I have known people diagnosed with mental health problems who have found great meaning in the antipsychiatry movement. When I did my mental health nurse training, I don't think that the approach even got any mention at all. The main way I knew of the antipsychiatry was because I studied the sociology of mental illness as part of sociology 'A' level, meaning that I studied it prior to any formal study of psychiatric disorders. I was really impressed by Laing's book, 'The Divided Self' for his whole critique of the way in which contradictions in messages in socialisation in the family give contradictions messages. I think that this is an important idea which is worth holding on to and should be embraced within psychiatry more.

There is an inherent tension within psychiatry between trying to adjust people to fitting in to the norms of society and of enabling them to find ways of fulfilling their own aspirations. The people who are seen as more outside the norm may be viewed as more unwell. I am sure this varies according to social contexts. Within psychiatry in England, I think that there has been a positive move towards recovery based models of care, which are aimed at people identifying their own goals to work towards. There are even recovery colleges, which run courses for working on specific issues. Another move is the existence of crisis telephone helpline, so I would say that things may be going in a positive direction.

Your point about therapy approaches which don't pathologise but see it as necessary for life issues is important. However, part of the problem comes down to funding. In England, most but not all therapy is costly, whereas you can access it without payment through for free through the NHS system although there are often long waiting lists.However, getting referred for therapy is complex and mostly comes through mental health teams, so that is where the use of diagnosis comes in.
Also, the need for therapy is often seen as based on the severity of the mental health problems. I knew a woman who was fairly pleased when she got diagnosed with borderline personality disorder because she realised on that basis she would be able to access forms of therapy which would have been otherwise not available for her.

Many private therapists work as self-employed and in their own homes. Often, the way they make their living is through giving therapy to trainee therapists. These people are the ones willing to pay because it is mandatory for most trainee therapists to be in therapy while training and many qualified therapists may continue to be in therapy. This means that psychotherapy and art therapy can become almost a closed circle. Also, the person pursuing a career a career in art therapy is also taking the path of personal therapy, and knowing oneself.

You are right to say that Complex Post Traumatic Disorder is a diagnosis in its own right, even though people who have other disorders may have a significant history of trauma. Part of the problem is the whole question of labels. They are useful for clinicians in thinking about treatment options but they can be stigmatising. That was the point I was really making about the label of personality disorder.

In thinking about this, one other area is the antipsychiatry movement. Writers such as RD Laing and Thomas Szaz looked at ways in which diagnostic labels can be used to pathologise misery and suffering. Such writers argued that it created a whole myth of mental illness. This movement went out of fashion, probably because it underplayed the reality of mental illness. However, the antipsychiatry movement does offer some insight for critical thinking about the way psychiatric labels are applied to individuals.

I do agree.The people we turn to for help, including counsellors and therapists, can be the ones who give us the most difficulties. One of the problems can be when they think that they know what's best for us, or even understand us, better than we do ourselves. When I was in therapy, I had a therapist who said he could see what I was saying from a more objective point of view. Even though counsellors and therapists are not meant to give advice, I think that it is likely that many do.

Ultimately, the quest within therapy is to gain self knowledge. This may or may not happen. Sometimes, I find reading books on therapy and related topics better than going to see a therapist. I don't know if this is because it cuts out some of the stress of talking to the other person, although it this would seem to defeat the whole idea of needing to be listened to. Alternatively, I do wonder if it is because the writers of the books are more insightful and wise than the people who have have jobs as therapists. Generally, I find reading books by 'wise' writers one of the best forms of therapy personally, because it often gives me the best insights which I can reflect on in the process of acquiring self knowledge.

I didn't know that Simone Weil was the patron saint of outsiders. That makes me more interested in her because I have always felt like an outsider. One of my favourite books is 'The Outsider" by Colin Wilson. I don't know if you have read it. It looks at a lot of creative people, including many existentialist philosophers. I don't think it mentions her. My copy is in my mother 's house, so I will check whether or not Simone Weil gets a mention in the book when I am able to visit my mother. I find Colin Wilson to be a very interesting writer for the whole way in which he focuses upon the search for peak experiences.

Of course, another option available for some people is over the counter remedies. Doctors seem to have mixed opinions about this and some are opposed to it. I know that most psychiatrists caution against it but that is because it can interact with prescribed medications. In particular, one of the most popular remedies for depression, St John's Wort is dangerous if mixed with prescription antidepressants and other forms of medication.But, once when I went to one GP and said that I felt that I needed something for anxiety and sleeping, the doctor suggested that I went to a health shop and looked for something.

The best remedy I found was Passiflora and I do use it for sleeping frequently and it is virtually free from side-effects. I tried Valerian and it made me feel awful. If I buy any remedy I try to do a bit of research on it. I did try CBD oil capsules briefly and apart from being expensive, I didn't notice anything at all. I have also tried some Bach Flower Remedies and aromatherapy oils and wasn't sure whether they had any effect or not. But, I do think that trying methods to help us relax is worthwhile. However, I think That some people can get carried away with remedies and it can be dangerous if people don't know enough about what they are doing, and, for example, just take mega doses of vitamins which they probably don't need. But I am an experimenter and I even play self hypnosis CDs in bed sometimes.

Yes, one of the big issues for Catholics is abortion and it probably puts women in a lot of conflict. I can remember being at church and hearing the pro-life campaigners. I am not sure what all the other religions think about abortion. I think that the Catholic church is also opposed by contraception but I don't think that many adhere to that. But the idea of sex in the Catholic church is very controversial indeed. One of my memories is being at my local youth club when we was growing up and a song which was often played was, 'Tainted Love'.

Despite my initial dismay when you quoted the Biblical idea of the beast of Revelation, I have come to the conclusion that the idea of the beast is a powerful truth. We probably all have a beast within ourselves and an inner antichrist.

It definitely seems that women are more likely to get diagnosed with borderline whereas men with antisocial personality disorders. I have to say that I find the whole area of personality disorders. However, there is a lot of stigma and I think that the label PTSD would be preferable in many ways. When I worked in an acute admissions unit, a lot of the staff were very judgemental in their attitude and the term 'PD' was often used by some of the staff in a critical tone.

Therapy definitely seems to help with trauma, more especially the psychoanalytic kind because it seems to focus on the past. I have come across people with OCD, who also had a history of trauma and they were given behavior programs to address their OCD and felt that their trauma was ignored in the context of a CBT approach. One other therapy which people often say that they feel benefits trauma is art therapy. I began, but did not complete training in art psychotherapy. Unfortunately, in England and I don't know about in other countries, art therapies seem to be becoming marginalised and I think that this is because they are not seen as cost effective.

I think that it is important to treat depression, but it is getting so common for doctors to prescribe antidepressants routinely. I am not opposed to this but do think that sadness is becoming a bit too overmedicalised. Also, the other complicated is becoming overdependent, upon them and it can be difficult to come off them. I have seen people being treated by ECT as well. I was initially opposed to it, especially as some people experience memory loss due to it. However, it does seem to work wonders for some, especially elderly people. Generally, even doctors don't seem to know why and the way it works is a bit of a mystery. But I am not sure how ECT would address nihilism.

I can think of one connection, which is the homeopathic remedy, Nat Mur. That is made from sodium chloride, obviously in minute proportions because that is how homeopathy works. Nat Mur is one of the essential remedies in homeopathy for a combination of physical and emotional problems.

It does seem that esoteric Christianity was pushed underground, and you are correct in saying that Aquinas and Augustine's interpretation of the Greek writings was central to the way in which mainstream Christians developed.

Most Christians today, as far as I am aware, seem to come from the exoteric angle. I know that many mainstream Christians are opposed to that particular churchI believe that there is one more esoteric in London, St James, in Piccadilly. I have never been, but I might go there, if lockdown restrictions ever end. I do go to an esoteric bookshop in London. They have such an interesting collection and I would imagine there is a section on esoteric Christianity. I definitely plan to explore further.

The quotation from Maurice Nicholi makes a lot of sense to me. I can definitely cope with the move esoteric interpretations of the gospels. I have read some books on this esoteric approach, including one on Celtic Christianity. I would like to read Plotinus too. I have read some of the writings by Rudolf Steiner and Emmanuel Swedenborg , which may be slightly outside of this tradition, but they are also specific esoteric interpretations. I definitely see evolution, as opposed to devolution as being an inner process. That is probably why I read Jung, because he looks at Christianity, including the apocalyptic writings on a symbolic rather literal level. On the subject of the beast, we could say this is probably represented as the collective shadow.

I believe that it is not possible to predict future states of mind, because sometimes it as if they arise out of nowhere, as well as life events being unpredictable. Certainly, that is my own experience. Perhaps, what we are able to do is to think about how depression and nihilism can be distinguished because disentangling the two can be difficult. I have come across people who find this so hard to do because they feel unable to articulate these experiences.

PTSD is a very interesting area in relation to therapy because often people who have this do not get a full response to treatment by medication. They often seek therapy because they need help processing their experience. If people have been in the army they may get diagnosed with PTSD, however, many people who have complex traumatic history get given the label of borderline personality disorder. Have you come across this approach to trauma in the labelling by some professionals?

You mention the ecstatic and I do get states of that too, but I do know some people who experience continual flatness. They are always miserable. I often get euphoric about music and sometimes music about despair enables me to get high, as if it is transmitted.

Yesterday, I had a really strange experience. I had been feeling run down, with a slight sore throat and lack of appetite, but not so bad that I had to stay in bed. My mood was about average and, then, for no apparent reason, I felt this intense warm energy pulsating through my body and a sense of euphoria which lasted for a couple of hours, until I fell asleep. The heat sensation was a strange one because, normally, I don't like being hot, especially in bed. However, this almost felt like some kundalini experience of awakening.

I do agree that it is possible to be ecstatic as a nihilist. However, I believe that it is complicated because for some the nihilism leads to suicidal despair. Some people with despair over lack of meaning in life do present to mental health services, looking for possible interventions. We could ask to what extent is despair a mental health problem?

Yes, I agree that nihilism and depression are rather different, although in some cases there can be an overlap. Nihilism is a way of seeing the world and I have had points of that and it is distinct from clinical depression. However, on a couple of occasions I dwelled on the absence of meaning to the point where I felt depressed. The sense in which I say that I felt depressed was one in the I felt unable to do my usual daily activities.
That is how I consider depression to be and it is as if the world loses its brightness and colour.

It is interesting that you say that you believe that whether your nihilism will come again will depend on stimulus and your own behaviour because that is more how I feel about potential depression than nihilism. However, each person's personal perspective is a bit different. Nihilism for me is more about a philosophy of life, whereas depression is my mood related to events, mainly those in my own life. However, I do see it as a whole blurry spectrum and that is why I brought nihilism into a discussion about therapy.

Do you work in mental health care? I have too, until last May. I am unsure if I plan to go back into this. However, I do experience depression at time, but and do seek help. I think that many are struggling currently but are probably suffering alone. You say about psychosocial interventions but I don't think there is much of that available for people currently.

One idea I would also add for people to think that is one exercise a tutor on a therapy course I was doing. She asked us to imagine what miracle we could imagine what would change our lives. After that, she suggested that we pretend that this miracle had happened and how we would live following that. I found it a useful exercise and it was meant to be a way of thinking of dreams coming true. I found it really got me thinking about actually beginning to overcome obstacles.

What I have become aware of recently is how public policy and government are so bound together. It seems that so many people want protection from the government and when regulations and policies are brought in they just accept with hardly any questions. This whole attitude makes me wonder what will come next, because it would be so easy for any government to introduce any extremely oppressive legislation.

I do believe that we have to try out different options available, and if they are specific psychosocial options we don't have automatic access to them. We may have to be referred for options, including therapy, unless we are able to afford it privately, and the medical clinicians often act as the gatekeepers in deciding what may be offered.

From my experience of working within mental health care, the diagnosis of depression is sometimes complicated. If lack of enjoyment and despair come without other symptoms of clinical depression, such as feelings of low esteem, difficulties sleeping, changes in appetite and other activities of daily living the diagnosis of depression is questionable. In some cases, two different psychiatrists may assess someone and come to differing conclusions. Also, it all depends on what is treatable. Some people seem to respond better to treatment, especially antidepressants, than others. This is sometimes at odds with clear diagnosis categories, and seems to come down to biochemistry. But I am not saying that there is not more to it, such as the wish to feel differently.

I am familiar with depression because I have experienced it personally and I have worked with people experience it in in a mental health care. However, I am pointing to a blurry area for questioning: where do you differentiate between unhappiness and clinical depression? Anhedonia is a very real part of it, because lack of enjoyment colours our whole experience, but I think that it is a very complex topic. The question of nihilism is also about the experience of despair.

I am really concerned about the way people are being offered online therapy. It does seem to suggest the idea of people alone in rooms tapping away on screens, and right now I am aware that I am doing just that. However, I feel that I have fun on the forum for I wonder if that would be the case in online therapy. I am not sure that therapy is meant to be fun, or whether philosophy is is meant to be either, but I cannot believe that it is meant to be all drudgery. There has to be some sense of satisfaction or fulfillment of some kind or another.

When I spoke of the context of the person in the community seeking some kind of support, or therapy, I am thinking of the way in which people's needs may only be met on a shallow level in many communities. I am not saying that everyone's needs are identical and basic human interaction may be the most important for many. However, it may be that family and community life create more conflicts than outlets for some. Often, going to a GP or mental health team may occur within those circumstances.

I think that both medication and life circumstances are important. The question is where can people begin? Medication is meant to be a starting point from which a person can begin to be balanced enough to begin to make changes. However, we could question whether this always happens. Ideally, therapy is a means to explore ways in which that can happen. But I believe that you are right in querying therapy as meaning change rather adjusting. I would imagine that this is a complex spectrum. Perhaps, some would see being without medication of any kind as ideal but it may not be realistic.

So many people in the population are on medication of some kind or another, such as ones for basic physical health, and, surely, medication for depression and anxiety is just as valid. One of the biggest problems for many, including myself, is the being able to sleep and that seems to be a complex mix of physical and mental. I am not sure that it can be addressed fully by therapy alone.

I definitely believe that finding the right therapist is important for most people and that can be a long and arduous task. I have known some people going from therapist to therapist, desperate to find the right person. However, I do wonder how much is about our own individual approach and how much we project onto the expectations of the therapist. I do believe that it is partly relates to where we are and what exactly we are looking for in therapy.

You are the first to speak of the way in which I have mentioned nihilism in my introduction. I am not sure if it is a red herring or not, because I do think that the experiences of nihilism is a position of despair, but it is not simply the experience of depression, or is it? I once knew someone who sought enlightenment and could not find it. He struggled, with extremes of feeling high and low. He spent so much time in bed and felt flat and without any meaning. This seems to me to be the ultimate expression of nihilism. When someone gets to that point it is questionable to me how one can rekindle meaning. If the person was to enter into therapy it is unclear to me whether that would happen or not, because it seems that some powerful insight ot source of inspiration needs to be conjured up for that person. The individual may be seeking this or have gone past looking, but the question is where can it be found?

I think that the question you raise is really interesting. Do we wish to be made less sensitive or more. In a way, medication and even pleasure can have the effect of numbing us. Personally, I have been described as lacking emotion at times, and too emotional at others. Both seem bad, and I am not sure which is worse. Of course, it is also about how we express emotions. When I was on an art therapy course, there seemed to be a lot of emotion and that felt false. However, the point where we switch off emotions is also worrying, and how do we navigate the way to the right balance for our own mental health and that of others?

You are right to say that therapy 'can be a lifesaver, and it can be useless or damaging.' I think that is probably the whole basis for my raising the topic for philosophy debate in the first place.

Actually, when I did undertake psychoanalytic therapy, at times it made me feel much worse about my life. I heard some therapy tutors say that sometimes things have to get worse before they get better. However, I did wonder how far this has to go.

Also, the whole need for therapy is based within cultural contexts. Perhaps, people have no one to turn to in the community and that is why they end up seeking therapy.

You are right to say that there is an incredible amount of stigma surrounding mental illness. I do believe that this prevents many for seeking support.

Also, alcohol represents such a whole area for questioning. So much of social life is embedded in a culture of alcohol. People grow up and are socialised to begin to go to the pub, almost as soon as they outgrow the pub. Alcohol is the legal narcotic. I also tried weed and acid, but the whole process of getting these was a horrible drama in itself, going to strangers and being sold substances which were fake.

But I do believe that so many people are struggling at present, with mental health issues. One of the latest trends is therapy online but I am not convinced that this will be enough for many who are struggling. Also, mental health cannot be separated from real problems in the physical world, including poverty and homelessness. Obviously, the real practical problems need to be addressed but I think some therapy is needed, because people need to be able to talk about their experiences.

Actually, I am extremely interested in esoteric Christianity. I do believe that there is so much inner truth conveyed in ideas such as the transfiguration of Jesus. Probably, the truth of this as well as the mystery of resurrection transcend the whole body and mind problem within philosophy. I am inclined to think that the Eastern perspective of thinking probably has more to offer in understanding the resurrection rather the viewpoint of Western philosophy, as conceived within the Cartesian-Newtonian paradigm.

I think that we are in a time of great contradictions. Personally, I am not denying the importance of the need for restrictions but I am inclined to think that the whole role the government has played in implementing this is questionable because it has made many people feel extremely oppressed. In England, just about everything apart going out to the supermarket has been for forbidden under government law. I don't think that there has ever been such a time of law and order in recorded history. People are feeling like caged animals.

I know that you are not speaking about the current rules and regulations and they may vary from country to country. However, I have wondered if this whole situation might have been better responded to if people had been asked to take care of themselves and others rather than it all being enforced by the government.

I think that I was adding my comment while you were replying. The one thing I would say in response to your last post, is the whole issue of side effects of psychiatric medication. The newer antidepressants are better, but so many medications have effects of weight gain and potential for triggering diabetes.

Nevertheless, untreated mental illness can have a terrible impact, including suicide risk. It would just be so much better if people's difficulties could be addressed at a stage earlier, with a view to people talking about stresses, which when unprocessed, can so easily translate into serious mental illness.

I would just wish to add, by commenting upon your remark about drugs and alcohol. I am not someone who is opposed to some kind of drug experimentation. Most of us are curious to find ways of relaxation. One of the biggest problems connected to using weed is the way in which it is recognised now by many as being a trigger of psychosis. There is the whole field of dual diagnosis of psychosis and substance misuse.

As far as alcohol is concerned, I would say that many people find it helpful in relaxation and for social interaction. However, I have read that there is a rising problem of alcohol misuse in the pandemic and we may not know the full extent at present. Pubs are shut down but when I am in supermarkets I see people piling it into their trolleys. The people drinking alone, with no one to talk to me may be a whole group needing therapy at some point in the future.

I know that your argument is that the idea of individualism as a form of government is seen best in the light of a future cycle of humanity. I think that it would be extremely difficult to see how getting rid of government would work in the current chaos. However, do you think that there are any interim measures which could work, or do you think that it has to be a matter of keeping government as we know it, or do you see any scope for other possibilities in our present times?

Personally, I think that what works is very individual. I remember one art psychotherapy saying that the most important aspect of therapy is having the right therapist. Perhaps, part of this is finding someone to relate too, but I would also think that it has a lot to do with the attitude and knowledge of the therapist. I do believe that becoming a therapist is not a task or profession that should be entered into too lightly as it calls for such depth of understanding.

As far as medication goes, I am not against it if it is necessary. That is because emotional suffering does have such a profound influence upon biochemistry, especially Serotonin and other neurotransmitters. When people get to the point of being psychotic, I do believe, based on my experience of working in mental health care, that it would be detrimental to work with therapy until some antipsychotic medication was offered to address the psychosis at the biochemical level initially.

There is also the question of many other secret societies and movements, such as the Templars, the Rosucrucians and the Cathars. I think that these may have been more esoteric than the Freemasons, and from what I have read the Freemasons had some initial connections with building.

Dare I say it I am listening to BTS. Despite liking alternative music I have a soft spot for boybands ranging from Take That to One Direction. I even have some albums from early boybands of the seventies, including Slik, who was the band Midge Ure was in before Ultravox, and I even listen to the Osmonds, as well as The Jackson Five. I also like a bit of Blur and Oasis.

I think that most people would prefer to be referred to as 'he' or 'she', but a few like the singer, Sam Smith, like 'they'. Probably those who use 'they' are trying to make a statement and if everyone was referred to in that way it would even take away the possibility of such a statement. Generally, I think it is highly unlikely that enough people would choose to be called referred to as 'they'. One art is to try to write or speak without using pronouns at all; it is extremely difficult and has to involve repetition of the person's name. In writing a sentence referring to a general human being rather than a specific one, I think it works to use the term they, rather than clumsy use of he and she.

Aside from pronouns, the whole question of titles is another related one, and I really can't see how they serve any purpose at all. It used to be the case that titles not only showed which gender a person is but whether a person is married or not. However, a lot of women use Ms instead. I believe that this was controversial at first. The writer, Zoe Fairburns, wrote a short story about how she was one of the first to take this on board and described how she was on a bus and how the bus driver was querying what this meant, as if there was something strange about her sex. One recent addition which I have come across is some people have started using the term Mx to be gender non specific. Pronouns are necessary because we have to refer to people, but I just can't see what purpose titles have at all and I think they are outdated and unnecessary.

Really, I prefer to see most people the Bible as allegory. Generally, I do see 'The Book of Revelation' in that way, but I was brought up to see it more literally. However, I have moments where I slip into thinking about the whole Biblical end times. However, I do believe that there have been many points in history when people have thought it previously. I do believe that the early Christians thought it was within their sights. But the 'Book of Revelation' makes so much more sense as a symbolic prophecy rather than as a literal one.