Artefacts are created by living beings and do not posess life. So artefacts decay and are recycled. A living being is not created and grows continually so cannot die in terms of losing its Identity. The Principle of Identity is ubiquitous
and unassailable. Life cannot become non life and vice versa.

First off, no matter what you say people will still be afraid of death, or at least avoid it. We're built that way. And secondly, you assume that death is a dreamless sleep but you've never been dead as far as I can see. The source of people's fear of death is partially that they don't have a clue what will happen when they die.

"A living being is created so it can't die" makes no sense to me. Care to explain?

@khaled I said a living being is NOT created so cant die.
A piece of wood cannot become a living being. A living being cannot become a piece of wood.

I'm sure you mean something your words aren't conveying. Please try again. (And btw, wood is living unless it's dead.)

@tim wood Ah lowbrow sarcasm,the refuge of the inflexible! Here's some nuance here brother. Your fingernails are they living or dead?

Fear is an emotion that stops us from doing harm to ourselves, or to things we care about. It is an emotion that helps in loss prevention.

You absolutely should fear death. That fear motivates you to take care of yourself, which results in a better quality of life. It prevents you from putting yourself in a situation of high risk. It helps you evaluate and think about situations before you get in there, and its too late for regrets.

But that is all we should fear. We should not fear what comes beyond, whether there is any existence or is not. We should fear the loss of what we have now, and the potential we could have while in THIS life. Death means no more breathing. No more sunsets. No more encounters with people, deep thoughts or emotions. Its the end.

If you do not fear that, then there is something wrong with you that you should get looked at or worked on. The base state of life should be to desire to keep living. It is a fundamental to being a "living" being, and not merely a non renewable chemical reaction that reacts and burns out without any say in the matter.

All right, What you've written so far doesn't make much sense. And non sequitors don't cut it. I f you can handle it, discuss away. I'll read. If you cannot, save us both from wasting time and effort.

@tim wood I will discuss with those who have a modicum of manners and who actually try to have some eloquence in their intellect. And what is this both? I will write and discuss as I please. If you have nothing productive to say go continue your pathetic discussion with Frank and Amen. This passive aggressive posturing is just a reflection of your intolerance and rigid thinking.
And if you actually try to understand or ask questions in a decent manner I will respond. Pompous much!
Quit your regimented ad hom and actually respond with some nuance.
And how about answering my simple question. Fingernails???

Artifacts are created by living beings and do not possess life. — Asif

Granted.

So artifacts decay and are recycled. — Asif

Granted
.

A living being is not created and grows continually so cannot die in terms of losing its Identity. — Asif

What living being would that be? What living being is a) not created, b) grows continuously and c) cannot die in terms of losing its identity? Are identities living things or artifacts? What does living or dying have to do with identity?

The Principle of Identity is ubiquitous and unassailable. — Asif

Granted. You do understand it's the principle that's ubiquitous and unassailable, and that only as a principle, yes?

Life cannot become non life and vice versa. — Asif

Meaning? If you mean "life" as an abstract concept, that which living things share in common (being alive) then granted. But that's nothing for individuals.

I wasn't being sarcastic. You're saying things that don't make sense. I invited you to try again.

Fingernails??? — Asif

Far as I know, from living matter. Whether they're alive or dead I don't know. Common usage holds they're not alive, but after I'm dead, they keep growing. Go figure.

Fyi, fingernails are dead. They are dead cells pushed out. They also do not continue to grow after you die. Your skin will rot and recede away revealing the nail that was previously being pushed underneath it, but that is all.

It seems like the OP's topic is being forgotten though. Asif, forgive me if I'm wrong, but it seems like English may be a second language to you. Perhaps in your language what you stated would be better understood, so forgive us native speakers for not quite understanding your meaning. Are you stating that one cannot "die" because then that would be the negation of one's identity as a living being?

The best I can think of is if you were "dead", it wouldn't be "you", because "you" are a living being. The shell left behind would be dead matter, but it would not be you. Let me know if I'm on the right track, or if there is further explanation needed.

If this is so, how does this relate to fear? Do you believe that because one's identity is living, it is impossible for a living thing to ever cease to be living? Thus we have no need to fear death?

A living being becomes inanimate object after they die no? So I’m not sure what you mean

@Philosophim That was the point on finger nails i was alluding to. You are indeed on the right track as to what I am saying about Identity and life.
Of course death is not some trivial event. We have Family and things we want to do. And it can involve pain and the unknown so thats why there is fear. To say nothing of religious upbringing tainting this anxiety.
And English is my first language. Maybe I write too well for philosophy. :cool:

@khaled No,the body becomes inanimate. Hence my fingernail example. Life is animation not the fingernail.

So death, as a void of all living qualities must neither be a particularly bad or good experience. It's likely not even an experience at all. In this sense death is akin to a "dreamless sleep" which most would argue is a relatively fine and comfortable state of being. — Benj96

I agree. :up:


“I'm not afraid of death; I just don't want to be there when it happens.”

“You can live to be a hundred if you give up all the things that make you want to live to be a hundred.”

“I don't want to achieve immortality through my work; I want to achieve immortality through not dying. I don't want to live on in the hearts of my countrymen; I want to live on in my apartment.”
― Woody Allen

@tim wood Living things are not created. You cannot create Life from non life. Living things grow continuously.
The principle of Identity is an expression of Life and conceptualized by humans. It's not some platonic non living idea seperate from life. Doors do not self identify.
The whole notion of conflating Life with non life is what creates this confusion. You do realise that life has never been seen to arise from non life? You know why? Because it's impossible. Life is it's own proof. We are here typing.
Proof for matter creating life?

Asif, are we not completely made up of matter? I think we're emphasizing that there is some great difference between life and non-life, when that is not a given. As a basic descriptor, life seems to be a material and chemical reaction that actively seeks to sustain itself.

For example, if I mix baking soda and vinegar together, we get a reaction. Once it ends, its over. The vinegar does not seek to replenish itself or the baking soda. "Life" is a chemical reaction that seeks to replenish itself. When it is running low on the things it needs to sustain itself, it gets water or food. When it realizes it can no longer extend itself, it creates some type of copy of itself to keep going.

But this is ALL matter doing this. The need for self-identity is not relevant to life either. Bacterium do not know what they are. I think you are describing intelligence, which is when matter gains greater awareness and ability to replenish its chemical reaction.

To me, fear is an impetus to drive the chemical reaction that is life to keep going, or avoid things that would end its reaction prematurely. All of this is done through energy and matter. Can you back up your claim that life does not come from matter? Is this a purely spiritual or mental identity on your part?

@Philosophim So the paint creates the Artist?
The artist is a result of the complexity of the paint?
All these words ,fear,impetus these are attributes qualities of Living beings not matter.
Yeah,I back up my claim. My desire my animation is physical not material. I sculpt and use matter just like any artist.
Your claim is what, that a special brew of paint starts moving having will desires and starts talking then starts studying the paint brew that created him! And you want me to back up my claim! Yours is a miraculous extraordinary claim. Mine is shown every time I waggle my finger.

I think you're still talking about intelligence, and not life itself. If you want to talk about intelligence as something separate from life, we can go down that route after. But first, do you not think a bacterium is composed of matter? Matter interacts with other matter all of the time, and in that clash, a new shape emerges. Life is simply a set of complex reactions that seeks to preserve itself. When an amoeba is hungry, it is running out of energy to sustain itself, so it seeks out more matter to sustain its chemical reaction.

This is not strange or fiction. This is the reality of the world around us.

@Philosophim Life and Intelligence are the same thing.
How are you distinguishing them? Matter is not Intelligent. Life/intelligence arranges matter and creates dynamic new shapes and patterns.
Matter does not self organise nor seek out energy to sustain its form.
Materialism is more than strange or fiction its positively a falsehood. Reality? Come now. A set of dogmas and misobservations trumps human experience and the logic of Identity. Wow!

Living things are not created. You cannot create Life from non life. — Asif

You're not distinguishing living things from life. Makes a difference. Living things are created willy-nilly, come, and go. And the idea of life from non-life appears to be exactly what happened on planet Earth, and probably wherever else it arose. In any case it had to start somewhere from something.

@tim wood Living things and Life are exactly the same thing. Does there exist a thing called life seperate from living beings?
Platonism/reification surely has confused many minds on even the most basic fundamental logic!
Materialists don't seem to realise they have replaced the dogma of monotheism with the dogma of material monism.

Then you and I are exactly the same thing? To my way of thinking living things are alive, and each and every one different from each and every other one. To say they are alive is to say they are different from things not alive. "Life" is just an abstract term. That is, life is not alive.

@tim wood Come Tim. You understood my post that way! Life is the similiar quality that all living beings possess. I clearly talked about the law of Identity which is also individuality. My nuance was about living things not being seperate from what we mean by life.
To say a something is alive is to point to its qualities not just contrasting it to things not alive!
And words they are an expression of life,the expressor is alive. Let's distinguish between spoken and written words.
Spoken words are living. The speaker is living.

Ok. But you've lost me on the way. What's your point?

I have an analytically slightly different approach than you. I'm curious what you think about it:

First:
Simply by a the biological imprinted self-preservation instict everyone is afraid to die. That is GOOD! It gives us the ability to characterize things, situations, animals and people as dangerous before they affect us which helps us to survive. Thanks to that fear you made it so far. Yay!
And second:
When this fear though becomes an intellectual topic getting analyzed and discussed, it forms not only basic questions of what "life" and "death" is but also entire concepts based upon. And depending what culture we live in this concept varies. Some concepts reunite the departed back with the earth in form of reincarnation, others lift their souls to a new place of existence and other concepts again try to bridge between both.
Despite all different models you can summond that it includes the wish for immortality.

Now, because we express our existence as either "to be or not to be", being dead would mean "not to be" anymore - the ending of your own consciousness.
"Cogito, ergo sum"
"I think, therefore I am."
And since you cannot be aware of your first "state of being", (you just gain awareness that your existence must have had a starting point and collect memories down the road) being set in your own "being" and only experienced yourself that way, we are able to define timelines from our point of existence which we call "past", "presence" and "future". And the "future" is where the fear kicks in again. We then try to visualize us the next level of "being". Since death obviously appears to be that border everyones life runs toward to, we look for a word of what is behind that side we know, behind here and there, and call it “hereafter”.

Dying as a metamorphosis offers now two options:
The continued existence (whether in a metaphysical form or by reincarnation through another real physical being) or the absolute vanish.
With these options in mind, we are confronted inevitably with the question: "What does death look like?" And picturing "being dead" is a terrifying thought. On top of that such an abstract one that you can't put it any other way but picturing “nothing”. A "nothing" consisting any but darkness and emptiness. We cannot visualize this emptiness other than an room open to all sides.
But even this wallless space must have a starting point, a "point 0" if you will to even be capable to imagin it. And that is YOU. You in this center from which this emptyness expands.
But since death first was deterministically defined as the end of consciousness, that fear-based concept became a recursive construct, that excludes your own existence on one hand and on the other putting yourself the center of this non-existence.
It is an attempt to make a thought tangible that is not tangible. Fear awaits impossible thinking.
The hereafter is therefore a creation of an imaginable concept as a way out of a circumstance that is inconceivable.

————

However, after all debates and philosophical analyzes death remains a threattening circumstance, here is a more suitable idea for the logical-atheistic-minded that should serve as a replacement for the idea of the afterlife:

In your entire life you leave traces behind which are either from a a material or intellectual nature. Already in the pursuite of the self-realization we create things like art, writings (as this one), music and other content that leaves an impression in other people, kickstarts a discussion and lastly shapes somebodies character. And if we are just a little bit ambitious to want to enrich the lives of others in a positive way, this is an ascertained and multiplied continuation of our own existence in the world.
Neither death is of any importance nor the duration of one's own life, but only the meaning of which man is capable of giving one's own life and that of others.

well when something that was animated becomes inanimate doesn’t it mean that it is no longer alive? You seem to be implying that although the body is inanimate the “animation” itself sticks around but I don’t understand what that could mean.

You absolutely should fear death. That fear motivates you to take care of yourself, which results in a better quality of life. — Philosophim

I dont see how fearing death necessarily encourages/motivates you in life nor how not fearing death is a bad thing for having a good life. You could just as equally argue that fearing death could give you such anxiety around risk that you never even leave your apartment in case you die. What kind of quality of life is that. I dont fear death. That doesnt make me any less motivated to live it simply makes me less preoccupied with what happens at the end

You absolutely should fear death. — Philosophim

You're sure of that? Let's distinguish death and dying and set dying aside - I myself do not look forward in pleased anticipation of that!

Being dead, or not-Being, is simply the usual state of affairs - eleven-teen billion years at minimum v. your three-score-and-ten. As such, something to be accepted, at least in philosophical terms. And once accepted, then realized as a regulative idea for the best uses one can make of it.

Alternatively, would you live forever and deny yourself the possibility of not-being?