These are not bad suggestion Hippyhead, but it is a different model from what the forum is intended to be. Perhaps you should start your own philosophy forum with the ideas you have outlined? I mean this seriously and not as an insult. Fundamental differences in beliefs and the purpose of forums are why new one's are created all the time.

P1: Everything that isn’t infinite must have a cause — TheHedoMinimalist

This is an assumption, not a proof. In fact, I've argued elsewhere that this is actually impossible. Any time you start with an unproven statement, it is open to these kinds of attacks. I don't think the cosmological argument is any better.

By "ethics" do you mean a choice in how you will live? If so, how do you handle the self in situations when choice is removed? Our genetic disposition for example.

One way of removing the primary source of bias on philosophy forums, male ego, would be to remove all the screen names so that nobody can tell who said what. — Hippyhead

Ha ha! You know woman can have bias about people too Hippy? The problem of course with removing names would be the difficulty in tracking the conversation. There is an interesting idea though that whenever you entered into a thread, you were assigned a random name for that post. It would allow each thread to be a "fresh start". I try to do this in every thread I'm in. Who you are in one thread, does not necessitate who you are in another.

Also, when publishing philosophy, there are certain journals that are "blind" to the name. This is to allow the very thing you propose. As this is a forum, we are not at such a professional level however, and I'm not sure it would sit well with people.

So why remove political bias then? Because it is honestly a danger to free thought. Politics can get people to dig into issues, and feel threatened if they are challenged. Instead of thinking about them, they get emotional and put their own predictions straw men in the argument. I've seen it with religion too. I rarely tell people whether I'm religious or an atheist, because it seems to evoke the same biases thought process. People will ignore the argument, and put their own spin or opinion on something that isn't there.

Someone else accused the forum of having a bias. — Pfhorrest

The answer to them should be that philosophy is about trying to remove bias. That sounds like he was trying to troll, or an excuse as to why everyone seemed to disagree with him. I think a better approach, is to see if he was genuine and ask him why he felt that way. What specifically was liberal, conservative, or whatever he thought the forum was. Examining why he thought an idea was political would do better then falling into a trap of thinking that we have to view each other as "political entities".



We can listen to people's opinions without labeling them.

You know that political philosophy is a thing, right? We cannot "listen to other's points and arguments, and logically think through them " about politics and at the same time be prohibited from using its terminology. Makes no sense. — Kenosha Kid

Yes, but this can be discussed without attempting to label the forum goers as being a particular political nature. When people come to this forum it should be about philosophy. Not, I'm a political X, and that shapes how I view philosophy. The first is freedom of thought, the second is constrained.

There are many people who want to politicize things to use as a weapon, whether true or not. An attempt to defend or show the political nature of people here, only plays into that hand. The way to ensure this does not happen, is to remember what we are. Thinkers who are not bound by ideology, but seek to answer questions of a logical nature as free from bias as we can.

I think this sends the wrong message. We are here to think. We are here to listen to other's points and arguments, and logically think through them. It is not about being conservative, liberal, or political in any way. Such things often get in the way of free thought, and become arguments of ego and ideology.

I do not think things like this should be encouraged.

Both worlds are materially identical by definition. However, they differ in who one *is* in this world. If I am person A or Z, I have the body and the memories of person A or Z, respectively. — SolarWind

If they are materially identical, then the being would be materially identical as well. The only difference is location.

Look at it this way. I have two salt shakers that are materially identical in different worlds. Does that mean the salt shaker has a soul? No, it just means there is a clone in a different space.

Look at it in terms of probabilities. A good man is trying to do good. While sometimes they may do evil, it is unintentional and therefore less likely. Further, if they realize they've done evil, a good man will correct it.

Take the opposite view with an evil man. An evil person will attempt to do evil. While sometimes they may do good, it is unintentional and therefore less likely. Further, if they realize they've done good, an evil man will correct it.

My apologies if this has already been covered, but have you heard of the Golden Ratio? It is a ratio of the distances between geometric objects that artists have used for thousands of years to make pleasing architecture and objects.

https://mathworld.wolfram.com/GoldenRatio.html

What's interesting is its an irrational number, which means it technically can be approached, but not truly obtained.

Philosophim

It is not ethical for the workers to add more suffering to the animals than necessary. But that should be managed by the business. Incidents of particular employees acting unethically does not paint all people in the organization as wrong or unethical. Typically bringing these things to light puts pressure on business owners to fix their image.
— Philosophim

The aforesaid beatings and torture would not happen if people didn't pay for the animals products.

Surely one should stop purchasing it, thus eliminating any suffering that was resulting from you doing so. — Down The Rabbit Hole

Sorry for the delay on the reply. Saying the purchase of animal products is the cause of animal abuse, is not a logical conclusion. People choose to purchase animal products, and workers can choose to do so humanely, or inhumanely.

Its like saying money causes wars, so lets give up money. Its not money. Its how we choose to obtain it and use it that determines whether it is good or evil. Life is about the breakdown and consumption of other life. This is something we cannot avoid. People need/want meat and other animal products. We can advocate that this is done ethically. But because some choose to do so unethically, we should not purchase any products, even from those who do so humanely? That is not a proper conclusion.

Not to detract from the excellent recommendations you make here - they both make sense and are not beyond reach of mere mortals like us - but that's precisely why they seem so not true; after all, given their simplicity (???), many people should be virtuoso practitioners of the methods you described and yet there's no one whom we may justifiably attribute wisdom to. Is it because these traits of a wise person you listed are not as easy to cultivate as we suppose they are? Or is it something else... :chin:? — TheMadFool

What a nice compliment! I must return a compliment that often enjoy your posts as they are questions very few people ask. I think you bring a life to these boards that it would not have if you were not here.

As for why it is rare to encounter someone with wisdom...I believe that is because there is a difference in being told the road one should take, versus the action of actually walking it.

A curious mind: You've been on these boards enough to know the closed minded individuals. They have found what they wanted, are tired of questioning, or are full of their own ego. How many times in the past have we done this ourselves?

An honest heart: An honest heart will often show your beliefs to be wrong. An honest heart critically examines your own self and does not avoid the flaws it finds. How many of us truly like to admit we are wrong even to ourselves?

An ear to other opinions: How many of us listen to only that which we want to hear? When another opinion repulses you, do we still have an ear open to understand it before judging or dismissing it?

A rational viewpoint: Some are blessed with this as a potential, but this also takes years of dedication to cultivate. I believe our default is to rationalize, not be rational. It is difficult to break yourself of this and approach discussions with rationality.

To become a master of these four traits, you must be tested. And if you are tested, you will fail many times. There might be people who laugh at you when you fall. That want you to stay down. That hate you for walking it. You may get help from others, but in the end, you must make the decision to follow such a path yourself.

Another angle to the issue of wisdom, given that we define it as both good and true, how do we attain it? — TheMadFool

By keeping a curious mind, an honest heart, an ear to other opinions, and a rational viewpoint.

"What is the answer to all possible questions?" There ya go. You answer that, there is no need for any other question.

If we make the assumption that all possible versions of you are going to play out in the infinite multiverse, there are still a few things to consider.

1. The body actually has a limited lifespan. Thus there will be an end eventually to your existence in the "last" universe when there is no other option than your death.

2. "You" are not the other "You"s. There is only one of "You" that will get the lucky path of experiencing the entirety of your life. That you will not know the experiences of those that die. Thus we can also conclude that those that die, will not know the experiences of those that live.

You might be interested in my post: https://thephilosophyforum.com/discussion/8924/a-fun-puzzle-for-the-forums-the-probability-of-god

You won't need the later part, just the first 6 points or so. It explores the idea of a first cause, and what that would logically entail. If it is necessarily the case that the origin of our universe was a first cause (this does not require a God) then there is an interesting idea in comparing all possible first causes with the idea of there never having been a first cause, or nothing.

From that viewpoint, it would seem infinite to one that here would exist something, if you are looking at all possibilities as logically being just as likely to occur as another. I do not wish to derail your thread, so if you're curious, peek in there. If not, no harm, no foul.

It is not ethical for the workers to add more suffering to the animals than necessary. But that should be managed by the business. Incidents of particular employees acting unethically does not paint all people in the organization as wrong or unethical. Typically bringing these things to light puts pressure on business owners to fix their image.

As for funding these businesses, that may depend on people's pocket books. Buying non-factory farmed is VERY expensive. I buy eggs that are supposedly chicken friendly with some free range time, adequate space, and good feed. I pay nearly double what I would for basic eggs. Fortunately, I can afford it. Earlier in my life or if I had not gained a better career? I would not have been able to.

And regardless of my misgivings of undue suffering, I need to eat at the end of the day. Boycotting your food because you don't like how it was treated can be a hard thing if the alternative providers are twice as expensive.

From that point of view, it is the most unavoidable activity. I am the witness to myself that nobody else is. So, how does that work as a limit to anything else? — Valentinus

Descartes idea was to then build from that starting point. If he could find a starting point that was irrefutable, then he could use that to build his philosophy.

Descartes actually considers this. Its sometimes called "The Evil Demon" argument. Basically he questions whether everything he observers is falsified and put in front of him by an evil demon.

For your radio analogy, Descartes did consider that something else was streaming things to him. But he had to be able to process it. The "I" is the radio doing the processing.

Now if you're stating that the processing is also streamed, that the I is simply created elsewhere and streamed in to some processor, Descartes would still state the part that is thinking that it is a self, is the self. The "radio" receiving the processing would not be the self. Does that make sense?

In fact, any event can be explained by an infinite variety of mundane causes, and an infinite variety of supernatural ones. And if your criteria is not mundane vs. supernatural but literally anything (i.e blue Ys vs any other colored Ys), you still get infinity on either side. Using this method, the probability is always 50%. Therefore, this method has zero predictive power, and discloses zero information about the world.

The real flaw is, this is not how probabilities are calculated. You don't just enumerate the possibilities and count them, you need to assign weights to them. Merely enumerating possibilities tells you exactly nothing. — hypericin

Fantastic. You understand the flaw exactly. Well done! Because we are looking at the case of possibilities, and logically cannot assign any weight to one or another, the only thing we can do is enumerate possibilities, and come to the conclusion of infinity on either side.

I think you are not including all that is needed for this to make sense.

13. A' = {x, y, N} should be written as A' = {v', w', N} because the negation of A, is the negation of v and w, with the inclusion of N. Point 14 would need the same adjustment. The negation of A does not mean the inclusion of B in logic. To do this, you would need to include steps that include the universal set as well in your equation, which you do not.

The compliment to A' would then be retranslated as A = {v, w, N'}. Same with B.

So with the adjustements of 13 and 14, that leaves 15 still correct, that the negation of both A and B includes N.

But, if you are unifying A and B, then you would get {v, w, x, y, N' }

If you negate both A and B, this translates to
{v, w, x, y, N'}' = {v', w', x', y', N} without any paradox to my mind.

I believe we are talking past each other at this point Tim Wood. You seem to be addressing things that are irrelevant to the puzzle at hand. The first part of the puzzle is me stating, "Either everything has a prior cause, or there are things that do not have a prior cause," and assessing the logical conclusion of what would result if a thing did not have a prior cause.

My point was that if you do not believe there is causality, then you should be at least examining my logical claims of what it would be like for something to not have causality. The point I was making is that doing away with causality, does not negate the points I make when I state that is something that is uncaused. Do you agree or disagree with the logic that I have put forward about an uncaused thing?

I do not ask to convince you. I can tell you are not interested in such things. You also seem highly reluctant because I believe you think this is some theist trap to get you to agree there is a God. It is not. I want to see if I can poke a hole in my own argument. The joy of philosophy for me is not poking holes into other's arguments, but my own at this point.

So please if you will. You may carry on with whatever you believe. I do not care. But please try to address the points I am making and poke holes in them. The main point I am very interested in seeing a challenge to, is my claimed logical consequences of a thing that has no cause for its being besides the fact of its own existence. If you are not addressing that, you really aren't addressing the point of the argument.

Quantum mechanics shows that events at the sub-atomic level are random and "un-caused". These "un-caused" events behave in a statistically predictable pattern, but each event has no prior "cause". — EricH

Interesting. I would think the more correct claim is, "We cannot currently find an underlying cause, therefore, there may not be any." Which is perfectly fine.

At best, the notion that everything has a "prior cause" is a hypothesis that needs to be proven. — EricH

But not for my purposes here. The point that I put forth is that everything has a prior cause, or there are things that do not have a prior cause. I then examine the logic of what it would be like for something to not have a prior cause.

But even if you take issue with the notion of causality, it would seem you must agree with me that there is the potential of something that can exist without causality.
— Philosophim
Um, no. Aristotle somewhere makes the point that with either-or is also neither-nor. Recognizing that cause-and-effect is my invention (so to speak), mighty useful and dependable, I still ought to remember it's mine and not the world's itself. — tim wood

To clarify what I meant, if you do not believe that cause and effect is real, then you believe there can exist things that are uncaused. The only options to us are that causality exists, or causality does not exist right? Its either true, or false unless you believe there is something in between. If there is something in between, what do you suppose it is? Or is it an assertion that we are ignorant to it, and can never figure it out.

If causality as a model fits the world, then causality is something within the world. You do not believe that causality as a model fits the world, which is fine. But if that is the case, then by necessity, that means that the world exists without causality, and thus we can examine what a world would necessarily be if causality does not fit the world. If this thinking is wrong, can you explain why you think it is?

Everything so many yards, feet, and inches, while at the same time nothing is. — tim wood

While this is poetic, I do not believe this conveys a logical breakdown. Everything that has length can be measured in yards, feet and inches. We do not have to use the man made measurements of yard, feet, and inches, but if we do, they are very real measurements that give us logical conclusions about reality that can give accurate predictions and results. Measurement is an invention of humanity, but its application to reality is concurrent with, and not contradicted by reality either. Thus it is within the world, and not merely an imaginary whim of humanity.

Otherwise are we to say that measuring in yards, feet, and inches is wrong, and does not accurately reflect reality? If so, then there are questions and consequences with this. If you do not believe that causality reflects reality, then there are of course questions, and at least one consequence that there must be reality that exists without causality. I look forward to hearing your take!

To Tim's list I would also add

d. Things can exist without a prior cause — EricH

Hello EricH, thanks for contributing! Quantum fluctuations alone do not presuppose or prove an existence without a prior cause. Would you like to point out why you think we do?

You pre-suppose cause. I don't. Make me. That is, I do not grant #1 — tim wood

Ha ha! I can't make anyone agree to anything. But we can discuss and you can come to your own conclusions. Now that we're on the same page, let me address an earlier point you made.

The view I invite you to share is of something like William James's "blooming, buzzing confusion" - the world as. In such a view cause is manifestly one of many different kinds of templates we in our reason overlay the world with, to create our own sense of it - which makes it not any part of the world primordially. Perhaps most critically expressed, cause is a necessary part of a model, but not part of reality. Whatever depends on cause, then, is in at least that respect, not in reality. — tim wood

Here we are entering into Epistemology, and perhaps more specifically, how language represents the world. While this could explode into its own topic, I'm going to try to focus it for our purposes. In short, people can invent any language, words, or concepts they want. These can apply to reality, or they can be what we call "imaginary". Words and concepts that apply to reality and are not contradicted by reality, are considered viable concepts that apply to reality. This is science in a nutshell. While it is impossible to prove that the conceptual overlay is 100% absolutely true, it is the only reasonable conclusion as to what is true that can be drawn from the information at hand.

I have explained causality as essentially a state model of existential history. To break it down into its simple claims: There is history. We can evaluate and divide that history through our concepts of time. We are able to evaluate existence before a point in history, and at a point in history. Causality is the notion that a historical prior point leads to another later point on the timeline. From this we normally construct rules and reasons in the hopes such similar events are able to occur again, and thus we gain a greater control over nature. Physics for example. Without an understanding of physics, we would not be able to type the words on this electronic format that is zipped over elections on the internet.

But let us go even simpler. Causality is the idea that there must be a prior state that causes a current state to be. And that if that prior state did not occur, then the current state of a thing could not be. But perhaps it IS possible that a current state of a thing, does not require the existence of a prior state. Like you say, perhaps causality is not fundamentally necessary. In this case, I use the language, "First cause". Of course, I am assuming that this first cause will cause other things to happen. But what is interesting, is even if I remove the idea that this "first cause" will cause other things to occur, there is still the notion of something "uncaused".

So Tim Wood, I actually agree with you that causality is not fundamentally necessary in existence. Of course, I do not deny that causality also exists, as I see it as something that cannot be disproven. But even if you take issue with the notion of causality, it would seem you must agree with me that there is the potential of something that can exist without causality. And if that is the case, then you agree with my claim that an "uncaused" thing can exist. And if an "uncaused" thing can exist, then we can think about what would logically result from this.

And so point 4 remains unchallenged. If it is the case that there is no causality, no fundamental requirement that something exist prior to a current historical state, then there is no reason why a current state should exist in the way it does, besides the fact of its present existence. Are you in agreement so far, or are there issues you would like to address at this point?

Yours is a theology. — tim wood

Tim wood, I am not a theologist. Have you read the OP? I get the feeling you are coming to this thread with assumptions and letting it color your outlook. I say this because you do not seem to be addressing the points made. This is why I am reluctant to repost things already written in the OP. It seems you are taking point 4 out of context, when it was intended as a reminder within the context of the argument. Please read points 1 through 6 and point out where the flaw is in the points themselves, otherwise I feel we will both be on different ideas, and inadvertently be discussing straw men.

No, emotions are not all that matters, or make life worth living. When you are a child, emotions are the only way you assess the world. But as you grow older, you start to find rational links that many times defy your emotions. You learn to make decisions despite your emotions when you can clearly tell it is a better idea.

How do I know this? Well, I have suffered from depression for much of my life. Not "sadness", but there are times when I feel...nothing. I gain no pleasure from activities I normally enjoy. I feel no empathy or care for anything in the world. So how do I function? By rational choice. Sure, I may not feel like I enjoy my work that day, but I do it because I know I need my employer to see I am stable so that I can make money. Yes, I could sit on my couch and zone out for hours without a care in the world. But I rationally know that's not good. So I get up and I do "something".

When your life is run by emotions, then you are a slave to them. You are an animal that merely exists for the chemical whims of your pleasure and pain centers of the brain. But you can be more than that as a human being. You can think long term. You can make actions despite your body feeling nothing, or even screaming not to do it. When you feel nothing, you have to come to a conclusion on your own why your life is worth living. I have. It is worth living, simply to be. Even if one day I lost all emotion, and it never came back, I would still choose to live. I would still choose morals, and try to live a good path. Not because of feelings, but because I know what is right, and that my life is worth living.

Let's try this way. Let's assume you have as claimed logically proven the universe must have had a first cause. Right away the "logical" leaps out: why exactly is it there? — tim wood

Certainly. If you have not read the original OP, it will be necessary at this point. I don't want to re-paste the whole thing. =)

4. The logic of a first cause entails that there is no rule on how that first cause has to exist. In other words, you cannot claim "Its not possible for X to exist." To say there existed such a rule would entail "X exists because of Y". But there is no Y when X is a first cause. This can mean a first cause could be anything without limitation. X as a prime cause does not follow any rules besides the fact of its own existence. — Philosophim

But more simply, given it's logically proven, how do you get from there to any assertion that it applies to the universe? — tim wood

It is easiest to re-read points 1-6 again.

The relevance of relativity is not towards the relativity of duration, but towards the relativity of simultaneity. — SophistiCat

Yes, this is what I explained. But the fact of having relative observers does not negate that fact that you can assess time by one observer. Again, I can analyze all of time by Earth time if I wish. I just have to translate it into different observers time if that is important in my analysis. When examining the universe from now to its "beginning", we can easily set the relative time to Earth time, and evaluate the complete universe using that alone. Again, if the relative view point changes, we just math it up to continue to be in Earth time. So again, the state assessment I've noted fits in fine with relativity.

Great! if we are in agreement on this point, then what do you think about my conclusion using the premises of the OP, that it is logically necessary that the universe's origin must have a first cause?
— Philosophim

Some other time perhaps. — SophistiCat

Well, that's ultimately the point of the puzzle. If you don't want to engage anymore, no worry.

Do you believe this to be an assessment of reality? — Philosophim

Is reason proven to be binding on all of reality? We can't even define what we mean by "all of reality". One universe, a trillion universes? We have no idea. — Hippyhead

Cool. So you believe this is reality. How did you conclude this?

Yes, we can. They key is their spatial occupation. Both of the balls are defined as individuals relative to the other by position. "This ball is not that ball over there". The only time we cannot create an identity between two balls is if we say the two balls occupy the exact same physical space as well. At that point, we could not identify a "second ball", and we would identify only one ball.

Now, can we make an identity of the balls like, "That is ball 1, and that is ball 2"? That requires a human in this case, as this would be in relation to our viewpoint and preference as to which ball was which. We could say, "Ball 1 is the ball to my left, and ball 2 is the ball to my right". If we watched and the balls shifted position, we could continue to identify them. Of course, as location and our ability to identify them by their location in relation to us is the only way we could identify them specifically, we would have to constantly track them to be consistent in our identity. If we looked away and the balls moved, we would have no way of knowing which one was our original ball 1 and 2 at that point.

Here we are again. The requirement for evidence is a rule of reason, a system of thought invented by a single semi-suicidal species only recently living in caves on one little planet in one of billions of galaxies. Reason is not a god proven to have binding authority over all of reality, but instead a tool proven to be useful in a limited context. — Hippyhead

Do you believe this to be an assessment of reality?

You would have to assume an absolute time for that, that is, something like a Newtonian universe. In a relativistic universe there is no fact of the matter about how the space-time is to be sliced along the time dimension (the technical term for this is foliation). — SophistiCat

I think you misunderstand. I was using a Newtonian model as the relativistic state. A "second" is an agreed upon unit of existent change. We can apply a "second" in any relativistic model, by taking an outside relativistic stance. For example, a second in Earth time is the same as a second within a black hole, but only differs in comparison to the other. We can invent a third timeframe in which we compare the two time frames and state, this is a second when evaluating the time that passes in comparing the two. This is why we can say a second in Black hole time would be 500 years of Earth time. In comparing the two, we can create a consistent model. Time can be put into units in either case, from an outside perspective.

In other words, the use of the word "second" is simply to convey, "Unit of time that a person wishes to place on the situation". The specifics of that second, whether it is black hole time or Earth time, are irrelevant. If one creates a time frame of a universe's existence, how the parse that up is fine as long as it is consistent. Thus we can take the frame of an entire universes causality, and create a model of division of time within that frame.

I only mention this, as relativity does not negate what I am saying about states. In fact, relativity is essential to my claim about states. Make the unit of time within whatever relative time frame you want. That doesn't negate the point. Regardless, lets not over complicate the issue and make this about relativity.

You are conflating reasons with causes — SophistiCat

Reasons are explanations as to why things happen a certain way. Reasons are determined by causes, causes do not come from reasons. We understand the reason why water freezes, after observing the cause of water freezing. A cause is the reason played out in history. The reason water freezes is the heat of the water molecules reach 0 degress celcius. If water than freezes, the cause is the actual fact of the water's temperature becoming 0 degrees celcius. A cause is an actualized reason, but a reason does not specify any particular cause. But a reason and a cause are tied together. One way to think of reason and cause, is like the abstract of a house cat, versus an actual house cat named Cloey.

Thus:

If there is no prior state, then there is no reason for the first state that is, to have existed. For the reason of a current state, is explained by the actual prior state. All we can say as to why a first state existed, is that it did. — Philosophim

Without any causality, or history of a things existence, then the reason for a things existence cannot be formed on a non-existent history. The reason for a causeless thing, is only the evidence of its existence, and nothing prior.

To the extent that this makes any sense, this was a very convoluted path to an uncontroversial conclusion: in a causal model with an initial state, the initial state is the cause of all subsequent states, and there is no cause for the initial state. — SophistiCat

Great! if we are in agreement on this point, then what do you think about my conclusion using the premises of the OP, that it is logically necessary that the universe's origin must have a first cause?

The "problem" then - quotes because it really isn't a problem - is to find "cause" primordially. And at best I can't. — tim wood

Not a problem. This puzzle however is within the causality model of reality. Knowing if causality is a truth of existence, or merely the posit of a human model, is a question of epistemology. That is too deep to go into here. So, I do understand where you are coming from, but to discuss the puzzle, one must at least entertain the idea that causality is a truth of reality that would exist even if human brains did not exist. No offense taken if this is something you are not willing to entertain.

Yes, some people hide behind specialized language and wordiness to appear like they know what they are talking about. But to also be fair, sometimes a person is working through the idea, and have not reached the mastery level of being able to convey an idea that is simple, clear, and concise. And then there are the instances in which a person is so learned in a particular specialized topic, that for those who understand the topic, the use of those words conveys the idea that is simple, clear, and concise.

Do not be intimidated by unfamiliar words or phrasing. Feel free to ask people to detail confusing or unclear parts of their post. An honest person who is genuinely interested in discussion and conveying their idea to you, will gladly attempt to do so. Someone who becomes offended or resists, is likely a pretender and not worth your time.

Why would someone need to demonstrate anything about reality if they are making a baseless claim? — ToothyMaw

The reason why it is a baseless claim is because it has no base in reality. You can always ask a person, theist or not, to back their claim about reality, with reality.

we were not disputing whether or not religious people's claims actually represent physical reality; what is relevant is that they aim to represent reality and fail to do so due to problems inherent to the language used, which is, once again, where Wittgenstein comes in. — ToothyMaw

The problem of the language, is that the language is making a claim about reality, without evidence to reality. I am specifying what the specific problem of the language being used is: It intends to convey reality without any evidence of it. I don't believe we are in disagreement here.

Microbes, atoms, quantum waves and distant galaxies didn't exist because we couldn't show them to be actual and necessary. — Hippyhead

Until we could show these things existed, we did not know they existed. A person could get lucky and imagine something that is true in reality. But to show that it is true in reality, there must be a demonstration of it. As of now, we know these things to be real with evidence.

However I do think the answer to the “hard problem” proper is trivial, and all the actual hard work is in answering the “easy problem”. And that the substantive question of why we have the specific kind of first-person experience that we have, rather than the trivial question of why we have any first-person experience at all, is bound up in the “easy problem” as well, because experience and behavior are inseparably linked. — Pfhorrest

Just had to agree with Pfhorrest on this one.

Here is the thing about language. We can invent whatever terms and ideas we want. But if we are going to claim these terms represent reality, we must show their actual or necessary existence in reality. There is nothing outside of space and time, because we cannot show it to be actual or necessary. Therefore a "transcendental being" is imaginary language, not language that describes reality.

So unfortunately, theists who describe God this way are describing an imaginary God, not a real God.

Tim Wood, thanks again for a good analysis. It makes me happy to see people seriously thinking about the issue. Your main issue is with the idea of cause, and first cause. Fantastic. I have not had a good discussion on this. SophistiCat, I hope my analysis below will always clarify what I mean, so feel free to contribute your own thoughts on this.

Let us think of slices of time as "states". At its most simple, we would have a snapshot. But we could also have states that are seconds, hours, days, years, etc. We determine the scale. Within a state, we analyze the existence that has occurred. Causality is the actual prior state, not potential prior state, that existed which actually lead to the current state we are evaluating.

If a state is of a larger scale than a snapshot, then we can subdivide this state. So let us say that I have a state that is two seconds long. I subdivide it into seconds. The first second is the cause of the second. It is not that the second "second" could have have existed without the full first second of time. We might state that in reality, only the last millisecond of existence within the first second, was needed to get the second second of existence. We then might say there were potential states of existence prior to that millisecond, that could have lead to that millisecond, that then lead to that second second.

But in the end, potential is not actual. The actual is what actually happened prior to that millisecond. Despite our idea that we only needed the last millisecond of the first second to have the existence of the second second come into being, the full actual chain of causality in milliseconds is the full first second.

So then what is a first cause? A first cause is when we reach on our scaled state, a state which has no actual prior state. If our scale is in seconds, there is no prior second. If a snapshot, there is no prior snapshot. We can imagine there are prior states. We can float possibilities. But as an actual existence, there is no prior state.

If there is no prior state, then there is no reason for the first state that is, to have existed. For the reason of a current state, is explained by the actual prior state. All we can say as to why a first state existed, is that it did.

So what I do here in determining the logical necessity of a first cause, is examine the entire state of the universe. We know what a finite state universe looks like now, but what about an infinitely regressive stated universe? At this point we are not positing actuals, but potentials. We are trying to see if a first cause is a potential, a contradiction, or a necessity.

When examining the potential of an infinitely regressive universe, if we subdivide it into its finite parts, there of course is no end. Just like I can divide seconds into milliseconds and so on, so can we divide the infinite into whatever scale we want. But we can also do the reverse. Just like I can make a snapshot as the state, I can make the state the sum total of the time of the universe's existence. I can look at the two second universe in the scale of "A universe", That is universe A. I can look at the infinitely regressive state universe and make the scale of "A universe", and call it universe B.

Once this is done I can ask a question. Is there an actual prior state that happened which caused universe A? No. So there is no causality for its existence. I ask the same question about universe B. Is there an actual prior state that happened which caused universe B? No. So there is no causality for its existence. The only thing I can logically conclude from the above premises, is that there is no cause for the existence of any potential universe. Whatever universe exists, exists without prior explanation.

Lets examine this thought process before I move on. Does this clarify my position? Any holes, any questions? It is nice to dive deep like this.