That thought does not lead to freedom and it does not support liberty and leads to authoritarianism. It leads to suffering, not happiness. — Athena

Yeah, unless you're an Orwellian. As the song says

"When you believe in things
That you don't understand,
Then you suffer ..."

:fire:

I like the dictionary definition of "Myth"
"A traditional story, especially one concerning the early history of a people or explaining some natural or social phenomenon, and typically involving supernatural beings or events.
"ancient Celtic myths"

A myth is a story first and formost although it can relate to and refer to much greater complexities.

Also I have a suspician that in earier discussions of "myths" I have read there was lacking a firm awareness of the basic power of tradition. Tradition has always been the sole governing power of all societies up until the recent breakthrough invention of democracy by the Greeks. Tradition directed societies have no other source of direccion and control than their tradition they cling fanatically to their traditions because their loss would mean bloody chaos and death.
Thus a "traditional Myth". May become far more important to the a society than a mere myth.

Am I making any sense?

I think that we are in constant stories, some made by others and those made by others. We can be oppressed by them, or transform them into our own stories of empowerment. The mythic dimension is tapped into by the religious but even science involves a certain amount of myth: the missing link of Darwin's theory, neuroscience and so much more. We are in a constant web of fictive truths and knots, trying to find our way within the maze. Sometimes, it is enough to make me just want to crawl under my duvet, but I do believe that we have to get up, and transform our own lives into the best possible stories, of our own making.

Which social truths are you thinking about? The reason I ask about that is because there are ones which are just about conformity. I definitely believe in communicating with others, and you say it's a bit like art, but I see art and the arts as one of highest forms of communication. — Jack Cummins

I'm just curious about how or why anyone would utilize myths in an individual spiritual pursuit, basically.

I wish to suggest that the main idea which I think is central in the individual mythical and spiritual pursuit is that of transformation.

Yeah, unless you're an Orwellian. As the song says

"When you believe in things
That you don't understand,
Then you suffer ..." — 180 Proof

There needs to be a healthy relationship between knowledge and faith. Gnostic hopes of finding the secret concept that explains all life and makes the future perfect is a desire we unconscious have, but it doesn't seem to be to be consistent with faith being primary in life. Knowledge of faith is important and faith in knowledge can be misleading. There is a lot of moving parts in all of us, and the desire to find the concept that completely and permanently "settles the boat" is probably a pipe dream

That's a pretty good non-sectarian definition of Religion. So, in that case, Albert Einstein was a religious person. But I would distinguish between a personal unofficial Philosophy and a communal doctrinal Religion.

I call my "belief in an unseen order" in Nature, and my attempt to "harmoniously adjust thereto", merely a personal philosophical worldview. However, most people are not so rationally or philosophically inclined; hence their "need" for a religious community of faith & feeling, may result from the cognitive dissonance between their intuition of "Order" in the world, despite the obvious Disorders of life, and their uncertainty about the ambivalent "Unseen" organizer. Having a scriptural authority for your belief, releases you from responsibility for personally resolving the "need" for assurance that someone is in control, and that things are going to be alright.

Those who are philosophically opposed to any form of Supernaturalism or Religion though, may either deny the inherent order of Nature (emphasizing randomness instead), or place their trust in Science (to reveal the self-ordering powers of evolution). :smile:

"I believe in Spinoza's God who reveals himself in the orderly harmony of what exists, not in a God who concerns himself with the fates and actions of human beings."
____Albert Einstein

"there is found a third level of religious experience, even if it is seldom found in a pure form. I will call it the cosmic religious sense. This is hard to make clear to those who do not experience it, since it does not involve an anthropomorphic idea of God; the individual feels the vanity of human desires and aims, and the nobility and marvelous order which are revealed in nature and in the world of thought."
___Albert Einstein, Religion and Science

"We're hand-wired to avoid uncertainty, because it makes us feel lots of negative emotions,"
https://www.cnbc.com/2020/05/17/coronavirus-psychology-of-uncertainty-not-knowing-whats-next.html — Gnomon

Spinoza didn't believe in free will. When I was reading his Ethics at first I thought he was a compatibilist until he directly denied that any free will was real. I would guess Einstein was of the same frame of mind. This is indicated by his desire to fully understand God by finding a scientific "theory of everything". I see this as just Gnosticism

My own perspective is that of being brought up in the Roman Catholic tradition of Christianity. I was an extremely religious teenager and began attending Christianity Union at university, but found that I was at odds with others because I was interested in the whole panorama of comparative religion and could not believe that any one tradition had a monopoly on truth. I am currently outside of any tradition and have a certain sympathy with the deconstruction of religious beliefs, such as the critique offered by Nietzsche. — Jack Cummins

The Catholic Church at Vatican II said it respected most established religions, which means that the Church recognizes more good than bad in them now (in the past non-Christian religions were considered demonic). The Church is very negative about non-established religions however. An example of this is when John Paul II said Buddhism, although "atheist", had a lot of good in it, but then went on to say that the New Age is all bad. Gnosticism has a lot of individually about it, and it is this that the Church is against. The Church can stomach an established religion that denies the Church a divine mandate, but it has problems with individuality, andperhaps rightly.

Interestingly, John Paul II in 1986 had an inter-faith summit in Assisi, wherein he prayed along-side leaders and members of the other world religions. He repeated this in 1993 and 2002, and Pope Benedict also presided over one in 2011. "The Community of Sant’Egidio" organizes inter-faith prayer events every year, and were behind Pope Francis's own one in 2016

My point is that the relationship between two established religions is different from the dynamics involved in the conflict between established faith and individuality

This stuff effects all of us. The Catholic Church has a lot of power in this world and I don't think the world is moving in the direction of more individuality. The Catholic Church explicitly says it wants a new World Order, and all the major religions of the world would play a major, equal part. During his visit to India in February 1982, John Paul II allowed a Hindu priestess to imprint the "mark of Telak" on him. In 1995 in Australia, he had a Mass celebrating the "beatification" of Mary of the Cross, and the usual liturgical "penitential rite" was replaced by a ritual taken from aboriginal fire worship. This desire to codify and coordinate the religions of the world is very real

I wish to suggest that the main idea which I think is central in the individual mythical and spiritual pursuit is that of transformation. — Jack Cummins

We can learn from stories and in a sense be transformed by them in that way. Stories can also reinforce prejudices or influence us in other ways that we may not be entirely aware of, and transform us that way. I suppose that something like a Zen koan could be viewed as a myth that has the potential to transform us in a transcendent way. Not sure what you're suggesting exactly.

When I attended Catholic church services there was more of an emphasis on the ecumenical movement between the Christian churches than with other religions in sermons.When at university, I attended services, I went to services in different denominations and encountered a lot of moral panic about the whole idea of the 'new age.' movement.

I am not sure what to make of the idea of a new world order. I do think that there are ideas around about world governance, and I am suspicious of these. It does sound like a whole picture of centralised control. One movement which I am aware of is that of Share International, which was founded by Benjamin Creme, and seemed to propose the idea of a one world government. Personally, I think that there is a lot going on behind the scenes which we don't know about and that worries me.

The whole idea of transformation which I am talking about is ways we can work on ourselves, including meditations practices and seek out achieve states of peak experiences for ourselves, rather than just follow rituals.

After world war 2 the ideal of a global government gained traction in the Catholic Church and Paul VI wanted the United Nations to be that government. The Popes since Paul VI also speak out for a New world Order, but it's now unclear which political body would take this role. There is a lot stuff behind the scenes of course which we don't see

I don't like discussion to be like wars, as you probably know from my whole thread about people wishing to be right. I do see us as all experimenting with ideas and a certain point of argument seems important to tease out the ideas fully. However, when it all comes down to people becoming really defensive, I end up feeling rather demoralised and depressed. After all, we are just trying to use ideas to serve us and I don't like it to be the other way round. Of course, often religious people have seen the battle being about fighting for the ideas, especially in the Christian tradition it was often viewed as the war of good against evil.

Hey Jack. In my opinion it is because people need a satisfying answer to the most fundamental question in life: what happens when I die?

I see that you mentioned the writer Gary Lachman in one of your posts. I have read a number of books by him and was very impressed by him. He was in the band, Blondie, and married to the lead singer, Debbie Harry, as well. The books which I read by him were on Jung, Madame Blavatsky, Rudolf Steiner, Colin Wilson and one on secret teachers within the Western world. Have you read much in the esoteric tradition?

You won't find that answer until you die

The whole idea of transformation which I am talking about is ways we can work on ourselves, including meditations practices and seek out achieve states of peak experiences for ourselves, rather than just follow rituals. — Jack Cummins

And myths may facilitate this in the ways I mentioned, if not other ways? I'm still curious about exactly what you're talking about. For instance, it isn't clear if you mean consuming or studying the myths of others or generating your own myths. If the latter, how would generating myths lead to peak experiences?

True. But having some form of faith seems to reduce anxiety. At least in me.

I do agree that the central question is what happens when we die and I have engaged in discussion on that topic on this thread. Really, I see it as about the most important question in philosophy, more so than the existence of God, because if there is life after death it will affect us beyond this life, independent of whether or not there is a God.

I find it hard to come to a solid conclusion. So much does seem to involve the body and mind question in philosophy. I am interested in the whole issue of near death experiences but don't think they can be taken at face value because the person was not dead permanently.I would like to believe in reincarnation too, but just because I like the idea doesn't necessarily mean that I think it is necessarily true. What do you think about life after death?

I think everything is a manifestation of energy. That energy manifests itself in me as life. I think about death the same way as going to sleep. Except that you don't wake up in the morning. I do hope that I return to some state of blissful consciousness though. In new age philosophy they call it 'source consciousness'. But I'm not sure whether I believe it exists

I probably mean entering into mythic dimensions in the arts, in experiencing it or creating it. I read a lot of fiction, including fantasy and in listening to music, mostly alternative music. When I listen to music I usually lie in the dark and visualise to it. I have also experimented in trying to use what Jung describes as 'active imagination', in making art. That involves trying to find symbolism from the subconscious in drawing or painting, sometimes with music. I haven't done it recently but would like to do more of this.

I do believe that everything is energy, which is consistent with the new physics and shamanism.I have read quite a bit about shamanism and the writings of Carlos Castaneda. I have heard that Castaneda's writings were probably fiction, but they still are an interesting perspective on reality.

that sounds interesting! I've had some shamanic experiences in 2019 and 2020, which are still very confusing to me up to this day. Coming from a Christian background.
I think I have to take a break for tonight. It's my first day on this website :D

Yes, I will probably interact with you again. It is easy to be up in the night on this site, and I often get up and read messages in the night, which is probably not a very good idea.

Energy: modern physics

Life force: Leibniz

Elan Vital: Bergson

Ashe: African philosophy

Qui: Confucian

Tao: Daoism

Prakriti+Purusha: India

These are all the same I suspect

yeah I imagine it's quite addictive. Good night!

Sounds more like self-discovery/expression than conscious or deliberate transformation.

I see things very differently. Deliberate practice in meditation to relieve general and existential anxiety, and to 'depattern' the mind. Deliberate practice in art to build skill in self-expression. A good practice in creativity is letting your imagination wonder, I think, and tap into the subconscious.

Independently of the whole question of world governance, I do think that there is a lot of recurrence between the ideas, as your equation show. Perhaps what is interesting is the whole division between the exoteric and the esoteric. Really, I have taken more interest in the esoteric side of religion than what the main leaders like the Vatican have to say. However, I think I am logging off for tonight because I am really tired, but if you write a reply to this, I will respond tomorrow.

Sleep well

Prakriti can be seen as yin and Purusa as yang. Indians call their unity Ayus. For most esoteric believers the body has gender but the soul at its higher levels is above gender distinction. This actually seems like a common Eastern idea