You are quite right to speak of how a sense of'' I' is central to experiences, including the good and bad moments, because the ego consciousness is a central agent in interpretation of the events in life and, for human beings, it is the meaning of these which are essential, especially in the ongoing process of autobiographical narratives and the sense of one 's own 'story'.

It may come down to how we define ourselves, which may have profound implications for who or what we may become, metaphysically, and as social beings.

Yes, I can even see myself as a set of particles and how the ''I' may fragment at times. I am not entirely sure how beneficial the 'I' consciousness is, although most people don't wish to have a 'jelly' self. Perhaps, the ability to see and think about varying constructs of ego consciousness and self may be most helpful, although it may be that identity has a certain amount of 'fragility' and can easily be torn asunder.

Personal identity may be interconnected with a sense of meaning in life and even though my thread is called 'Who am 'I' is with reference to the concept of 'I', this thread topic may go back to a youth club event which I went to as an adolescent, titled 'Who am I?' However, this was not about particles but about finding oneself in the social world.

I think that our posts may have been written at the same time. In relation to your latter post, one question which I wonder about is inner and outer aspects of the self, and how the 'I' is often about the meaning on an internal level, although it may be that splitting between the inner and the outer may be unhelpful and, it may be one of the problems going back to Descartes. The division between inner and outer may be real in some ways, but, in other respects it may be illusory and the sense of the 'I' may be important in dealing with the paradoxes of inner and outer aspects of human experience.

I wonder what would happen if it was concluded that 'I' is a complete illusion and whether as a matter of language it would even be possible to go beyond the possibility of the construct of 'I'. Would it help, or be meaningless in relation to how a person conceives identity in relation to the world and others?

I think that you have raised such an important question and some may believe that 'enlightenment' is possible and others may remain sceptical of the idea completely. Personally, I am inclined to think that it may be possible to enter into peak experiences of consciousness, but such states of numinosity may not be the exclusive right of any particular 'religion' and, there may also be a danger of people who believe that they are 'the enlightened' seeing this as some form of achievement of 'superiority'.

This may throw a question mark on any who claim to have experienced 'enlightenment.' I am partly thinking of Krishnamurti, who was believed to be a future spiritual leader, and he had to step back from this and look at the nature of such a quest, rather than being drawn into the inflated ego consciousness of spirituality. There may have been so many who stepped into a sense of knowing, and as you say, Jung recognizes the way in which it may be a journey through darkness into light, with many perils along the way, and I believe that one writer, Alice Bailey, captures this in the idea of the 'dweller on the threshold'. Enlightenment may not be a simple idea but one with complex questions about knowledge of self and the glamours surrounding this, as well as the whole nature of responsibility connected to power of knowledge. However, many may even question the idea of 'enlightenment' in itself.

It is hard to know where metaphors end and the literal exists, especially in terms of the self and the fictions about this construct. In many ways, it may that human beings can fabricate all kinds of meanings behind the self and 'I', even on a narcissistic level, in trying to understand and live with ego consciousness. We could ask what is ego consciousness and, in particular what is 'ego' because that that term in itself has various psychoanalytic meanings ranging from the psychoanalytic to the philosophy of Stirner on ego. That may be where the nature of self becomes so complex and beyond psychology, into the nature of the philosophy of identity.

I think that you are right to emphasise the power of music and how it can make someone do -'anything'. It has a hypnotic quality. I do wonder about the subliminal levels of music. Of course, this could go too far with the attempt to remove all 'negativity'. However, even though I like the music of Nirvana, my intuition is that it would probably not be a good idea to listen to that music all day. Even though I love the Doors, I do try to balance out what I listen to because music probably affects us so deeply, and getting the right balance may be essential. Sometimes, I just spend so much time thinking what music to listen to.

You are probably right to interpret the 'strange loop' as being based on metaphor, but, in a way all thinking and construction of models is based on words and images.

The idea of the 'fictional self' may be so essential to human identity because the it is bound up with the autobiographical development of the 'I', which probably filters out a lot of information and chooses which memories to hold on to. The 'I' is likely to come with essential biases, which may be connected with its own preservation and importance.

Hofstadter's idea of the 'strange loop' as a means of self reference in consciousness is fascinating. So, thanks for sharing that as part of the nature of how consciousness of the 'I' comes into being for human beings.

So, do you think that the continuity of memories, often formulated as 'identity', is illusory? Surely, this would almost be supportive of the idea that consciousness is an illusion. That is because 'I' and consciousness may even be identical with I being a way of reference to the stream of consciousness itself.

In that sense, it may be an emergent state of a way of organising consciousness. However, in some ways, it seems odd that each of us a sense of oneness within rather scattered aspects. Of course, in states of dissociation people lose their cohesive identity but, in most cases, each of us develops a coherent autobiographical 'I'. Only in unusual circumstances, this may fragment in some ways.

Definitely the sense of 'I' is partly learned within social environments. The whole distinction between the child and mother is recognised by psychologists as being central to ego integrity in development. 'I' and 'me' may be a bit different philosophically and psychologically because me may be as a point of reference while I is the starting point of subjectivity and sense of one 's own consciousness.

I am not sure to what extent the idea of 'I' relates to self, ego consciousness, and it is likely that these constructs have changed so much in accordance with understanding of human beings. It is so bound up with the nature of identity, of connection to others and as cohesive sense of identity between past, present and future. As far as I know, most people retain the sense of being an 'I' in dreams too.

Yes, the relationship between the construct of the self and the 'I' is not straightforward. It does seem to be an aspect of awareness arising in brain consciousness, but the 'I' is not simply the brain. The concept of I is probably used in different ways but the elusive sense of I is likely to have given rise to the idea of 'the ghost in the machine'.

Humour is extremely important in life and without it everything can become so heavy and dull, especially with all the big philosophy questions. I know that on a daily basis I have to be careful not to lose humour. Perhaps, laughing at at absurdities is possible and, it may be preferable to be able to laugh at oneself rather than others, to avoid causing offence. Maybe, life is a complex mixture of tragedy and comedy.

You are probably right that it is more in popular genres that people are inclined to stop exploring music after teenage or student years. Even though I am into rock and alternative music, I do like to continue to find new music and I will probably always continue to do so. That is because I read reviews in music magazines.

Of course, one other aspect which does affect the whole industry is streamlining as opposed to people buying records and CDs. I still buy CDs and find them to be the most durable form of music. Some people think that records sound better but this may just be because some CD players have such poor speakers and having decent ones is important. I even know of some people who collect vinyl who don't have a record player. But, what may get missed with online music is the culture and subculture surrounding music, but this does have an industry component.

I am sure that people who have more classical or jazz tastes find specific venues to share their interests. There are specialist stores for all genres and I love going to a punk music shop in Camden Town.

It must be great to perform in bands and I do know some people who do. Do you sing as well?

I read a book on logic recently, called'The Art of Logic: How to Make Sense in a World That Doesn't,' by Eugenia Cheng(2019). The author shows how logic, including the basics of maths, is a foundation 'to verify and establish the truth'. However, the following statement may be applicable to this thread discussion on music in relation to emotions:
'Emotions and logic do not have to be enemies. Logic works perfectly in the abstract mathematical world. But life is more complicated than that. Life involves humans, and humans have emotions'.

So, music helps soothe emotions and can be cathartic. I often find some really dark music can be cathartic and uplifting, although I do like 'The Logical Song', by Supertramp

It is probably true that there are more musicians who are not good at maths than those who are. I agree that music can be so experimental, 'like painting in tones'. I have often thought that 12 inches singles seem to give more scope than 7 inch ones, especially the ones on ZZT label, which include 'The Art of Noise' and ' Orbital. I also came across a CD by 'The Flaming Lips' which came with 4 identical discs. The idea was to play all 4 at the same time. I was able to play 2 at once and I think it did make the experience rather different from just listening on one player.

The relationship between dance and music or between music and prayer is an important aspect of music. I actually meditate to dance music, and when I tell some people this they often look puzzled, so I tell them I am dancing inside my head. I went through a phase of meditation to metal music but that is another story.

It is interesting that your partner and you appear to listen to certain music differently. I often wonder to some extent each of us hears music a little differently. One reason why I wonder about this I sometimes feel that certain music has sounded different if I am ill with a fever, or in an unusual state of mind.

It does often seem that those who are good at maths are also good musicians too and I have often wondered about why that relationship exists. Perhaps, the symbolic aspects of both involve the same aspects of the brain, including the reading of music.

I am not saying that logic and rationality aren't important because they are essential, but it does not mean that anything beyond that is 'incomprehensible nonsense to our minds. The various functions include sensations, rationality, emotions and imagination or intuition. Music appeals to parts of us that are not just logical but are important, especially the realm of emotions. Some people like very emotional music, like romance or possibly sad aspects of love.

I think that the way music and memories goes deep. In particular, I was once running music appreciation groups in ana mental health ward for older adults and I discovered how through listening to music from the past, so much could be touched upon or triggered through listening to songs from the past.. Music and memories may be so interrelated.

You have told me that something which I have said is 'silly' but I need you to specify what, before I can think about it.

I also wonder about the nature of the power of dance music as a way of uplifting the spirit and emotions. I do have a lot of dance; trance etc and don't dance to it, but use it for meditation, because it seems to encapsulate higher states of consciousness or awareness. I don't know if this is my perception or whether others see it that way, sort of like the opposite to Slipknot, although I think that ' When All Hope is Gone' is a fantastic album. One way of bringing the darkness of metal and the vibrancy of dance together in an innovative way is crossover genres, such as explored by Pendulum and Skrillex.

I suppose what I mean by rationality in this context is how I would usually justify music taste, such as how I would argue that the music and lyrics in ' The Joshua Tree' album make it stand out, and this is on a conceptual basis. With the music of Pharrell Williams, which was so commercial, it seemed to be a bit different, but I do think he is a great artist and it may be about emotions and touching on higher states of consciousness in that way. In many ways, his music is 'pop's but it seems to be about reaching 'for the stars' as the lyrics say in The Daft Punk track, and the song seems to be able to access that particular state of consciousness.

It is hard to even know why some music makes sense to us and some doesn't. A friend bought me a classical compilation a few years ago, with a hope that it would enable me to access that kind of music. There is so much which goes beyond rationality with music taste and what makes sense to each of us. I remember a summer a few years ago when I was so into Daft Punk's ' Get Lucky', and the song featuring Pharrell Williams, 'Blurred Lines' and it so much seems to go beyond logic. Music seems to go beyond rationality, to a different space within human consciousness and emotions.

My own basic intuition is that music may open up the imagination, to so much more possible ways of thinking and perceiving reality. Obviously, it is important that it be grounded in reality. Sound may encompass this whole spectrum, in its ability to transform experience and guide imagination.

Vibrations may be important in music, as suggested in the The Beach Boys' song, 'Good Vibrations', and I hardly dare think what the bad vibrations are.... However, I think that I am probably familiar with them. I don't like to label or be opposed to any kind of music, I do wonder if some music is best avoided in some circumstances. It may be about tuning into the minds of people who made the music

I am very far from being some kind of moral absolutist, but I do have questions about what music may be helpful ot not. However, it so complex and I have my days in which I think that Nirvana were so wonderful. So, it may not about how far Jim Morrison and Kurt Cobain can take us, and at what point is enough, in certain directions of experience and thinking. Also, life circumstances come into play, and how music is interpreted.

I wonder how much musical taste is nature or nurture. So far, in this thread I may have pointed to what is listened to in music in early childhood as being extremely important. However, as sound and meaning are so embedded in physical nature it may be that a biological aspect is important and it may that music has a biological component within human nature.

I wonder what the worst possible sound can be. The worst, from my point of view, is jarring sounds in the night, which prevent sleeping. But, some people may even be afraid of silence itself. Even though I love music of such varied nature, I think that silence can be so wonderful, as opposed to the most interfering and disruptive aspects of noise. Electric drills and vacuum cleaners may be the worst forms of 'music'. I also wonder about aspects of music in the outer world and in the imagination, including the idea of the 'third ear'.

I am inclined to wonder how much words and music are interrelated on some level, especially in poetry. Many of those who wrote have combined the two, such as Leonard Cohen. Language and singing are both important of human utterances and what is heard. Even reading words aloud may be such a different experience of the sound of the human voice.

Sound may have such power at a subliminal level. I have even come across the idea that sound can kill. Hopefully, it does not go that far, but I stopped going to metal and punk live events because I did begin to think that it was affecting my hearing, and I think that I do have some difficulty hearing higher pitch sounds.

I read more about Schopenhauer's ideas recently and I am trying to get hold of his writings. Personally, I do link Nietzsche's ideas with those of Jim Morrison and the Doors, but I am not sure that the logic of this is entirely correct. It may be my own connection, although I know that Jim was inspired by Nietzsche and this is so evident in Jim's lyrics, especially in 'An American Prayer' poetry/ album.

Yes, it is a big topic and I am sure that you appreciate this as I know that you find music to be such an important aspect of life. I just know that music has such profound importance on my mental state, so when I came across the book I thought it was worth raising as an aspect of philosophy and it will be interesting to see what it raises here. I think that some people may consider music as an aspect of qualia, but I think that it is also an important aspect of phenomenology.

The Eastern and Western approaches are interesting and may have implications for how music is understood or appreciated. But, even in our culture I wonder about binaries and divisions. It may be that music is understood and appreciated differently from the right and left hemispheres, and within cultures this is balanced so differently and it may impact on music appreciation.

Actually, I have only ever smoked when 'dope ' has been part of the mixture rather than just tobacco. But, coming back to music, I do wonder about wider aspects of inter subjectivity, such as I felt the music of Jim Morrison to be bound up with the philosophy of Nietzsche.

I guess that I am really asking about the nature of metaphysical realities which may be underlying our appreciation of music. That is probably the aspect of this which makes it an aspect of philosophy, especially the relationship between subjective experience of sound and music, or anything which may be objective beyond this.

In many ways, I agree that so much of thinking is built around metaphors and the whole symbolic levels of reality. However, when I was reading the book I referred to , I was wondering about the possibility of objective realities lying behind the arts and music. This may be about archetypal aspects of existence or sounds, but I am left wondering about the whole spectrum of objectivity and subjectivity, and it does seem that the physical world is such an important aspect of this , including shared meanings and experiences of sound and music.