war like a woopsie. By most accounts the speed and depth of the response have been a surprise, but I'd be happy to wager he didn't think he'd get a slap on the wrist either. — StreetlightX
Incredible how quickly cultural chauvinism immediately gets translated from geopolitical action: as if the actions of the American or European states have anything to do with any any sense of cultural identification. I guess this is how fascism takes root: when people look at state actions and think: that's 'us' — StreetlightX
Putin certainly appears to be engaging in an embarrassingly crude property snatch. Urban sophisticates usually try some more polite, subtle, or underhanded method of stealing wealth. I guess that means Putin is not an urban sophisticate. — Bitter Crank
Nothing concrete can prove which it is? So invading Ukraine is the same as Sweden increasing its military spending and maybe joining NATO. — Christoffer
It makes it harder to discuss the topic overall if a foundational piece is still up for debate. — Christoffer
Burden of proof still applies. — Christoffer
If NATO were to be blamed, then his motives would have some form of just cause. But if NATO is not to be blamed, then he acts alone or he acts through false or through invented reasons. — Christoffer
Well, the reasons don't matter since joining NATO is basically done to increase security through an alliance of defense. — Christoffer
You are here basically saying that nations actively join NATO "to threaten Russia" and if I cannot say the actual reason, it means the reason is "to threaten Russia". Really? — Christoffer
RECKLESSNESS DOES NOT MEAN IT'S NATO'S FAULT PUTIN INVADES UKRAINE! — Christoffer
Imagine if Putin really is delusional, imagine that he truly is a fucking crazy man who belongs in a mental institution. Now, his mental condition makes him perceive everyone as a threat. People start taking actions to be able to have a defense against any kind of action he would take, irrational as he is. He doesn't see it that way, he sees conspiracy, he sees all of them threatening him, so he acts out violently. Fortunately, people had the defense, so they could defend against it, but your argument is that joining together for defense is partly to blame for Putin's violent outburst, so we should blame everyone who wanted to defend themselves. — Christoffer
Businesses like predictability, stability. And Capital, at heart, wants a borderless world. (Since the world still has borders, you might as well use that, but at bottom politics is a nuisance.) — Srap Tasmaner
I'm afraid Internet platforms are part of the game now, not outside of it anymore. TPF may be too small to attract attention yet, but you can bet that this "blame NATO" game is being played all over the interwebs and in traditional media as well. — Olivier5
To me, this would be a good time to think not as individuals, not as partisans, not as patriots, but as a species. Are we tired of living yet? — Olivier5
– “ … you must go on. I can’t go on. I’ll go on” — Beckett,The Unnamable
“Ever tried. Ever failed. No matter. Try again. Fail again. Fail better.” — Beckett, Worstward Ho
Get involved in philosophical discussions about knowledge, truth, language, consciousness, science, politics, religion, logic and mathematics, art, history, and lots more. No ads, no clutter, and very little agreement — just fascinating conversations.