I am not saying that logic and rationality aren't important because they are essential, but it does not mean that anything beyond that is 'incomprehensible nonsense to our minds. The various functions include sensations, rationality, emotions and imagination or intuition. Music appeals to parts of us that are not just logical but are important, especially the realm of emotions. Some people like very emotional music, like romance or possibly sad aspects of love.

I think that the way music and memories goes deep. In particular, I was once running music appreciation groups in ana mental health ward for older adults and I discovered how through listening to music from the past, so much could be touched upon or triggered through listening to songs from the past.. Music and memories may be so interrelated.

You have told me that something which I have said is 'silly' but I need you to specify what, before I can think about it.

I also wonder about the nature of the power of dance music as a way of uplifting the spirit and emotions. I do have a lot of dance; trance etc and don't dance to it, but use it for meditation, because it seems to encapsulate higher states of consciousness or awareness. I don't know if this is my perception or whether others see it that way, sort of like the opposite to Slipknot, although I think that ' When All Hope is Gone' is a fantastic album. One way of bringing the darkness of metal and the vibrancy of dance together in an innovative way is crossover genres, such as explored by Pendulum and Skrillex.

I suppose what I mean by rationality in this context is how I would usually justify music taste, such as how I would argue that the music and lyrics in ' The Joshua Tree' album make it stand out, and this is on a conceptual basis. With the music of Pharrell Williams, which was so commercial, it seemed to be a bit different, but I do think he is a great artist and it may be about emotions and touching on higher states of consciousness in that way. In many ways, his music is 'pop's but it seems to be about reaching 'for the stars' as the lyrics say in The Daft Punk track, and the song seems to be able to access that particular state of consciousness.

It is hard to even know why some music makes sense to us and some doesn't. A friend bought me a classical compilation a few years ago, with a hope that it would enable me to access that kind of music. There is so much which goes beyond rationality with music taste and what makes sense to each of us. I remember a summer a few years ago when I was so into Daft Punk's ' Get Lucky', and the song featuring Pharrell Williams, 'Blurred Lines' and it so much seems to go beyond logic. Music seems to go beyond rationality, to a different space within human consciousness and emotions.

My own basic intuition is that music may open up the imagination, to so much more possible ways of thinking and perceiving reality. Obviously, it is important that it be grounded in reality. Sound may encompass this whole spectrum, in its ability to transform experience and guide imagination.

Vibrations may be important in music, as suggested in the The Beach Boys' song, 'Good Vibrations', and I hardly dare think what the bad vibrations are.... However, I think that I am probably familiar with them. I don't like to label or be opposed to any kind of music, I do wonder if some music is best avoided in some circumstances. It may be about tuning into the minds of people who made the music

I am very far from being some kind of moral absolutist, but I do have questions about what music may be helpful ot not. However, it so complex and I have my days in which I think that Nirvana were so wonderful. So, it may not about how far Jim Morrison and Kurt Cobain can take us, and at what point is enough, in certain directions of experience and thinking. Also, life circumstances come into play, and how music is interpreted.

I wonder how much musical taste is nature or nurture. So far, in this thread I may have pointed to what is listened to in music in early childhood as being extremely important. However, as sound and meaning are so embedded in physical nature it may be that a biological aspect is important and it may that music has a biological component within human nature.

I wonder what the worst possible sound can be. The worst, from my point of view, is jarring sounds in the night, which prevent sleeping. But, some people may even be afraid of silence itself. Even though I love music of such varied nature, I think that silence can be so wonderful, as opposed to the most interfering and disruptive aspects of noise. Electric drills and vacuum cleaners may be the worst forms of 'music'. I also wonder about aspects of music in the outer world and in the imagination, including the idea of the 'third ear'.

I am inclined to wonder how much words and music are interrelated on some level, especially in poetry. Many of those who wrote have combined the two, such as Leonard Cohen. Language and singing are both important of human utterances and what is heard. Even reading words aloud may be such a different experience of the sound of the human voice.

Sound may have such power at a subliminal level. I have even come across the idea that sound can kill. Hopefully, it does not go that far, but I stopped going to metal and punk live events because I did begin to think that it was affecting my hearing, and I think that I do have some difficulty hearing higher pitch sounds.

I read more about Schopenhauer's ideas recently and I am trying to get hold of his writings. Personally, I do link Nietzsche's ideas with those of Jim Morrison and the Doors, but I am not sure that the logic of this is entirely correct. It may be my own connection, although I know that Jim was inspired by Nietzsche and this is so evident in Jim's lyrics, especially in 'An American Prayer' poetry/ album.

Yes, it is a big topic and I am sure that you appreciate this as I know that you find music to be such an important aspect of life. I just know that music has such profound importance on my mental state, so when I came across the book I thought it was worth raising as an aspect of philosophy and it will be interesting to see what it raises here. I think that some people may consider music as an aspect of qualia, but I think that it is also an important aspect of phenomenology.

The Eastern and Western approaches are interesting and may have implications for how music is understood or appreciated. But, even in our culture I wonder about binaries and divisions. It may be that music is understood and appreciated differently from the right and left hemispheres, and within cultures this is balanced so differently and it may impact on music appreciation.

Actually, I have only ever smoked when 'dope ' has been part of the mixture rather than just tobacco. But, coming back to music, I do wonder about wider aspects of inter subjectivity, such as I felt the music of Jim Morrison to be bound up with the philosophy of Nietzsche.

I guess that I am really asking about the nature of metaphysical realities which may be underlying our appreciation of music. That is probably the aspect of this which makes it an aspect of philosophy, especially the relationship between subjective experience of sound and music, or anything which may be objective beyond this.

In many ways, I agree that so much of thinking is built around metaphors and the whole symbolic levels of reality. However, when I was reading the book I referred to , I was wondering about the possibility of objective realities lying behind the arts and music. This may be about archetypal aspects of existence or sounds, but I am left wondering about the whole spectrum of objectivity and subjectivity, and it does seem that the physical world is such an important aspect of this , including shared meanings and experiences of sound and music.

I just found it to be an interesting story really. I am not saying that much should be read into it. If anything, it may be about conflicts between the unconscious and conscious. For example, I once had a friend who was very political and anti religion. He was sleeping on the floor while I was sitting on bed, writing a college essay. While he was asleep, he said, 'Jesus was a revolutionary. I wondered where that came from and when I told him what he said he was startled.

Of course, I am getting a bit psychoanalytical. But, that is a different language to logical positivism. Actually, I think that, 'Language, Truth and Logic', by Ayer is an extremely helpful book and I do think that most of metaphysics is only speculation ultimately.

I read a recent article in 'Philosophy Now' magazine which said how Ayer had a near death experience in hospital towards the end of life. He saw a 'divine being' and, afterwards, he said that he would have to revise his position on metaphysics. I found the story quite interesting, but, of course, Ayer didn't get the opportunity to write further books.

I sometimes have black hole days and I wonder if psychological black holes are in any way parallel to physical ones. But, in the psychological ones I do find that there is 'something' which seems to come out of them on a positive level. It is as if going into shamanic underworld brings forth some hidden treasures, even though there may be moments which may feel like 'nothingness' along the way.

I am glad that I don't have to do any exams. They really could go either way. I particularly hated multiple choices and preferred essays because it allowed for more fuzzy logic.

That's an interesting point you make about pain and suffering. However, I am not sure to what extent one may become illogical as a result of pain or lack of pleasure. It may go either way with pain having a detrimental effect on thinking or it could go in the opposite direction with it enabling a person to get to a newer and higher level that logic as a person searches in greater depth. This may apply more to emotional pain because it can bring about a challenge to the ego and lead a person to connect more with others' suffering through empathy. What do you think?

I just wish to add that play may be an essential aspect of the creative process, because it involves both imagination and experimentation. It may be too harsh when people lose the ability to play in preference for work and grim aspects of reality. A certain amount of playfulness may be important for human meaning and, even fun, rather than misery and play may be important in the ability to see humour and, prevent seeing life in it most tragic form. Play may be important in philosophy in order to put ideas together creatively and to bring forth ideas in new ways.

Play may be seen as frivolous or as serious because it embraces fantasy. Winnicott spoke of the teddy bear as being an important transitional object in negotiationing symbolic meanings. Having grown up with a mother who loved teddy bears, I understand their significance and my own bear, Russell, who wears dungarees still remains on my bed. I love toys as transitional objects, because they take us into the realm of fantasy. I can also remember as a child pretending to be many different rock stars. As adults, it may be that we cast aside our toys and our fantasies and, perhaps, this is a loss and play can be an important factor throughout life, and not simply in childhood. Drama and the arts may incorporate some aspects of play.

No, I haven't left for good and just finished doing house clearance yesterday...It was such a big job and I had to take about 100 teddy bears to charity shops, taking them on buses. So, I am exhausted and finding it hard to concentrate on philosophy but I hope to be able to do so in the next few days.

Perhaps morality needs a combination of logic and emotion in order for it to be balanced. Logic or rationality is needed to assess the best course of action, juggling possible effects. However, there may also be need for emotional aspects as a motivating factor to aid an approach which involves empathy or compassion too.

I love the song 'Levels' by Avicci, as for me it may involve stepping into further dimensions. Music may be a way of tapping such dimensions and who knows if they are imaginary. Some may have spoken of astral projection, but this is probably not the common language of philosophy. Multiverses and higher dimensions: the question may be to what extent do these exist in the human imagination or as dimensions independently of human consciousness?

I found confession terrible because the things which I felt were my sins were just too complicated to explain in a little confession box, so I was extremely vague. I used to get so nervous before going. I even got nervous going to communion, in case I dropped the communion wafer. My mum and I also had a longstanding joke that wouldn't it be awful to drop the collection plate. I don't know how you ever coped being an altar boy, but you are probably less nervous.

I am not sure what you are questioning exactly. Is it the idea that religious perspectives speak of 'hidden' reality? What I mean is that in many religious viewpoints there is thought to be some kind of 'unseen' dimension, underlying everything. In particular, it could be argued that in many current philosophical discussions about consciousness there is the idea that unconsciousness is an absolute. In contrast, within many religious perspectives this is not the way in which it is seen. There is believed to be some inherent purpose behind manifest reality, such as a divine presence and even the unconsciousness present at death is not seen as complete nothingness.

I agree that the most that can be done is to challenge what is written about God. As the thread discussion suggests, proving or disproving God is 'difficult' and I would go further and say it is impossible. As you suggest, no holy book can give us an explanation of the underlying laws of nature. I also wonder what is meant by 'nothing' because it does not appear to us but, perhaps, there is more to 'nothing' than what it appears because as it cannot be observed it may be hard to know how or in what way to describe it, and, perhaps, it is something rather than nothing.

I was just reading your post from yesterday and I do agree that religious systems often claim authority on the basis of 'hidden truths'. That does make it different from the general approach of philosophy, which is usually about the tools of rationality to enable rational thinking, by mystifying in the form of 'the hidden'.

I still don't see why you seem to support the idea of 'cognitive hygiene'. What about the concept impresses you so greatly? You emphasise the importance of eliminating negative thinking, and I do believe in a positive mindset. Nevertheless, most therapy approaches do not see 'emotional health' as being merely a matter of eliminating the negative, and are a bit deeper. For example, in the cognitive-behavioral model, the emphasis is upon understanding assumptions which impact on individual emotions. This involves challenging faulty judgements and errors in thinking, rather than simply the 'negative'.

This may involve looking at certain negative assumptions, but more with a view to looking at the erroneous rather than simply the negative. For example, if someone was in a relationship this may involve questioning fears that the partner may leave. It would not be necessarily saying that the relationship will not end because it might do. To simply try to eliminate negative possibilities alone doesn't always work because in some ways people can't just try to rule out negative things happening. So, what I am arguing is that interventions may need to go deeper than simply trying to eliminate negativity alone.

Well, I know that you call me 'truthseeker' and, to some extent that is true, but, at other times, I do query such a quest. To a large extent, I do approach philosophy as if it were a 'religion', but I know that it is not. So, I just would like to read as much philosophy and discuss it in the best possible way, and perhaps this may be the most approximate way of finding 'truth'. Looking at issues from many angles may be important rather than being locked into one fixed position because 'truth' may be about seeing beyond personal biases as far as possible.

Is it all a 'wild goose chase'? Is it all a mixture of 'bad philosophy', and running round in circles literally, or on various threads about 'truth', the existence of God etc? There are many threads tackling the same issues, and they keep going on, which shows how tricky some of the areas of thought are.

I can see your point about magical fantasy. Reza Azlan quotes Feuerbach. Part of the problem which I see is that it possible to back up almost all arguments for and against religious viewpoints. I don't know if the problem is subjectivity itself or how difficult it is to frame the questions of religion. I am not sure how far philosophy goes, or whether other disciplines such as anthropology are more helpful. Obviously, each individual comes to some kind of viewpoint, but I presume that within.philosopy, this may encompass a certain amount of rigour, although conclusions may be variable, with no absolutes.

I would definitely agree that religion is not necessarily to achieve 'transcendence'. But, I am still left wondering what is needed, because so much of life is based on ideas of the mundane? What leads people to go beyond the basics, is it questioning, suffering, or some other factors?

I have just been reading, 'God: A Human History of God', by Reza Aslan (2O17), and this may offer an interesting perspective in regard to the question of ultimate 'truths'. However, this author is far from seeing religious ideas and images of God as referring necessarily to a reality beyond human concepts, but as an aspect of thinking, arguing,
' What remains undeniable is that religious belief is so widespread that it must be considered an elemental part of the human experience. '
I wonder how this idea of religious 'truth' stands and how philosophy may aid in bringing forth discussion in the most helpful and critical ways.

There is no easy solutions for forms of suffering, especially emotional pain. It is not like sewing up a bleeding arm. Apart from medications to relieve symptoms like anxiety and depression, there are so many contrasting forms of therapy, especially the psychodynamic and cognitive behavioral approach. From what I have seen some people find different approaches more helpful, and the relationship with the therapist may be a key factor.

Yes, I was horrified at the notion of cognitive hygiene, even when links were given. It seems like cleaning out the negative as if it is 'dirt'. I hope that is not the way forward for management in the mental health professions.

Movements like postmodernism are extremely interesting because they are able to sidestep the big divisions between theism and atheism, as well as between idealism and materialism. That may be where the social sciences come in, by focusing upon the aspects of human nature and cultural constructs. In a way, logical positivism may have paved the way for this to happen by suggesting that metaphysics is pure speculation. In the twentieth first century, there may be a juggling between focusing on social meanings and ideas which can be measured empirically, alongside people going back to the big questions which are both central to religious and philosophical quests.