@Judaka I agree. Power is always oppressive and wielded by wealthy elites. That is what govt is!
Yep,it is astonishing when people judge a person purely by the politics or "history " of the country they live in.
I'm sure timmy takes full responsibility for the US handling of the covid situation in the US.
As for those Germans,well "history shows" they are imperialists...

@Augustusea Personally both the US and Iran have vested interests. It's up to you who you prefer. The Iraqi ruling elites have vested interests for power. Iraq is majority Shia and has been through a lot. I hope the situation improves,but I know many Iraqis are just getting on with their lives. Waiting for political leaders is a losing game. Life in Palestine still goes on.
Political leaders want you to feel powerless so you vote for
and support them.

Middle east being war torn?
Who funded and founded Israel? Who invaded Lebanon,Iraq and funded ISIS. Who funded hizbollah and Hamas? The US Saudi and Iran really helped exacerbate and create a lot of these conflicts.
The US admin freedom? They have been involved in umpteen conflicts and instigated conflict all around the world. It's great now the US admin has finally learnt that it cant flex its military muscle after having its ass kicked numerous times. Viva la peace!
And notice,I separate American individuals from the US elite ruling class. Were not all generalizing fools and crude identitarians!
History is a lie agreed upon.

@Judaka :up:

When it comes to politics people who base their opinions on wikipedia and propagandist history will make ludicrous generalisations and as pointed out treat people as a homogenous group and not individuals and multiple classes. Let's be real here,the ruling class/the wealthy are those who dictate the general detailed thrust of development and policy as long as they have the backing of a majority of the populace.
In the middle east there is a plurality of ethnic wealthy elites with ruling potential and populist support. That is why the strongman leader found support there. With US intervention/theft this blew the door wide open for civil conflict and power struggles fuelled and helped by Saudi US and Iranian resources. As things have settled the media and disgruntled elites will always exaggerate the situation on the ground for political purposes.
My best advise would be to be an individual and dont expect your govt to nanny you or have your best interests at heart. Covid shows precisely how incorrigbly selfish and corrupt all govts are. Even the good ol US of A.
US Govts shit is just as stinky as Iraqs. Nay,worse!

The only thing embarrassing is this guy
being a mod and other mods not calling him out.
An interesting thread with some interesting replies.
Always funny when a man speaks against political fascism yet acts like this in a public forum.
Ah,the hypocrisy of bureaucracy.

Conciousness is the Ability to Describe.

@Benj96 That old cynic is dead. :cool:

@Tzeentch With respect,you havent really engaged in dialogue but just a few isolated quotes whilst ignoring the import of the republic and Plato in general. This minimalist approach you forward as discussion whilst ignoring numerous questions I have asked.
And then a smiley!? Come on! If you have a point write your own words.

@tim wood As I said previously you are pedantic and low level. Your arguments above highlight this. Trying to use a dictionary to refute and appealing to a guy quoting a few passages of the republic whilst ignoring the import of plato in general. As are many you are mired in appeals to authority, a sign of an unoriginal derivative knowledge.
:cool: Silence? ! I'm too eloquent and high energy for you.
Maybe like plato you would like poets to be quiet. And there my point on plato is proved once again. :halo:

@tim wood Great trouble! Your strawmanning and patronising lowbrow wit is indicative of your feeling un comfortable. I'm wise to your "debate" tactics you will always ask for more and more evidence,and then you will say oh,I dont understand. I discuss with folks who want an even handed exchange and can agree to disagree or refine understandings,not pendants who find themself alarmed by new thinking. Tbh,your not worthy of discussion,I've seen you in other threads, rigid pompous and pathetic.

@A Seagull I agree. Really the wider point I'm making is that all philosophers have personal agendas and that is obvious. These personal values underpin their ideas and thought. Every human has values and this is reflected in their thought processes and behaviour. I think folks would understand thinkers better if they treated them as expressing their personal values rather than thinking they are some
Cold abstract truthseekers. Ditto scientists.

@Tzeentch I'm interested in original personal understandings not just regurgitating sources. You keep quoting this analogy as if thats the premise of all platos work. Thats just weak. I'm wondering if you've read any other dialogues or in fact the whole republic?
As for the swines Pearl's,gosh so subtle and original.
Seems like ad hominem is par for the course with lower level intellects.

@A Seagull A lot of the presocratics were naturalistic thinkers yes,and I'm sure they built on the ideas of earlier greeks but added their own as well.
Plato is overtly and absolutely political as well as positing a demiurge,laws for society and an explanation and supposed origin of the phenomenal world. Platos blueprint has been used down the ages and adjusted for by politicians and thinkers after him till the present day.
Egypt was the springboard for his ideas.
I dont see why people dont call him out for the totalitarian that he was.

@Tzeentch Come on. The republic is a big book and you want to quote a few passages of dialect?
Let me ask you in your own words. What did Plato write these political tracts for? Entertainment? Thought exercises? What was the holy lie all the death penalties and the elaborate hierarchy and stratification for?
I suppose Marx and Nietzsche were just interested in the intellectual fantasy of writing as well?

@Tzeentch You are aware plato also has a dialogue after this called "Laws" and you are also aware that plato puts several ironic and dialectic arguments into the mouth of Socrates.
The republic and many of platos dialogues lay the foundations and principles for rule by priest and authoritarian means. You want to take an ironic passage and say Plato was just writing an expansive thought experiment. Maybe you havent heard of the holy lie.

@tim wood Jealousy will get you nowhere timmy!
Corona derangement syndrome plus getting schooled by a newbie!
Number of posts doesnt equal Intellect.
As I said a few days ago your low level sarcasm and patronising manner are indicative of a lack of philosophical acumen. :cool:

@tim wood Once again your lack of comprehension and straw manning shines through.
Let's put it this way,you make it out that it's so hard to understand Plato as a whole,his main gist. That's your problem,not mine. The point is,I back my intelligence,I dont require your bogus logic to learn.
You have no point. Ponder that through your out of focus
purple eye glass. :cool:

@tim wood I know what I have read. I understand platos mindset and what his project was and how its now used.
Your method of interpretation is yours mine is mine.
I do find it amusing you defending plato and making assumptions that you understand him and others need your help in doing so.
I dont need lenses!

@tim wood Platos agenda was a totalitarian project and specifically designed for a political elite of "philosopher kings" Aka priests. The mischief was always there and used as a springboard and propaganda for later thinkers and elites to bolster their opium for the masses and justify their methods of oligarchy.
Which subsequent thinking are you referring to?

@Judaka Both excellent posts.
It's really bizarre how an Individuals positive qualities are regarded as some kind of unfairness or based on an arbitrary group definition.
I once had a Nietzschean leftist tell me " not everyone is as self assured as you". And he revelled in the fact that he could be try to be a spokesman for the less self assured.
Nothing to do with empathy or equality but all to do with him being an elite saviour.
The elites want this narrative as reinforces their narrative of saviourhood and keeps folks divided for political purposes.
Folks need to take responsibility for their own success and stop blame shifting.

@ssu Excellent post. Its really not that hard to see whose privileged and who is not. And it highlights that even in a country like yours with very few coloured people the same problems exist. Structural classicism exists everywhere.
I've said this time and again how are poor white people privileged compared to upper class black people?
I see this politically correct terminology as a deliberate tactic by parties and govts to cause friction and to garner votes based on falsehoods.
People must be treated as Individuals and free speech respected. First principle of Liberty and civilisation.

White privilege is in fact a racist term. That's the harm.
I agree with Judaka on the need to not regard people as races or cohesive groups but as individuals.
Real inequality is economic and this is maintained by Plutocracy. How about mega rich privilege? Because the govt actually do constitute a real group of wealth and elitism composed of various sexes and colours.

In these material/immaterial debates what gets lost is the difference between matter and animation. Also,immaterial does not mean non physical. The concept Non physical has no literal meaning. Everything is physical!
Is breathing material? How heavy is ones breathing?

@tim wood Come Tim. You understood my post that way! Life is the similiar quality that all living beings possess. I clearly talked about the law of Identity which is also individuality. My nuance was about living things not being seperate from what we mean by life.
To say a something is alive is to point to its qualities not just contrasting it to things not alive!
And words they are an expression of life,the expressor is alive. Let's distinguish between spoken and written words.
Spoken words are living. The speaker is living.

@tim wood Living things and Life are exactly the same thing. Does there exist a thing called life seperate from living beings?
Platonism/reification surely has confused many minds on even the most basic fundamental logic!
Materialists don't seem to realise they have replaced the dogma of monotheism with the dogma of material monism.

@Philosophim Life and Intelligence are the same thing.
How are you distinguishing them? Matter is not Intelligent. Life/intelligence arranges matter and creates dynamic new shapes and patterns.
Matter does not self organise nor seek out energy to sustain its form.
Materialism is more than strange or fiction its positively a falsehood. Reality? Come now. A set of dogmas and misobservations trumps human experience and the logic of Identity. Wow!

@Avery :rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :cool:

@Gregory If people actually understood that ideas are in our minds then "philosophy" and science might actually progress.
What mischief Plato and platonism has caused!!!

@Philosophim So the paint creates the Artist?
The artist is a result of the complexity of the paint?
All these words ,fear,impetus these are attributes qualities of Living beings not matter.
Yeah,I back up my claim. My desire my animation is physical not material. I sculpt and use matter just like any artist.
Your claim is what, that a special brew of paint starts moving having will desires and starts talking then starts studying the paint brew that created him! And you want me to back up my claim! Yours is a miraculous extraordinary claim. Mine is shown every time I waggle my finger.

@tim wood Living things are not created. You cannot create Life from non life. Living things grow continuously.
The principle of Identity is an expression of Life and conceptualized by humans. It's not some platonic non living idea seperate from life. Doors do not self identify.
The whole notion of conflating Life with non life is what creates this confusion. You do realise that life has never been seen to arise from non life? You know why? Because it's impossible. Life is it's own proof. We are here typing.
Proof for matter creating life?

@khaled No,the body becomes inanimate. Hence my fingernail example. Life is animation not the fingernail.

@Philosophim That was the point on finger nails i was alluding to. You are indeed on the right track as to what I am saying about Identity and life.
Of course death is not some trivial event. We have Family and things we want to do. And it can involve pain and the unknown so thats why there is fear. To say nothing of religious upbringing tainting this anxiety.
And English is my first language. Maybe I write too well for philosophy. :cool:

@tim wood I will discuss with those who have a modicum of manners and who actually try to have some eloquence in their intellect. And what is this both? I will write and discuss as I please. If you have nothing productive to say go continue your pathetic discussion with Frank and Amen. This passive aggressive posturing is just a reflection of your intolerance and rigid thinking.
And if you actually try to understand or ask questions in a decent manner I will respond. Pompous much!
Quit your regimented ad hom and actually respond with some nuance.
And how about answering my simple question. Fingernails???

@tim wood Ah lowbrow sarcasm,the refuge of the inflexible! Here's some nuance here brother. Your fingernails are they living or dead?

@khaled I said a living being is NOT created so cant die.
A piece of wood cannot become a living being. A living being cannot become a piece of wood.

Artefacts are created by living beings and do not posess life. So artefacts decay and are recycled. A living being is not created and grows continually so cannot die in terms of losing its Identity. The Principle of Identity is ubiquitous
and unassailable. Life cannot become non life and vice versa.

@Aleph Numbers Of course I'm serious. I've seen the UK democracy at close quarters. A lot of folks dont have much faith in politics. They dont even vote a lot of times.
Myself as a thinking person I've seen that politics is incorrigible and no amount of ideology or research is going to disprove what I've seen with my own eyes and intellect.

@Aleph Numbers A system of govt by the whole population through elected representatives. Sounds good in theory. But you typically have only two candidates and you dont get to vote on policy law or economics. 1933 Germany was a democracy no? I live in the UK,that's a parliamentary democracy. I have no say or input into govt policy law or economics. I dont trust the politicians of either side,the lying and crony capitalism is rampant,as is the elitism and corruption
Israel is run by wealthy oligarchs a kibbutz is not a govt.
The greeks of course were run by the mega rich.
So called research and citations does not equal the lived experience and obvious fact that the mega rich are the only ones with the resources to govern. And is research really going to be widely disseminated that undermines the whole premise of govt and calls out politicians for the incorrigible thieves that they are.
Real politik is machiavelli and oligarchy ,not fluffy academia or lightweight university discussion.

@Aleph Numbers I consider ALL governments plutocracies. Just some have different social practices and policies. How would you define democracy?